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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    No, you don't understand, holy paladin mastery is worse than spirit shell. Spirit shell at least requires the finesse of planning, IH is completely passive and rewards heal spam regardless of the situation. Paladins already intrude on the gameplay of HoT healers such as Mistweavers and Restoration Druids. Without even considering the fact that you have one talent which makes you arguably better at the specialized niche of two other classes, how on earth do you think it's fair that it also has a buffer to the main caveat of said niche (overhealing).

    I'm lucky enough to play with two very talented holy paladins, I cannot compete with either of them until damage starts getting past their shields. Even in heroic content, their shields can stack during low damage phases to absurd amounts, when it comes time for actual damage on the raid it's completely neutered.

    Paladins have currently by far the best HoT in the game, the best shields in the game, the best cooldowns in the game, and the best tank healing in the game. All of which they can access with one talent build, which is pretty much godmode as far as PvE healing is concerned. As far as I can see, every problem with paladins at the minute is caused by their cheap access to Eternal Flame, which could be solved either by entirely removing the ability (my ideal solution), giving it a minimum HP cost, making the HoT portion not transfer to beacon and not generate IH, making your mastery not generate shields on overhealing, or nerfing the crap out of your mastery.

    I don't like this solution, because by next patch we'll be in the same boat all over again, but it's better than nothing and I'll definitely take it.
    So you're complaining about 2 hpal? Are you I'm a 10 man guild? If so why are you even healing some if not all of the fights? Second if you're in a 25 man guild, MW are just as broken on certain fights if played correctly. Yes our mastery is good, but you also have to think in terms of single target throughput without our shields nearly every class is better. Our spells are weak compared to disc priest, and resto shamans. Those are the only two I have first hand experience with. If they were to remove eternal flame, there goes a lot of our raid healing. So then the only real thing we are brought for again is tank healing, and even then we are only good because of beacon. And even with beacon priests are still going to be favored because of smart heals. Our mastery has been the same since it came out, and only in MoP is it even a remotely useful mastery because they nerfed HR to remove the hot ticks and thus made haste an inefficient stat for us to stack anymore especially with the static mana pools. So you want bliz to completely rework our class AGAIN for the third straight expansion and then come the next one we will have to see QQ again because one ability is broken again.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    No, you don't understand, holy paladin mastery is worse than spirit shell. Spirit shell at least requires the finesse of planning, IH is completely passive and rewards heal spam regardless of the situation. Paladins already intrude on the gameplay of HoT healers such as Mistweavers and Restoration Druids.
    And Divine Aegis and Renewing Mist/Uplift are not "completely passive and rewards heal spam" correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Paladins have currently by far the best HoT in the game, the best shields in the game, the best cooldowns in the game, and the best tank healing in the game.
    IH does not come close to Priest shields (both spirit shell AND divine aegis which you conveniently forgot to mention) and gets sniped, just like anything else, by those abilities. Yes it's passive and is spammed, but when you also play with a good disc priest your IH will only shine when the priest is not actively using his abilities - in other words, where it doesn't matter. You're right that spirit shell has to be planned but that's the thing: you can plan it.

    You conveniently also forgot to mention weaknesses, such as inability to deal with AoE physical damage (though we do have BOPs which can help in other ways) as well as inability to spread-heal effectively. How's that Renewing Mist glyph?

    I'm not denying that we're decent healers because I agree we are, and we're probably one of the more versatile healers in game with few weaknesses. That problem is not solved by creating more weaknesses (which we do have some), but by fixing larger weaknesses for other heal classes (shaman/druid) and giving them some more strengths where they currently don't have as many.

    I think you vastly overestimate how good EF is as a whole, and a big part of why paladins were so overpowered at the start of the tier - T14 4pc, which removed a lot of the class weaknesses by fundamentally altering how the rotation worked and allowed for such massive amounts of blanket healing/shields - was nerfed as it should have been.

  3. #63
    Every spec performs roughly the same under high damage conditions, paladins being the exception and far ahead of everyone else when taking into account effective health on high magic damage encounters. Holy Paladins also completely leech heals under any kind of moderate damage situation, and steal game play from other healers. If EF was removed, you'd still have a very strong hitting AE rotation with HR, Daybreak, and Hammer.

