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  1. #501
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    You said:

    "Your posts now are basically coming across as complaining about 10m being harder."

    Which they weren't. Nothing to do with 10 man vs 25 man difficulty at all. My issue is slow HP generation in 10s. It has nothing to do with 10s or 25s being harder. 25 man raid regen and melee clumps support greater HR use to bolster HP regen. My personal experience is that it is more difficult to prop up HP generation in 10s than it is in 25s. You obviously disagree and that's fine. Nothing to do with 10s being 'harder' though, which is not something I even think.....

    It's not even to do healing power. Paladins were too strong before. I could win out on absolutely every fight against better geared healers. Now fights that aren't favourable for Paladins I can't win out on, as it should be.

    My complaint is how play feels with slower HP generation. 4pc T14 HP generation felt like the kind of speed we should always have had. You think it's fine. That's cool. Difference of opinions.
    I never said I think HP generation was fine. I just don't think it is faster on 25m than 10m as you yourself said it was. You are saying the nerfs affected 10m and they haven't. Your posts have definitely implied it is harder for you to heal 10m than 25m. You have basically implied that we can just spam HR to make up for the loss in HP generation and 10m is just screwed.

    I also don't think Holy Paladins were too good. An equally geared and skilled Disc priests were just as good if not better. And monks would have a very good shot at pulling the same or even higher numbers on fights, especially on 25m heroic. Disc priests got nerfed a little but it hardly slowed them down any and monks got buffed.

    And what do you mean "no fights that aren't favorable for Paladins"? And you won out on absolutely every fight? If you were beating disc priests on Horridon and Monks on Heroic Tortos, they were doing something horribly wrong.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-29 at 05:20 PM.

  2. #502
    I raid 25m Heroics and I recently went to a full mastery build (durumu gloves, animus pants, jin'rokh chest). I still gem'd spirit and went spirit as my primary stat.
    I do NOT like it. It got my mastery to ~37% raid buffed, 16k spirit, but my haste dropped to 1.2k.

    The mastery build put up decent numbers, but it was so slow...it felt as if my HP generation was abysmal. I try to be in melee as much as possible for mana and I also like to get a crusader strike in when my meta gem procs for HP generation. That being said, I switched back to 4 piece just to get a little more crit and haste. I really want the 3506 haste breakpoint for an extra tick of EF.

    A full mastery build is sooo slow for HP generation that I just don't like it.
    That being said, even with more haste, our healing style has become VERY lackluster. It just seems...I don't know - slow maybe?
    Last edited by mcbubble; 2013-05-29 at 06:25 PM.

  3. #503
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I raid 25m Heroics and I recently went to a full mastery build (durumu gloves, animus pants, jin'rokh chest). I still gem'd spirit and went spirit as my primary stat.
    I do NOT like it. It got my mastery to ~37% raid buffed, 16k spirit, but my haste dropped to 1.2k.

    The mastery build put up decent numbers, but it was so slow...it felt as if my HP generation was abysmal. I try to be in melee as much as possible for mana and I also like to get a crusader strike in when my meta gem procs for HP generation. That being said, I switched back to 4 piece just to get a little more crit and haste. I really want the 3506 haste breakpoint for an extra tick of EF.

    A full mastery build is sooo slow for HP generation that I just don't like it.
    That being said, even with more haste, our healing style has become VERY lackluster. It just seems...I don't know - slow maybe?
    The whole HP system for Holy just needs an overhaul. Atm, we effectively (key word here) have 2 ways to generate HP, Holy Shock and Holy Radiance. You cannot count CS since it requires melee range but you cannot sit in melee for every fight since ranged abilities target H Paladins and can chain to the melee/tank. And you cannot rely on ToR as a generator either since it requires a lot of useless healing on a beaconed target and usually requires endless beacon swapping. Sure, you can twist the system to grab more HP, but the average player isn't going to have that ability and we all know every change made in this game is based around that "average" player.

    I'd like to see a revision of beacon. It's an old mechanic that doesn't really fit the current style of play they have pushed healers into. It would be nice to see some mechanic that heals players around the beacon target with single target heals (HL, FoL, DL, WoG/EF to the beacon) and AoE abilites heal the beacon target (HR and LoD). This way you could mix and match the heals and not have to worry too much about swapping the beacon around constantly. Just something off the top of my head.

    We also really need another HP generating ability on a longer CD to fill the gaps. Something like Exorcism for Rets (15 sec CD) that doesn't need to reset (Art of War). Doesn't need to be 15 seconds, but there needs to be something, imo, to fill in the gaps that HS on CD and not enough targets together for HR while avoiding melee range.

    Or take H Paladin off the list of targeted for ranged effects and let us sit in melee and auto attack/use CS. (Might be the easiest fix, but not what I would like :P)

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Your posts have definitely implied it is harder for you to heal 10m than 25m.
    Well that's not what I actually think.

    I also don't think Holy Paladins were too good. An equally geared and skilled Disc priests were just as good if not better. And monks would have a very good shot at pulling the same or even higher numbers on fights, especially on 25m heroic. Disc priests got nerfed a little but it hardly slowed them down any and monks got buffed.

    And what do you mean "no fights that aren't favorable for Paladins"? And you won out on absolutely every fight? If you were beating disc priests on Horridon and Monks on Heroic Tortos, they were doing something horribly wrong.
    I felt too good in 10s, but I raid with a Holy Priest and a Shaman. The difference was quite often really considerable but they're probably the weakest classes so that will explain half of it. And yes, with the 4pc every fight. Without it's more of an even playing field. Hard to quantify the mastery nerf for me because I dropped my 4pc at the same time.

