You conveniently also forgot to mention weaknesses, such as inability to deal with AoE physical damage (though we do have BOPs which can help in other ways) as well as inability to spread-heal effectively. How's that Renewing Mist glyph?
I'm not denying that we're decent healers because I agree we are, and we're probably one of the more versatile healers in game with few weaknesses. That problem is not solved by creating more weaknesses (which we do have some), but by fixing larger weaknesses for other heal classes (shaman/druid) and giving them some more strengths where they currently don't have as many.
I think you vastly overestimate how good EF is as a whole, and a big part of why paladins were so overpowered at the start of the tier - T14 4pc, which removed a lot of the class weaknesses by fundamentally altering how the rotation worked and allowed for such massive amounts of blanket healing/shields - was nerfed as it should have been.
Every spec performs roughly the same under high damage conditions, paladins being the exception and far ahead of everyone else when taking into account effective health on high magic damage encounters. Holy Paladins also completely leech heals under any kind of moderate damage situation, and steal game play from other healers. If EF was removed, you'd still have a very strong hitting AE rotation with HR, Daybreak, and Hammer.
The only thing that would change if EF was removed is your ability to cheaply stack shields to ridiculous levels during low damage periods, and the ability to steal heals from restoration druids and mistweavers. Now you've got to understand, Holy Paladins have absolutely no weaknesses right now. They are exceptional at everything, and it's pretty ridiculous. You're brilliant tank healers even without constant EF ticks funneling to beacon, you're brilliant raid healers stacked or spread, you have brilliant cooldowns for mitigation and throughput, you have outrageous shielding potential, and you have amazing single target cooldowns.
It's funny that you claim EF is the only thing keeping paladins competitive, I used to play holy paladin in cataclysm. We were still exceptional, even without mastery applying to overheals, without it stacking at all, and without it applying to overhealing. Even when holy radiance was a passive HoT with a 20 second CD we were competitive, I don't see how anything much has changed since then apart from the fact you now have the ability to stack mastery to ridiculous amounts for a pittance of resources.
It's quite simple in conclusion, I don't want paladins reworked, I want eternal flame to either be removed or not stack mastery on it's HoT portion. You'd be completely fine without it, this mastery nerf would be completely unneeded, and more importantly every other class would enjoy actually being able to participate in their role because there's actually things to heal.
p.s. you're totally welcome to explain the reason I shouldn't be ahead of a holy paladin who purely stacks a regen stat and has a raidwide mitigation cooldown, instead of barely being able to keep up despite running with 5.7k spirit with everything else into an output stat, and having an output based raid cooldown.
By removing that T14 4pc, they indirectly took a lot of the absurd blanket EF/shields out that you saw.
---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 06:01 AM ----------
1) You're only running with 5.7k spirit with everything into an output stat because you can. If the paladin put 5.7k spirit on and had the rest into output stats, his output would be even lower. He doesn't have a choice, so why should he be forced to be worse?
2) Your raid cooldown has a much larger range and also has a much more (PvE) beneficial secondary effect, while the paladin's mitigation raid cooldown has a low range and does not handle physical damage whatsoever. Apples for oranges, but you conveniently (again) seem to lose all memory of your cooldown's strengths and the paladin's weaknesses.
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 05:56 AM. Reason: made a more appropriate quote of the point I was responding to.
Now there's a fight (Jin'rokh) where paladins seem to dominate, but we also know that due to encounter gimmicks priests dominate Horridon and monks dominate Tortos, and we know therefore they are all just encounter-based anomalies that should not be taken seriously, right?
So what you're claiming here, I don't see.
---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 06:11 AM ----------
Not the paladin's fault the priest isn't using his abilities.
(not to mention on that fight, the top logs I see are mostly... monks).
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2j...=17620&e=18271 - 34m SS + DA versus 26m IH
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uo...?s=8113&e=8725 - 34m SS + DA versus 25m IH
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bm...?s=4028&e=4643 - 32m SS + DA versus 28.6m, 25.4m IH
Yeah.... 10-11 minute kills, I see 6-9 uses of SS. So it's not a "can't use SS" thing.
TL / DR: Not even claiming that we're "underpowered" or that others are "overpowered" - just saying that your suggestions are absurd.
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 06:19 AM.
Name me one fight this tier that doesn't have large amounts of magic damage though? Horridon I guess if you have a mistweaver. I mean, even if there was 2 fights, there's the question of why you have an additional cooldown while also matching my healing?
I'm still also waiting on your justification for being able to completely neuter other's gameplay at low to moderate damage situations, unless your answer is the previous claim that the 4pc nerf will remove that.
---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 07:44 AM ----------
EF funneling beacon is really a very small portion of our healing, as it doesn't get transferred fully, and beacon healing doesn't even apply mastery shields.
Furthermore our heals are far more expensive than any other healer, and smaller to boot. Please inform yourself before you make outrageous claims.