    The only thing that would change if EF was removed is your ability to cheaply stack shields to ridiculous levels during low damage periods, and the ability to steal heals from restoration druids and mistweavers. Now you've got to understand, Holy Paladins have absolutely no weaknesses right now. They are exceptional at everything, and it's pretty ridiculous. You're brilliant tank healers even without constant EF ticks funneling to beacon, you're brilliant raid healers stacked or spread, you have brilliant cooldowns for mitigation and throughput, you have outrageous shielding potential, and you have amazing single target cooldowns.

    It's funny that you claim EF is the only thing keeping paladins competitive, I used to play holy paladin in cataclysm. We were still exceptional, even without mastery applying to overheals, without it stacking at all, and without it applying to overhealing. Even when holy radiance was a passive HoT with a 20 second CD we were competitive, I don't see how anything much has changed since then apart from the fact you now have the ability to stack mastery to ridiculous amounts for a pittance of resources.

    It's quite simple in conclusion, I don't want paladins reworked, I want eternal flame to either be removed or not stack mastery on it's HoT portion. You'd be completely fine without it, this mastery nerf would be completely unneeded, and more importantly every other class would enjoy actually being able to participate in their role because there's actually things to heal.

    p.s. you're totally welcome to explain the reason I shouldn't be ahead of a holy paladin who purely stacks a regen stat and has a raidwide mitigation cooldown, instead of barely being able to keep up despite running with 5.7k spirit with everything else into an output stat, and having an output based raid cooldown.
    Pure LF Healers, Ranged DPS for Warlords! - Top 3 Night 25HC EU. - Big dumb mistweaver blog - YouTube

    That's like Eminem saying he's black cause he drew a brown outline on his mirror in the morning, everyone else sees him as white but he seems himself as black and weird example but same crazy concept of rather avoid lol.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Every spec performs roughly the same under high damage conditions, paladins being the exception and far ahead of everyone else when taking into account effective health on high magic damage encounters. Holy Paladins also completely leech heals under any kind of moderate damage situation, and steal game play from other healers.... I don't see how anything much has changed since then apart from the fact you now have the ability to stack mastery to ridiculous amounts for a pittance of resources.

    p.s. you're totally welcome to explain the reason I shouldn't be ahead of a holy paladin who purely stacks a regen stat and has a raidwide mitigation cooldown, instead of barely being able to keep up despite running with 5.7k spirit with everything else into an output stat, and having an output based raid cooldown.
    I'll clarify my point and reiterate: Eternal Flame was only really "overpowered" due to T14 4pc. Without the 4pc, the amount of mana and time you would have to spend to even come close to blanketing the raid would be ridiculous. The 4pc was what allowed for really cheap, quick blanketing.

    By removing that T14 4pc, they indirectly took a lot of the absurd blanket EF/shields out that you saw.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 06:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    p.s. you're totally welcome to explain the reason I shouldn't be ahead of a holy paladin who purely stacks a regen stat and has a raidwide mitigation cooldown, instead of barely being able to keep up despite running with 5.7k spirit with everything else into an output stat, and having an output based raid cooldown.
    You shouldn't be ahead because:

    1) You're only running with 5.7k spirit with everything into an output stat because you can. If the paladin put 5.7k spirit on and had the rest into output stats, his output would be even lower. He doesn't have a choice, so why should he be forced to be worse?

