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  1. #481
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    I think it helps limit the impact, yes. It doesn't make up for dropping the 4pc but it does reduce the fall off in HP generation.

    The nerfs are effecting 25m just as much as 10m. The only nerf I would think would effect you more possible was the daybreak change, since even before the patch you should have been casting HR more than you make it out since daybreak was also a buff to single target healing from HS.

  2. #482
    I would rather see a slight "adjustment" to EF and a buff to LoD to make the decision between using our HP spenders a little more obvious. The reason no one uses LoD and does the EF blanket is it's just a better way to spend HP. We got a tiny LoD buff in 5.1 but it hasn't been touched since. To me that's the bigger problem.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    The nerfs are effecting 25m just as much as 10m. The only nerf I would think would effect you more possible was the daybreak change, since even before the patch you should have been casting HR more than you make it out since daybreak was also a buff to single target healing from HS.
    They obviously didn't like that mechanic (and rightly so - it was daft - though dropping even more insane heals on the person next door is even more daft now I will agree). I'd rather see them make HR usable in 10s in a more intuitive way. A glyph just seems like the obvious option to prevent it impacting on 25s.

  4. #484
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    They obviously didn't like that mechanic (and rightly so - it was daft - though dropping even more insane heals on the person next door is even more daft now I will agree). I'd rather see them make HR usable in 10s in a more intuitive way. A glyph just seems like the obvious option to prevent it impacting on 25s.
    When I did 10m, I found HR perfectly fine. I also don't really think the buffs to revitalize, tranq, etc. for 25m were necessary. I never found holy paladins weak in the slightest in a 10m setting or needing buffs. They were actually stronger in 10m when comparing them to other healers. Your single target heals are more usable in 10m while they are pretty much not worth casting in 25m. Should they work on changing that?

    Also if they made a glyph to make it so HR was an aoe smart heal like CoH, every paladin would take it--10m or 25m.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-28 at 11:06 PM.

  5. #485
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Think about all the 10 man folk who can't get on their high horse like you because HR only really sees use in periodic 'stack and heal' mechanics.
    Trivia: I started out this expansion (without any 4 set) in 10m, that was the format I initially learned the class (going from LFR to heroics without doing the normal fights, by the way). Still no sympathy.

    I'm not against lower HS cooldown, but again, PvP problems make balance annoying. Would mean a restructure of the class.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-05-28 at 11:42 PM.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    When I did 10m, I found HR perfectly fine. I also don't really think the buffs to revitalize, tranq, etc. for 25m were necessary. I never found holy paladins weak in the slightest in a 10m setting or needing buffs. They were actually stronger in 10m when comparing them to other healers. Your single target heals are more usable in 10m while they are pretty much not worth casting in 25m. Should they work on changing that?
    Oh I don't disagree that Paladins were strong in 10s. Too strong. 4pc HP generation just felt right. I remember commenting at the start of the expansion that HP generation was too slow. We're back there now.

    All healers have less use for their single target cast heals in 25s. That's just the way of 25s. I personally don't enjoy healing 25s. The reverse isn't true, however, for 10s. Most 10 man healers can use the majority of their AoE healing tookit in 10s. It's primarily shamans and paladins who suffer in terms of what they can bring to the table on spread AoE in 10s.

    Aside from that, the fact you don't spot heal as much in 25s shouldn't be an argument against more workable AoE in 10s. I think 25s is too AoE focused. I think there isn't enough spot healing there. But ultimately I rarely raid 25s so that's not my case to argue. There are people better placed to put forward that case. If you think healing needs tweaking in 25s then by all means argue your case. Just don't use it as justification for not tweaking it in 10s.

    Also if they made a glyph to make it so HR was an aoe smart heal like CoH, every paladin would take it--10m or 25m.
    I'm just throwing out ideas. Not perfect by any means. It would need balancing to make it punitive if used across the board. Make it so with the glyph it no longer activates Daybreak, which can amount to 5% healing or so in 25s. On stacked fights a 10 man paladin might even prefer it unglyphed.

  7. #487
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    I would rather see a slight "adjustment" to EF and a buff to LoD to make the decision between using our HP spenders a little more obvious. The reason no one uses LoD and does the EF blanket is it's just a better way to spend HP. We got a tiny LoD buff in 5.1 but it hasn't been touched since. To me that's the bigger problem.
    Personally that's my opinion about EF, it should be a baseline ability and replaced by another single-target-only talent (my idea was a random proc single-target heal, to complement a proactive and reactive talent). Then LoD should be the standard raid heal (needs buffs), EF should be a standard single-target heal/HoT and just be an improved WoG.