Concerning our raid wide cooldowns, just wow, Devotion Aura was hardly game breaking in T14, and no one complained. Now most raids have magic damage, it's all of a sudden broken? Surely you jest.
Last edited by Cairhiin; 2013-04-17 at 07:11 AM.
Low damage periods are low, all absorbs do the same thing (including DA). If you took out absorbs, it would be HoT healers/etc. fighting to see who gets first tick.
TL/DR: The reason I mentioned T14 4pc is because a big limitation on EF blanketing, which seems to be your major complaint about the class, is dramatically less effective without the 4pc. You lose a lot of low-mana HP generation (from Holy Shock) and a lot of cast-time reductions (you also lose infusion procs which are used on HR or ToR for even faster HP generation), and of course the loss of the instant HP. That adds up to a lot of HP.
Ask most paladins, unless you get a lucky streak of DP procs (which means you sacrifice the control of HA which is really strong), without 4pc you're only reliably keeping up EF on maybe 5 targets tops at a time.
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 07:15 AM.
One (not very important) weakness isn't too much to ask for is it? As I said before, paladins are pretty much excelling at everything at the minute. I just don't see how that can be justified.
The argument against AM is crazy to me, it's something holy paladins have had forever, but now it's suddenly op? Then wouldn't shamans healing stream totem also be op 10% resistance on a 30 second cd while also providing healing? Or how about your revival? Fairly op especially on horridon if your dps miss their interrupts so it can remove that poison completely from the raid and top them off while I spend 9k mana per dispel on people. But yeah AM is broken lol.
Also you want to get rid of our motility? When our speed of light is on a 40 second cd and the other two on my opinion are lack luster for holy. While you get chi torpedo, that not only provides quick movement, but also heals all targets in its path. Yeah eternal flame is free, but we don't get the mana regen of other classes either, which is why we spend most of our secondary stats on spirit. Imagine if we had mana tea and could actually stack throughput stats then we would be broken. Or better yet let's give you 12% of your mana back to you every 2 minutes instead of mana tea and give you a couple Free spells.
Last edited by Lavalashlol; 2013-04-17 at 07:29 AM.
Last edited by Cairhiin; 2013-04-17 at 07:32 AM.
You mention a lot of "low/medium" raid damage situations. Let's compare (without mana-free HP from T14) what we can do:
Paladin: Smash buttons spending 10-20K's of 1/4 effective HPM worth of mana, to get 1/4 effective HPS overhealing the raid, blasting those damned nature-healers out of the ocean on (completely useless sniping) HPS meters!
Monk: Do 100k effective raid DPS while healing the raid for low-medium amounts of HPS, but of course, the damage is low-medium so that's fine, you're effectively distributing resources, not "sniping DPS" since you don't really need to be healing more.
From the raid perspective, in "low/medium" damage profiles, who's looking like the winner? Again, a big reason pre-shielding was viable was because you had that free HP from T14. Without it, yes you can pre-shield the raid, but you are looking at spending 100k's of mana doing so for only 1/4 effective HPM (and HPS).
---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 09:04 AM ----------
Or I can burn through mana to use HR/DL for more EF's, which would be 60k mana per EF. If I'm just casting it solely for the shield, that's 60k mana for 1/4 effective EF healing.
Trying to "blanket IH" the raid means spamming HR over and over again, that's going to run me OOM. Very, very quickly. As I said, burning through mana I can maybe get 8 EF's tops going in a 25m raid, and that's going to completely take me from 300k to zero.
* Granted I did not have 5% haste or 5% crit raid buff, without T14 4pc I was about to get my 4th EF off as my first EF was expiring. To do so, I burned 40% of my mana away.
You seem to have a good knowledge of healing classes and how they work in general and you played a paladin too, whether current I don't know. So imagine what using the T14 4pc gives you in terms of advantages (every advantage from overall efficiency to situational efficiency, you name it all). That's what paladins had going for them on their raidbots/logs. Now imagine taking all of that away, that's what you're losing with the nerf.
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 08:11 AM.
log with a monk fistweaving 50-60k dps and doing nearly the same healing as you, anecdotal evidence doesn't really cut it. Again though, what about restoration druids?
---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 09:31 AM ----------
I just want to point out EF ticks are fairly weak even at 3hp and you meantion the beacon transfer as well. So lets say as voidspark put 4 EFs on the raid at 3 HP each you're looking at 10k ticks (4k shield per tick) unless they crit so double that, then say maybe one is on the paladin himself which make is tick for around 20k so a little stronger on the paladin that cast it. That puts the beacon transfer at 25k and no shield, most of which is going to turn into overheating due to us casting holy light on raid members so that is basically useless. So aside from the small shield that is building say 30k by the time EF is over and that's assuming it gets use, which is likely all we are really doing is preventing small ammounts of raid damage on a few targets, and sending more oh to our beacon. But yes it's very op.