    2) Your raid cooldown has a much larger range and also has a much more (PvE) beneficial secondary effect, while the paladin's mitigation raid cooldown has a low range and does not handle physical damage whatsoever. Apples for oranges, but you conveniently (again) seem to lose all memory of your cooldown's strengths and the paladin's weaknesses.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 05:56 AM. Reason: made a more appropriate quote of the point I was responding to.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    And Divine Aegis and Renewing Mist/Uplift are not "completely passive and rewards heal spam" correct?
    Mistweavers are designed around having Renewing Mist and we're actually required to cast it during no damage phases, which is punishing considering it wastes mana for pure overhealing. Effective uplifts have to be timed well in advance of 15 seconds. Both can completely overheal. Last time I checked also, discipline didn't have a cheap HoT which stacks divine aegis to outrageous levels. So no, none of them come close to a free HoT which is rewarding to cast despite there actually being no damage coming onto the raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    IH does not come close to Priest shields (both spirit shell AND divine aegis which you conveniently forgot to mention) and gets sniped, just like anything else, by those abilities. Yes it's passive and is spammed, but when you also play with a good disc priest your IH will only shine when the priest is not actively using his abilities - in other words, where it doesn't matter. You're right that spirit shell has to be planned but that's the thing: you can plan it.
    This isn't reproduced in my guild's logs (paladin|priest), are you willing to provide cited numbers which suggest otherwise? Until then, it's been a while since I've had a math class but I'm pretty darn sure 22538003>11873086? [/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    You conveniently also forgot to mention weaknesses, such as inability to deal with AoE physical damage (though we do have BOPs which can help in other ways) as well as inability to spread-heal effectively. How's that Renewing Mist glyph?
    Inability to deal with AoE physical damage? Ineffective at spread healing? You can deal with physical damage as well as any other healer, in fact arguably better in that your shield provides a large buffer against it. HoT healers are supposed to be powerful at spread healing, that's their nature, not a paladin's.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I'm not denying that we're decent healers because I agree we are, and we're probably one of the more versatile healers in game with few weaknesses. That problem is not solved by creating more weaknesses (which we do have some), but by fixing larger weaknesses for other heal classes (shaman/druid) and giving them some more strengths where they currently don't have as many.
    Name me one valid weakness that isn't mutual among every other healer in the game at present, apart from spread healing if EF were to be removed/altered.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I think you vastly overestimate how good EF is as a whole, and a big part of why paladins were so overpowered at the start of the tier - T14 4pc, which removed a lot of the class weaknesses by fundamentally altering how the rotation worked and allowed for such massive amounts of blanket healing/shields - was nerfed as it should have been.
    I really don't, I'd murder to have Renewing Mist stack 40% of it's healing done on the 7 players it effects, but it would be ridiculously overpowered. We'll see how the T14 4pc works out, but in my honest opinion holy paladins aren't remotely near balanced until they get taken out of hot class real estate.
    Pure LF Healers, Ranged DPS for Warlords! - Top 3 Night 25HC EU. - Big dumb mistweaver blog - YouTube

    That's like Eminem saying he's black cause he drew a brown outline on his mirror in the morning, everyone else sees him as white but he seems himself as black and weird example but same crazy concept of rather avoid lol.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Every spec performs roughly the same under high damage conditions, paladins being the exception and far ahead of everyone else when taking into account effective health on high magic damage encounters. Holy Paladins also completely leech heals under any kind of moderate damage situation, and steal game play from other healers.
    Finally this point... I decided to have a look at the data. For 25m heroic encounters, I see on most high magic and physical damage fights a mixture of priests, monks, and paladins, with the occasional shaman there. That looks to me like problems with druids and maybe some lingering shaman problems, but as I mentioned, paladins are just competing with priests/monks, and are not "well above others."

    Now there's a fight (Jin'rokh) where paladins seem to dominate, but we also know that due to encounter gimmicks priests dominate Horridon and monks dominate Tortos, and we know therefore they are all just encounter-based anomalies that should not be taken seriously, right?

    So what you're claiming here, I don't see.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 06:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    This isn't reproduced in my guild's logs (paladin|priest), are you willing to provide cited numbers which suggest otherwise? Until then, it's been a while since I've had a math class but I'm pretty darn sure 22538003>11873086?
    Unless the logs are bugged in which case this discussion is moot, your priest in an almost 10 minute attempt cast spirit shell twice. That's a 1 minute cooldown ability, and at least on normal (and I'd imagine similar on heroic, perhaps even more so with the extra quilen there) the damage spikes are extremely predictable.

    Not the paladin's fault the priest isn't using his abilities.

    (not to mention on that fight, the top logs I see are mostly... monks).