    The HoT is there to give an alternative to LoD because after all, even as Blizzard said they are moving gameplay toward HoTs, it complements nicely with shields (just perhaps is overtuned numbers-wise now), and makes the class less of a "tank-healer-only" role.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Trivia: I started out this expansion (without any 4 set) in 10m, that was the format I initially learned the class (going from LFR to heroics without doing the normal fights, by the way). Still no sympathy.

    I'm not against lower HS cooldown, but again, PvP problems make balance annoying. Would mean a restructure of the class.
    You could probably nerf the actual heal of HS without too much detriment to PvE if you lowered it's cooldown. It's primarily used in 10s to spot heal relatively minor damage so could take a drop. I'll be honest though, I haven't touched PvP this expansion so I'm in no position to comment on PvP ramifications.

  9. #489
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    You could probably nerf the actual heal of HS without too much detriment to PvE if you lowered it's cooldown. It's primarily used in 10s to spot heal relatively minor damage so could take a drop. I'll be honest though, I haven't touched PvP this expansion so I'm in no position to comment on PvP ramifications.
    You don't need to nerf the actual heal of HS in PvE, I don't think even with a 5 second CD (and same amount) it would be overpowered there. With PvP it makes the class significantly better just because you get more instant heals, a lot more (the HS itself, more fast-cast heals, and more HP for yet more instant heals).

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Personally that's my opinion about EF, it should be a baseline ability and replaced by another single-target-only talent (my idea was a random proc single-target heal, to complement a proactive and reactive talent). Then LoD should be the standard raid heal (needs buffs), EF should be a standard single-target heal/HoT and just be an improved WoG.
    If you were going this route I think it best EF would have a hot along the lines of the old HR or Wild Growth, ie 3-5 seconds. A bonus rather than a real hot. Otherwise EF still competes and wins out against LoD

    The HoT is there to give an alternative to LoD because after all, even as Blizzard said they are moving gameplay toward HoTs,
    I took from that Blizzard quote they want some fights for druids to shine rather than they want everyone to be able to hot.

  11. #491
    Pit Lord Mifuyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    You don't need to nerf the actual heal of HS in PvE, I don't think even with a 5 second CD (and same amount) it would be overpowered there. With PvP it makes the class significantly better just because you get more instant heals, a lot more (the HS itself, more fast-cast heals, and more HP for yet more instant heals).
    Maybe but if people could choose between either a 4 sec CD and -33% healing or a 6 sec CD with no minus healing, I pretty much know what people will take.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...fuyne/advanced
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  12. #492
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    stuff

    Paladins in 25m are aoe healing using EF blanketing mostly just like 10m paladins. HR isn't amounting to that much healing, it is a tool for HP. Look at HR overhealing on most paladins on 25m. It is really high, and it usually equals about the same percentage of healing done as 10m paladins. As said you will in 10m be able to stack eternal flame on the whole raid, we will not. So if we want to make things equal out. How about for every Eternal flame we in 25m put out, it is put on another target as well(sarcasm). Your posts now are basically coming across as complaining about 10m being harder and asking for special treatment when the nerfs affected both formats about equally.



    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I'm not against lower HS cooldown, but again, PvP problems make balance annoying. Would mean a restructure of the class.
    I really don't think the pvp implications would be that severe. Holy paladins are not doing very well in PvP atm. Mastery is getting double dipped by Battle Fatigue and they are easily cc-ed and killed. They are only really viable in rush and zerg comps.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-29 at 04:36 AM.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Your posts now are basically coming across as complaining about 10m being harder and asking for special treatment when the nerfs affected both formats about equally.
    If that's what you've taken away you've misinterpreted the posts. We'll agree to disagree.

  14. #494
    I've switched to crit build to check how it does, if someone is interested here are the logs and armory:

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/es/characte...smith/advanced
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...c15r/rankinfo/

    Today i'll add more logs. For the moment it looks decent but i still think i can heal more with a mastery build..

  15. #495
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    If that's what you've taken away you've misinterpreted the posts. We'll agree to disagree.

    "Think about all the 10 man folk who can't get on their high horse like you because HR only really sees use in periodic 'stack and heal' mechanics."

    "I think it helps limit the impact, yes. It doesn't make up for dropping the 4pc but it does reduce the fall off in HP generation."

