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  1. #461
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    My biggest issue with this argument is that, as a healer I'm basically looking to acquire my tier set *for the next tier* because at a decent rate of progression and having a (fairly common) guild philosophy of stacking gear on dps and tanks well before healers, it's very unlikely I will get to use the current tier's set, especially during actual progression. Perhaps this situation is less common then I'm thinking, we did pass up a decent amount of farming in T14 after all. Regardless, I don't share the opinion that a 4pc set can't be better then the following tier's gear - not speaking of this particular case, but in general.
    Next tier perhaps, but the tier following that? Also, if as a member of a stronger guild (yours I believe typically ends up in the top 50 and at least top 100 US overall), you as a healer are only getting your tier shortly before the end of tier, that means that healers who don't get the tier because they were new to their guild or just plain out unlucky with drops/comp stacking are basically fucked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    I understand you don't want to "farm last tier's gear", but what does that mean for those of us who continuously raid from tier to tier? To me it means that we can't have very strong 4pc bonuses because there will always be new players/raiders who will be "disadvantaged" by them. I see no issues with previous tier's having powerful items that last through more than just their respective tier.
    It means that tier bonuses can't be too strong so those who are unlucky enough to not have it are basically bad for progression - either by being new, being a re-roll, or having just taken the initiative and stepped up to a higher level progression guild from a more casual one, or by being just plain unlucky.

    It also means that tier bonuses shouldn't be too weak. This tier I think was bad not just because last tier's bonus was so strong (that it changed the entire rotation of the class), but this tier's set bonus was completely pathetic. If the bonus weren't as strong as T14 but at least visible, perhaps it would be able to compete more with higher stats. It's pretty bad when people are legitimately using LFR tier items over current tier heroic pieces.

    It also means tier bonuses generally can step up over the expansion. The first tier bonus was extremely strong for being an entry-level tier, which, perhaps, should have weaker set bonuses. The final tier bonuses IIRC are typically quite strong, and should be quite strong at that point.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Lantern214 View Post
    Pends on the fight really. Lets take Magerea for example... when a rampage comes up I spam Hr>Hr>HS>Lod or EF (pends on the situation). So I'll go in at 94ish % and come out at 75% pends on what cd was used. However, by the time the next one is up I'm fully regenerated or close to it. Usually end the fight around 35% due to the end. On a fight like Iron Qon, I'll spam the hell out of HR on melee or a clumped up range group. HR>HR>HS> EF>HR>HR>HS>EF, and hover around 50-60% until the end.

    Also, I agree. On 25 man healers have more tools in the shed to utilize then healers on a 10 man stage. However, I've healed on 10man before, and its not as bad as most people believe. Its a hell of a lot easier to EF your entire team, and focus down members who need that holy med assistance. XD
    I hope this answers your question.

    Edit: Typos >:|
    you cant compare 25 with 10man now, because in 10 man, you are never stacked in HM (ok boss 1...and iron qon last phase)
    you simply cant spam HR in 10man...we simply lack on HP generating!
    and EF on much targets is ok for 3-4 people, but not more... but with priest + shaman, the targets are always up, before my holy light is finished

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    healers who don't get the tier because they were new to their guild or just plain out unlucky with drops/comp stacking are basically fucked.
    I completely disagree with this statement as far as the "basically fucked" is concerned. Are you going to get a #1 ranking on WoL - probably not, but you are FAR from being "fucked" without the tier set.


    It means that tier bonuses can't be too strong so those who are unlucky enough to not have it are basically bad for progression - either by being new, being a re-roll, or having just taken the initiative and stepped up to a higher level progression guild from a more casual one, or by being just plain unlucky.
    This benefits the new player, but punishes the consistent one. Aren't there already enough "catch up" mechanisms for new players? Isn't "catching up" or "being behind" something that should be expected as a new raider?

    Honestly, I just don't like the idea of getting mediocre or bad set bonuses because we're afraid strong bonuses will "put some players too far behind" or put too much value in previous content.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    My biggest issue with this argument is that, as a healer I'm basically looking to acquire my tier set *for the next tier* because at a decent rate of progression and having a (fairly common) guild philosophy of stacking gear on dps and tanks well before healers, it's very unlikely I will get to use the current tier's set, especially during actual progression. <snip>
    Realistically in progression raiding, except for the last tier of an expansion which is pure vanity, you're always farming for the next tier's progression. The reason guilds can kill bosses faster at the start of a tier is because their raiders are stacked with bis from the last tier and aren't anywhere near bis when progression is over. Guilds that are slower to progress are further behind in the arms race and constantly trying to play gear catch up from tier to tier.