  5. #505
    I would like BattleHealer glyph to be 100% for Holy and work with ranged abilities. Would have to be 100% as Denounce does far less damage than smite.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishau View Post
    I would like BattleHealer glyph to be 100% for Holy and work with ranged abilities. Would have to be 100% as Denounce does far less damage than smite.
    That would be pretty strong. 1.3 second 50k denounce smart heals. It would push Holy Light right out of our toolkit (not that we use it a great deal anyway).

  7. #507
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    If they ever did go that route, it wouldn't be 100%. They just nerfed atonement, they wouldn't let paladins have it.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    That would be pretty strong. 1.3 second 50k denounce smart heals. It would push Holy Light right out of our toolkit (not that we use it a great deal anyway).
    Sounds 100% like atonement. Way too OP. Let the OP healing class have that.

  9. #509
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishau View Post
    Would have to be 100% as Denounce does far less damage than smite.
    Looking at my logs, our disc priest's smite is hitting for an average 58k. Only buffed with kings my denounce is hitting for 45-50k and criting for 85-95k. Where are you getting smite does more damage from? Looks about the same.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-29 at 09:14 PM.

  10. #510
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishau View Post
    I would like BattleHealer glyph to be 100% for Holy and work with ranged abilities. Would have to be 100% as Denounce does far less damage than smite.
    If I wanted that, I'd play a Disc (I don't :P).

  11. #511
    High Overlord cakin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishau View Post
    I would like BattleHealer glyph to be 100% for Holy and work with ranged abilities. Would have to be 100% as Denounce does far less damage than smite.
    Disc was designed in MoP as being more inline with a hybrid player than a "pure" healer. They were supposed to bring good healing and good dps. However their healing is through the roof while still doing good damage.

    That being said dont make me a hybrid class. If I wanted to do that I'd play disc.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by cakin View Post
    That being said dont make me a hybrid class. If I wanted to do that I'd play disc.
    I'd like it even they gave us some support for ranged attacking rather than melee. Give the effects of CS and melee for mana to some ranged spell instead. I wouldn't mind it if weaving in the occasional Denounce or Hammer near the end of a fight gave us some bonus benefit like CS / melee. The hard part would be making it not feel mandatory.

  13. #513

  14. #514
    Feels like many of you are overreacting to this patch nerf, but maybe that's because I have a rather decently geared paladin. I don't feel that paladins are worse at every fight at all. Before the patch we topped pretty much every together with disc priests. Perhaps disc priests require some adjusting aswell as druids after this patch, but if you're so against this new 'slow' playstyle then there are many other healing classes you could reroll. Imagine how shamans feel

    Edit: To clarify, the issue is mainly with absorbs at this point, and I think that if they rework the potency of absorbs in general I'm sure our healing outside of IH will look a lot more significant.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Looking at my logs, our disc priest's smite is hitting for an average 58k. Only buffed with kings my denounce is hitting for 45-50k and criting for 85-95k. Where are you getting smite does more damage from? Looks about the same.
    Denounce does more damage, and scales better. It also costs 4 times as much mana so would need a major rework for it to be a 'playstyle'. (9.7% vs 2.4%)

    personally, HS/denounce spam would be far too atonementesque. Don't really like the idea. I like the fact that we have to factor in mana management if we want to do good damage.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-01 at 01:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by fjeenzy View Post
    Feels like many of you are overreacting to this patch nerf, but maybe that's because I have a rather decently geared paladin. I don't feel that paladins are worse at every fight at all. Before the patch we topped pretty much every together with disc priests. Perhaps disc priests require some adjusting aswell as druids after this patch, but if you're so against this new 'slow' playstyle then there are many other healing classes you could reroll. Imagine how shamans feel

    Edit: To clarify, the issue is mainly with absorbs at this point, and I think that if they rework the potency of absorbs in general I'm sure our healing outside of IH will look a lot more significant.
    No, our healing outside of absorbs is shit. We have horrible output, no burst aoe healing, and not even the big single target heals that priests/shamans have.

  16. #516
    Yes, our healing outside of absorbs is indeed shit. Which is why the absorbs in general needs reworking. How they decide to resolve that after that is a bigger mystery. My point wasn't that we had no flaws, it was rather that there's no way the paladin class will get all of those features you're describing. Personally I'd be surprsied if we'd ever get quick aoe healing, I much prefer holy radiance as it is now. I can completly agree with you it's very stupid and questionable as to why we don't have the big single target heal. I'd assume the reason divine light is healing for so much less than the priest and shamans equivalent is because of the fact the absorb would go off the roof. Not a very hard issue to work around for them developers though.

  17. #517
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Denounce does more damage, and scales better. It also costs 4 times as much mana so would need a major rework for it to be a 'playstyle'. (9.7% vs 2.4%)

    personally, HS/denounce spam would be far too atonementesque. Don't really like the idea. I like the fact that we have to factor in mana management if we want to do good damage.
    Just as a note, a priests base mana is 300k which puts smite at roughly 8.1k mana versus the 5820 mana cost of denounce since a paladins is 60k base mana.

  18. #518
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    Just as a note, a priests base mana is 300k which puts smite at roughly 8.1k mana versus the 5820 mana cost of denounce since a paladins is 60k base mana.
    And that's actually 5040 mana, since you're looking at a 5 stack of Evangelism.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-01 at 03:23 AM.

  19. #519
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    And that's actually 5040 mana, since you're looking at a 5 stack of Evangelism.
    Still isn't 1/4 of the cost as stated ^^, but I noted it more to show this over anything else, so I didn't include Evangelism stacks when Atonement healing.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    Just as a note, a priests base mana is 300k which puts smite at roughly 8.1k mana versus the 5820 mana cost of denounce since a paladins is 60k base mana.
    Good point; forgot about this sorry!

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