    [edit]

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2j...=17620&e=18271 - 34m SS + DA versus 26m IH
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uo...?s=8113&e=8725 - 34m SS + DA versus 25m IH
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bm...?s=4028&e=4643 - 32m SS + DA versus 28.6m, 25.4m IH

    Yeah.... 10-11 minute kills, I see 6-9 uses of SS. So it's not a "can't use SS" thing.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    TL / DR: Not even claiming that we're "underpowered" or that others are "overpowered" - just saying that your suggestions are absurd.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 06:19 AM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I'll clarify my point and reiterate: Eternal Flame was only really "overpowered" due to T14 4pc. Without the 4pc, the amount of mana and time you would have to spend to even come close to blanketing the raid would be ridiculous. The 4pc was what allowed for really cheap, quick blanketing.

    By removing that T14 4pc, they indirectly took a lot of the absurd blanket EF/shields out that you saw.
    As I said, it remains to be seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post


    ---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 06:01 AM ----------



    You shouldn't be ahead because:

    1) You're only running with 5.7k spirit with everything into an output stat because you can. If the paladin put 5.7k spirit on and had the rest into output stats, his output would be even lower. He doesn't have a choice, so why should he be forced to be worse?

    2) Your raid cooldown has a much larger range and also has a much more (PvE) beneficial secondary effect, while the paladin's mitigation raid cooldown has a low range and does not handle physical damage whatsoever. Apples for oranges, but you conveniently (again) seem to lose all memory of your cooldown's strengths and the paladin's weaknesses.
    I only do it because I have to to keep up, the few heals I do manage to get in have to be as potent as possible. The choice between spirit and any other stat is a pretty clear cut longevity vs. output decision, I don't see why people should be able to stack spirit (a longevity stat) and maintain a larger output than your peers who opt to specialize for output.

    Name me one fight this tier that doesn't have large amounts of magic damage though? Horridon I guess if you have a mistweaver. I mean, even if there was 2 fights, there's the question of why you have an additional cooldown while also matching my healing?
    Pure LF Healers, Ranged DPS for Warlords! - Top 3 Night 25HC EU. - Big dumb mistweaver blog - YouTube

    That's like Eminem saying he's black cause he drew a brown outline on his mirror in the morning, everyone else sees him as white but he seems himself as black and weird example but same crazy concept of rather avoid lol.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    I only do it because I have to to keep up, the few heals I do manage to get in have to be as potent as possible.
    Right, my point is the paladin doesn't have that same option to increase his output (at least not in any sort of realistic current-content fight length).

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Finally this point... I decided to have a look at the data. For 25m heroic encounters, I see on most high magic and physical damage fights a mixture of priests, monks, and paladins, with the occasional shaman there. That looks to me like problems with druids and maybe some lingering shaman problems, but as I mentioned, paladins are just competing with priests/monks, and are not "well above others."

    Now there's a fight (Jin'rokh) where paladins seem to dominate, but we also know that due to encounter gimmicks priests dominate Horridon and monks dominate Tortos, and we know therefore they are all just encounter-based anomalies that should not be taken seriously, right?
    Agreeable, but as I said there's still no explanation for why paladins are equaling never-mind ahead of anyone while providing such a potent AoE mitigation cooldown. If every other class has a healing cooldown and they use it, that adds to their effective healing, however if paladins are at that level while also giving a 20% magic mitigation cooldown it begs the question of why they're so strong or why the rest of us don't have that one mitigation cd extra?

    I'm still also waiting on your justification for being able to completely neuter other's gameplay at low to moderate damage situations, unless your answer is the previous claim that the 4pc nerf will remove that.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Unless the logs are bugged in which case this discussion is moot, your priest in an almost 10 minute attempt cast spirit shell twice. That's a 1 minute cooldown ability, and at least on normal (and I'd imagine similar on heroic, perhaps even more so with the extra quilen there) the damage spikes are extremely predictable.

    Not the paladin's fault the priest isn't using his abilities.

    (not to mention on that fight, the top logs I see are mostly... monks).