    I'm looking at our current 4pc set bonus and even though I'm not using it and don't plan to use it to finish progression (DIE LEI SHEN DIIIEEE!!!), I will have it in anticipation of next tier in addition to relevant off pieces since that's pretty much the outfit I can plan on wearing. Gear during farm is meaningless except to plan for next tier.

  5. #465
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    I completely disagree with this statement as far as the "basically fucked" is concerned. Are you going to get a #1 ranking on WoL - probably not, but you are FAR from being "fucked" without the tier set.
    Potentially yes, considering that a tier set that alters rotation (and doesn't just boost ability X or Y) means that it could become more or less required for specific encounters, and the class becomes either OP with the tier set (nerf impending), or balanced around having the tier set (meaning you are bad without it).

    Also, unlike current tier, finishing the tier gets you no chance at improvement. Already, having the previous tier set is an advantage over not having it for progression even if the previous tier set is not BiS for the current tier, and I don't think that is a bad thing. But having it be BiS is completely different. Add in the upgrade system, and you're looking at being significantly behind (and again, with no possible means of catching up).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    This benefits the new player, but punishes the consistent one. Aren't there already enough "catch up" mechanisms for new players? Isn't "catching up" or "being behind" something that should be expected as a new raider?
    But even without the T14 heroic tier set being better than the T15 heroic tier set, the new player already has to "catch up" and is already "behind." The only difference is that the new player, if he's established himself in his new guild or has taken the initiative to push stronger progression in the new tier, actually has a chance to catch up.

    I fail to see, whatsoever, how the consistent player is being "punished" - as both you yourself and Lucy pointed out, the progression gear was farmed last tier, so the consistent player is already ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Honestly, I just don't like the idea of getting mediocre or bad set bonuses because we're afraid strong bonuses will "put some players too far behind" or put too much value in previous content.
    Bad set bonuses are just bad as this tier shows. Overly strong (not strong) bonuses are bad, because then the class either becomes too OP compared to other classes with the bonus, or too bad without the bonus (compared to other classes).

    It's much safer to put stronger bonuses at the end of the expansion, because all heal bonuses can be made equally strong, and you can assume over the course of the tier that most players will obtain the tier, whether by Heroic, Normal, or LFR.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-05-28 at 09:31 PM.

  6. #466
    Man this new rotation actually feels worse then brainlesly spamming HS and EF on targets with the occasional HR.
    Feels like it's going at a snails pace, especially considering haste is at it's minimal. (haste? MASTERIH!)
    Too bad I can't make a Priest work for his spot anymore either.

  7. #467
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    I'm sorry that not having had 4pc and having to have used HR to generate HP all tier has made me have absolutely no sympathy for people complaining about losing 4pc now.

    I do agree (as I mentioned earlier) that priests are getting too dominant since they took significantly less of a hit than we did with mastery.

  8. #468
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I do agree (as I mentioned earlier) that priests are getting too dominant since they took significantly less of a hit than we did with mastery.
    Monks as well(they needed buffed why?). It reminds me of the monk earlier crying HS was too OP when monks can just spam double tap soothing mists and get endless chi while barely moving their mana pool.

    If they nerf EF and do further nerfs on our mastery they will need to compensate, that is all there is to it.

  9. #469
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    If they nerf EF and do further nerfs on our mastery they will need to compensate, that is all there is to it.
    Right, you mean like with a new(er) Daybreak? Ha!

  10. #470
    I only switched from 4-set 496 to the new tier when I knew for sure it was going to out compete the 4 set which was when I basically had full 522/535 mastery pieces and tier helm and chest a few weeks back. It's a slower way of playing but I think everyone knew that. The adjustment is hard and in fact at the beginning partially the reason for lower healing is I kept spamming the holy shock button to no avail for around 1-2 seconds. No one likes nerfs but I think this nerf achieved what it was intended to do which was to level us out with other healers like resto druids or monks. What it absolutely didn't do was level out discipline priests to the same as other healers. It's just getting old this process of giving us something great, realizing later that it was OP and then taking it away.

  11. #471
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Right, you mean like with a new(er) Daybreak? Ha!
    Yea maybe actually buff it this time!

    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    I only switched from 4-set 496 to the new tier when I knew for sure it was going to out compete the 4 set which was when I basically had full 522/535 mastery pieces and tier helm and chest a few weeks back. It's a slower way of playing but I think everyone knew that. The adjustment is hard and in fact at the beginning partially the reason for lower healing is I kept spamming the holy shock button to no avail for around 1-2 seconds. No one likes nerfs but I think this nerf achieved what it was intended to do which was to level us out with other healers like resto druids or monks. What it absolutely didn't do was level out discipline priests to the same as other healers. It's just getting old this process of giving us something great, realizing later that it was OP and then taking it away.
    Monks were not in a bad spot in the slightest. They were pretty much equal with us and have now pulled ahead.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-28 at 10:14 PM.