    "An easy solution to level the playing field between 10 and 25"

    Implying that 4p nerf has less impact on 25m. It didn't. Any "misinterpretation" are results of your actual posts. Look at logs, there isn't that much of a difference in the amount of healing HR does on 25m and 10m. Doesn't look like there needs to be a change specific to 10m.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Paladins in 25m are aoe healing using EF blanketing mostly just like 10m paladins.
    Garalon was EF blanketting. Effective raid healing on your average ToT fight using EF is not 'blanketing' and HR amounts to a fairly substantial portion of aoe healing in most real-world scenarios. Many paladins are using HR primarily as an HP generation tool, but that is spirit-dependent, as those running low spirit or less geared cannot afford to do. There are not many situations where it is effective to put 1HP EFs on the whole raid, but I guess if you want to run 16k+ spirit and be inefficient more power to you. That doesn't really have much bearing on paladin short term aoe HPM which is bad in 25 and worse in 10m.

    That said I think paladins are perfectly fine post-nerf in 10m and I actually have no idea what this discussion is about so I'm going to leave now :3

  17. #497
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Garalon was EF blanketting. Effective raid healing on your average ToT fight using EF is not 'blanketing' and HR amounts to a fairly substantial portion of aoe healing in most real-world scenarios. Many paladins are using HR primarily as an HP generation tool, but that is spirit-dependent, as those running low spirit or less geared cannot afford to do. There are not many situations where it is effective to put 1HP EFs on the whole raid, but I guess if you want to run 16k+ spirit and be inefficient more power to you. That doesn't really have much bearing on paladin short term aoe HPM which is bad in 25 and worse in 10m.

    That said I think paladins are perfectly fine post-nerf in 10m and I actually have no idea what this discussion is about so I'm going to leave now :3
    Garalon is not anywhere near the only fight in the game EF blanketing is effective on. Effective raid healing in ToT using EF is "blanketing". Look at logs and actually see how much healing HR is doing on 25m and how much overhealing it is generating. At most it is amounting to like 11% of your total healing while mostly being at around 8-9%.

    If you run too low on spirit to cast HR to make up for the HP generation loss from the T14 nerf, it has a greater effect on your healing in 25m than it would in 10m. If you can't reliably raid heal on 25m, why bring you? In 10m though, our single target heals are still worth casting so you are still going to have impact. Also in 10m you are more likely to be able to get in melee depending on your comp, while 25m it doesn't matter you will always have enough melee to make this unfeasible on the majority of fights.

    Look at raid bots, you see a decent drop in Paladin healing in 25m heroic, while 10m heroic didn't really change much.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-29 at 02:53 PM.

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Honestly though, for 10s, I miss a 4 second HS regardless. It made us powerful spot healers with tank support which is what I feel like paladins should be. I think EF made us into something we were never supposed to be. I'd love to see it removed and something else put in its place. That way HS could run with a baseline 4 second cooldown. The problem was never HS healing (which slips further down our total healing with each tier) but how many EFs we could throw out with it, accumulating mastery shields in the process. I think as a class we're going to pay the price for having EF in nerfs to other abilities that don't need nerfing rather than EF itself. I'd rather see it gone.
    This, this and again, this.

    Infracted. Please post constructively. ~Fhi
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-05-29 at 04:49 PM.

  19. #499
    Only thing this patch achieved was letting disc way ahead again. GG blizzard.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Implying that 4p nerf has less impact on 25m. It didn't. Any "misinterpretation" are results of your actual posts. Look at logs, there isn't that much of a difference in the amount of healing HR does on 25m and 10m. Doesn't look like there needs to be a change specific to 10m.
    You said:

    "Your posts now are basically coming across as complaining about 10m being harder."

    Which they weren't. Nothing to do with 10 man vs 25 man difficulty at all. My issue is slow HP generation in 10s. It has nothing to do with 10s or 25s being harder. 25 man raid regen and melee clumps support greater HR use to bolster HP regen. My personal experience is that it is more difficult to prop up HP generation in 10s than it is in 25s. You obviously disagree and that's fine. Nothing to do with 10s being 'harder' though, which is not something I even think.....

    It's not even to do healing power. Paladins were too strong before. I could win out on absolutely every fight against better geared healers. Now fights that aren't favourable for Paladins I can't win out on, as it should be.

    My complaint is how play feels with slower HP generation. 4pc T14 HP generation felt like the kind of speed we should always have had. You think it's fine. That's cool. Difference of opinions.

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