    [edit]

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2j...=17620&e=18271 - 34m SS + DA versus 26m IH
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uo...?s=8113&e=8725 - 34m SS + DA versus 25m IH
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bm...?s=4028&e=4643 - 32m SS + DA versus 28.6m, 25.4m IH

    Yeah.... 10-11 minute kills, I see 6-9 uses of SS. So it's not a "can't use SS" thing.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    TL / DR: Not even claiming that we're "underpowered" or that others are "overpowered" - just saying that your suggestions are absurd.
    Fair enough, probably not the best log to link considering it's not a kill and we weren't past fist smashes. Thanks for the logs though, they do demonstrate my other point; take a look at the healing graphs between the monk and paladins. There's a pretty obvious trend that when the holy paladin's healing drops the healing of tali shoots up.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 07:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Right, my point is the paladin doesn't have that same option to increase his output (at least not in any sort of realistic current-content fight length).
    I am pretty sure a paladin who didn't retain 1/3 of their healing while over-healing would be encouraged to make use of low damage periods to actually regen mana as opposed to sniping passive HoTs which would be there anyway.
    Pure LF Healers, Ranged DPS for Warlords! - Top 3 Night 25HC EU. - Big dumb mistweaver blog - YouTube

    That's like Eminem saying he's black cause he drew a brown outline on his mirror in the morning, everyone else sees him as white but he seems himself as black and weird example but same crazy concept of rather avoid lol.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    The only thing that would change if EF was removed is your ability to cheaply stack shields to ridiculous levels during low damage periods, and the ability to steal heals from restoration druids and mistweavers. Now you've got to understand, Holy Paladins have absolutely no weaknesses right now. They are exceptional at everything, and it's pretty ridiculous. You're brilliant tank healers even without constant EF ticks funneling to beacon, you're brilliant raid healers stacked or spread, you have brilliant cooldowns for mitigation and throughput, you have outrageous shielding potential, and you have amazing single target cooldowns.
    If you remove EF you totally gut Holy Paladins ability to heal raid wide damage when the raid isn't stacked, which is pretty much every fight in ToT. Your idea is beyond ridiculous. Eternal Flame is limited by Holy Power, and is by no means overpowered, it was perhaps overpowered with 4 T14 but since no one will be using that anymore after the nerf I don't think it's anything you should complain about. Furthermore, mobility of holy Paladins isn't great, and with the removal of EF we'd be back at being near useless during high movement phases. No thank you.

    EF funneling beacon is really a very small portion of our healing, as it doesn't get transferred fully, and beacon healing doesn't even apply mastery shields.

    Furthermore our heals are far more expensive than any other healer, and smaller to boot. Please inform yourself before you make outrageous claims.

    Concerning our raid wide cooldowns, just wow, Devotion Aura was hardly game breaking in T14, and no one complained. Now most raids have magic damage, it's all of a sudden broken? Surely you jest.
    Last edited by Cairhiin; 2013-04-17 at 07:11 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    If every other class has a healing cooldown and they use it, that adds to their effective healing, however if paladins are at that level while also giving a 20% magic mitigation cooldown it begs the question of why they're so strong or why the rest of us don't have that one mitigation cd extra?
    /shrug why do Shamans get Ancestral Vigor + Glyph of HST? Why do Monks get to dispel everything off all 25 raid members in a global? Why do Priests get throughput and PW:B (which is everything, not just magic)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    I'm still also waiting on your justification for being able to completely neuter other's gameplay at low to moderate damage situations, unless your answer is the previous claim that the 4pc nerf will remove that.
    Why do other healers get the option of doing mana-free/low-mana damage in relatively low raid damage periods (either passively or on CD) while Paladins do not? Why does MW/Disc get eminence/atonement as an option in such scenarios where paladins waste mana doing more than like 3k DPS?