  12. #472
    We had disc priest try to complain he was now the worst healing class because of their nerfs... lol?

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    The adjustment is hard and in fact at the beginning partially the reason for lower healing is I kept spamming the holy shock button to no avail for around 1-2 seconds.
    The first raid after the patch had a raider go panic-mode for not sniping away his damage taken by HS and dieing afterwards.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Hycaria View Post
    Ok !

    I tried your macro (I had a separate beacon-mouseover macro), and it's working weird, on the second FoL only the beacon is on, is it intended ? And seems to be even worse when i'm spamming too much my key eheh (which i do all the time ofc!).
    Edit : ok, deleted the reset = 3, but still switching beacon on the second FoL

    I guess I'll also glyph it on durumu when we try it hc.

    Edit 2 : About the HR, i forgot that voidspark is playing 25man, where it's obviously more interesting... those 25 man folks have it easy !
    Try changing it to reset=4

    About the beacons switching, that's what it's supposed to do, switching the beacon to the current target you're using FoL or DL on, so you get more holy power.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I'm sorry that not having had 4pc and having to have used HR to generate HP all tier has made me have absolutely no sympathy for people complaining about losing 4pc now.
    Think about all the 10 man folk who can't get on their high horse like you because HR only really sees use in periodic 'stack and heal' mechanics.

    You can partially negate a 6 second HS in 25 man because you can always HR / HS on the melee for decent healing and good HP generation. 10 man paladins don't have that luxury. HS is your only option unless you want to waste a DL on the beacon. The result is slow HP generation that you can't really speed up unless you're willing to drop 20k mana into overhealing in one way or another.

    An easy solution to level the playing field between 10 and 25 would be a glyph to alter how HR works. Reduce the potential healing output and give it a target cap but make it Circle of Healing with a cast time. That way 10s will take the glyph for spread fights as a way of group healing and generating HP. 25s would almost always keep the current version provided the numbers were balanced as focusing the melee is an option in 25s that isn't present in 10s.

    Honestly though, for 10s, I miss a 4 second HS regardless. It made us powerful spot healers with tank support which is what I feel like paladins should be. I think EF made us into something we were never supposed to be. I'd love to see it removed and something else put in its place. That way HS could run with a baseline 4 second cooldown. The problem was never HS healing (which slips further down our total healing with each tier) but how many EFs we could throw out with it, accumulating mastery shields in the process. I think as a class we're going to pay the price for having EF in nerfs to other abilities that don't need nerfing rather than EF itself. I'd rather see it gone.
    Last edited by Pasture; 2013-05-28 at 10:20 PM.

  16. #476
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Can we really get off this 10m vs 25m talk? I have healed both and yea while it sucks that HR isn't as useful, you have an easier time actually EF blanketing the whole raid in 10m. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

    The nerfs hurt both. And on 25m there are more healers snipping our heals to even make slow cast time HR that useful anyways

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Can we really get off this 10m vs 25m talk? I have healed both and yea while it sucks that HR isn't as useful, you have an easier time actually EF blanketing the whole raid in 10m. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

    The nerfs hurt both. And on 25m there are more healers snipping our heals to even make slow cast time HR that useful anyways
    Ignoring 25s completely, HP generation is too slow in 10 mans. There just aren't enough tools to generate HP. And EF blanketing the raid has taken a hit now anyway outside of Holy Avenger or Divine Purpose procs. I could care less about 10s vs 25s but they need to balance paladins (and probably shamans too) a little better across the two sizes.

  18. #478
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    HP generation is slow on 25m as well. You really think casting HR is making up for the loss of the t14 4p, you are wrong.

  19. #479
    Even in 10 mans, if your end goal is HP generation or healing, HR beats out DL. It's comes with a bit more of thinking in the sense that you can't just pick someone and have HR hit 3+ people but just thinking about it a little bit before hand, you typically hit at least 3 targets with HR. It's only in single-target healing that DL will beat out HR. In fact with the 4-set T15 this actually makes HR very competitive with DL in single target healing.

    Completely agree with your point about the spot healing. It was never the nerf to the healing meters that I was really concerned about, but losing the role of healing up spotty but moderately high damage on the raid or tank. Still not sure what to think about changing EF though...
    Last edited by monikasun88; 2013-05-28 at 10:33 PM.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    HP generation is slow on 25m as well. You really think casting HR is making up for the loss of the t14 4p, you are wrong.
    I think it helps limit the impact, yes. It doesn't make up for dropping the 4pc but it does reduce the fall off in HP generation.

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