    Low damage periods are low, all absorbs do the same thing (including DA). If you took out absorbs, it would be HoT healers/etc. fighting to see who gets first tick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Fair enough, probably not the best log to link considering it's not a kill and we weren't past fist smashes. Thanks for the logs though, they do demonstrate my other point; take a look at the healing graphs between the monk and paladins. There's a pretty obvious trend that when the holy paladin's healing drops the healing of tali shoots up.
    You're just arguing against absorbs of any kind at this point, which I can understand to a degree. My healing shoots up when the spirit shells from the two discs in my raid are consumed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    I am pretty sure a paladin who didn't retain 1/3 of their healing while over-healing would be encouraged to make use of low damage periods to actually regen mana as opposed to sniping passive HoTs which would be there anyway.
    Same goes for any healer that wants to blanket hots (hint: paladins without T14 are nowhere near as mana efficient with hot blanketing), or any healer that wants to pre-emptively heal, really.


    ------------------------------


    TL/DR: The reason I mentioned T14 4pc is because a big limitation on EF blanketing, which seems to be your major complaint about the class, is dramatically less effective without the 4pc. You lose a lot of low-mana HP generation (from Holy Shock) and a lot of cast-time reductions (you also lose infusion procs which are used on HR or ToR for even faster HP generation), and of course the loss of the instant HP. That adds up to a lot of HP.

    Ask most paladins, unless you get a lucky streak of DP procs (which means you sacrifice the control of HA which is really strong), without 4pc you're only reliably keeping up EF on maybe 5 targets tops at a time.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 07:15 AM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    If you remove EF you totally gut Holy Paladins ability to heal raid wide damage when the raid isn't stacked, which is pretty much every fight in ToT. Your idea is beyond ridiculous. Eternal Flame is limited by Holy Power, and is by no means overpowered, it was perhaps overpowered with 4 T14 but since no one will be using that anymore after the nerf I don't think it's anything you should complain about. Furthermore, mobility of holy Paladins isn't great, and with the removal of EF we'd be back at being near useless during high movement phases. No thank you.
    Managed fine in Cataclysm "without mobility" when the class as a whole was far better tuned, I mean I'm pretty sure now you actually have talents to help remedy that weakness (Speed of Light, PoJ, SW, HP, ES) that don't involve an overpowered HoT which intrudes on other class' gameplay.

    One (not very important) weakness isn't too much to ask for is it? As I said before, paladins are pretty much excelling at everything at the minute. I just don't see how that can be justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    EF funneling beacon is really a very small portion of our healing, as it doesn't get transferred fully, and beacon healing doesn't even apply mastery shields.
    Small portion of overall, huge amount of tank healing for someone who is supposed to be raid healing though? I mean your main AE healing ability has a specifically low modifier to prevent it from getting silly, I don't see how EF doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    Furthermore our heals are far more expensive than any other healer, and smaller to boot. Please inform yourself before you make outrageous claims.
    You also get far more free casts than any other healer.
    Pure LF Healers, Ranged DPS for Warlords! - Top 3 Night 25HC EU. - Big dumb mistweaver blog - YouTube

    That's like Eminem saying he's black cause he drew a brown outline on his mirror in the morning, everyone else sees him as white but he seems himself as black and weird example but same crazy concept of rather avoid lol.

  13. #73
    The argument against AM is crazy to me, it's something holy paladins have had forever, but now it's suddenly op? Then wouldn't shamans healing stream totem also be op 10% resistance on a 30 second cd while also providing healing? Or how about your revival? Fairly op especially on horridon if your dps miss their interrupts so it can remove that poison completely from the raid and top them off while I spend 9k mana per dispel on people. But yeah AM is broken lol.

    Also you want to get rid of our motility? When our speed of light is on a 40 second cd and the other two on my opinion are lack luster for holy. While you get chi torpedo, that not only provides quick movement, but also heals all targets in its path. Yeah eternal flame is free, but we don't get the mana regen of other classes either, which is why we spend most of our secondary stats on spirit. Imagine if we had mana tea and could actually stack throughput stats then we would be broken. Or better yet let's give you 12% of your mana back to you every 2 minutes instead of mana tea and give you a couple Free spells.
    Last edited by Lavalashlol; 2013-04-17 at 07:29 AM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Managed fine in Cataclysm "without mobility" when the class as a whole was far better tuned, I mean I'm pretty sure now you actually have talents to help remedy that weakness (Speed of Light, PoJ, SW, HP, ES) that don't involve an overpowered HoT which intrudes on other class' gameplay.
    Far better tuned? Oh you mean non stop Holy Radiance spam with HoT component? Oh yea that wasn't overpowered at all. Furthermore you basically want to push Paladins back in the same role they've always had? Stand still and spam heal the tank? And the moment any movement is needed healing output drops to zero while every other healer has a means to heal on the move? Oh yea that is balanced. Please be realistic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    One (not very important) weakness isn't too much to ask for is it? As I said before, paladins are pretty much excelling at everything at the minute. I just don't see how that can be justified.
    Two weaknesses without EF. 1) No mobility. 2) No AoE healing when the raid is spread out. You seem to forget that Holy Radiance is entirely neutered and beyond gaining Holy Power really pretty horrible. Nerfing EF would also nerf our AoE healing but quite a substantly amount. Once more please come up with realistic ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Small portion of overall, huge amount of tank healing for someone who is supposed to be raid healing though? I mean your main AE healing ability has a specifically low modifier to prevent it from getting silly, I don't see how EF doesn't.
    What?! I don't even understand what you mean. Are you somehow insinuating that EF beacon ticks are enough to keep a tank alive?! How is it different from Druids hotting everything and healing raid + tank at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    You also get far more free casts than any other healer.
    While true, does your spammable AoE heal cost 21.6k mana? Your main single target heal 21.6k mana? I thought not. Let me tell you what I as Holy Paladin find ridiculous; Monks and Disc Priests doing 50-60k DPS while also maintaining near the same healing output as I do. Talk about broken. In 10 man that's basically having half a DPS extra while still having a third healer. Maybe we should start with nerfing that, then you can come back here, and talk about Eternal Flame.
    Last edited by Cairhiin; 2013-04-17 at 07:32 AM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttle View Post
    I highly doubt you are reaching 40.60% mastery. Even with Blessing Of Might, it's not even remotely obtainable with an ilvl of 517.
    Do you even play a Holy Paladin?

    Anyway, I'm hopeful about the daybreak change, even though it mean's were going to have to avoid using Holy Shock until we get the 2 stacks but should be a nice buff overall combined with the 2 set bonus.

  16. #76
    The Lightbringer nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    Let me tell you what I as Holy Paladin find ridiculous; Monks and Disc Priests doing 50-60k DPS while also maintaining near the same healing output as I do. Talk about broken. In 10 man that's basically having half a DPS extra while still having a third healer. Maybe we should start with nerfing that, then you can come back here, and talk about Eternal Flame.
    I was going to mention this in response but I think it's worth mentioning. I'm looking at this also from an angle of raid usefulness, not just "meters" (I do understand meters are important, I'm not dismissing them entirely hence why I haven't mentioned this yet).

    You mention a lot of "low/medium" raid damage situations. Let's compare (without mana-free HP from T14) what we can do:

    Paladin: Smash buttons spending 10-20K's of 1/4 effective HPM worth of mana, to get 1/4 effective HPS overhealing the raid, blasting those damned nature-healers out of the ocean on (completely useless sniping) HPS meters!

    Monk: Do 100k effective raid DPS while healing the raid for low-medium amounts of HPS, but of course, the damage is low-medium so that's fine, you're effectively distributing resources, not "sniping DPS" since you don't really need to be healing more.


    From the raid perspective, in "low/medium" damage profiles, who's looking like the winner? Again, a big reason pre-shielding was viable was because you had that free HP from T14. Without it, yes you can pre-shield the raid, but you are looking at spending 100k's of mana doing so for only 1/4 effective HPM (and HPS).

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    /shrug why do Shamans get Ancestral Vigor + Glyph of HST? Why do Monks get to dispel everything off all 25 raid members in a global? Why do Priests get throughput and PW:B (which is everything, not just magic)?
    Disc priest's pure healing output is noticeably lower than holy. Shamans are also noticeably lower. Revival is a one time gimmick on Horridon which actually provides less effective healing than it would otherwise do if people were at a health deficit.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    /Why do other healers get the option of doing mana-free/low-mana damage in relatively low raid damage periods (either passively or on CD) while Paladins do not? Why does MW/Disc get eminence/atonement as an option in such scenarios where paladins waste mana doing more than like 3k DPS?

    Low damage periods are low, all absorbs do the same thing (including DA). If you took out absorbs, it would be HoT healers/etc. fighting to see who gets first tick.
    Atonement is getting nerfed, fistweaving incurs a heavier resource cost than pure mistweaving and delivers far less healing so it's not really an option in non trivial content. It's alright for dailies though! As for the HoT argument, it's what HoTs were designed to do, it's why paladins shouldn't have one nevermind have one that stacks their shielding mastery. I don't think you understand, but in low damage situations mistweavers and rdruids have literally nothing to do now.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    You're just arguing against absorbs of any kind at this point, which I can understand to a degree. My healing shoots up when the spirit shells from the two discs in my raid are consumed.
    Yup, but I think spirit shell is fine considering it requires thought and only is there during periods of high damage. EF provides a constant blanket of fuck HoT gameplay that makes it extremely frustrating to play resto or mistweaver.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Same goes for any healer that wants to blanket hots (hint: paladins without T14 are nowhere near as mana efficient with hot blanketing), or any healer that wants to pre-emptively heal, really.
    The major difference being though that HoT classes are there to deal with that passive damage and are designed around it, divine plea's entire existence is based around the idea paladins are supposed to take advantage of phases of low damage for regen. It's no coincidence that Innvervate doesn't incite the same 50% heal penalty as DP.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    TL/DR: The reason I mentioned T14 4pc is because a big limitation on EF blanketing, which seems to be your major complaint about the class, is dramatically less effective without the 4pc. You lose a lot of low-mana HP generation (from Holy Shock) and a lot of cast-time reductions (you also lose infusion procs which are used on HR or ToR for even faster HP generation), and of course the loss of the instant HP. That adds up to a lot of HP.
    Hopefully it does deal with it to an extent, fingers crossed! You can argue all you want, but all it takes is a quick look on raidbots pure output for heroic content all parses and you'll see that paladins dominate every non gimmick fight where there's even a small period of time with low damage.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 09:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I was going to mention this in response but I think it's worth mentioning. I'm looking at this also from an angle of raid usefulness, not just "meters" (I do understand meters are important, I'm not dismissing them entirely hence why I haven't mentioned this yet).

    You mention a lot of "low/medium" raid damage situations. Let's compare (without mana-free HP from T14) what we can do:

    Paladin: Smash buttons spending 10-20K's of 1/4 effective HPM worth of mana, to get 1/4 effective HPS overhealing the raid, blasting those damned nature-healers out of the ocean on (completely useless sniping) HPS meters!
    I think you misunderstand, blizzard has created gameplay which is obviously unhealthy for holy in terms of decision making and intrudes on HoT class gameplay. I'm not sure why you're arguing that EF is a good thing, if it wasn't there you'd be able to drop spirit and become much better at healing when it matters. HoTs from resto and MW are going to be there regardless, why on earth would you want to be encouraged to spend resources to compete in, you said it yourself, completely useless sniping?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Monk: Do 100k effective raid DPS while healing the raid for low-medium amounts of HPS, but of course, the damage is low-medium so that's fine, you're effectively distributing resources, not "sniping DPS" since you don't really need to be healing more.
    If you choose to fistweave on a fight for god knows why, you'll optimistically be doing 30-40k DPS for maybe 3/4 minutes till you go OOM. In other words, it's not worth the mana because it shaves effectively no time off the kill in a 25 heroic environment. You could argue the case for discipline, where it's a huge healing increase to actually utilize atonement, but using fistweaving for mistweavers is leaning on your bad leg. Switching the spotlight away from mistweavers though, what should resto druids do? Moonfire?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    From the raid perspective, in "low/medium" damage profiles, who's looking like the winner? Again, a big reason pre-shielding was viable was because you had that free HP from T14. Without it, yes you can pre-shield the raid, but you are looking at spending 100k's of mana doing so for only 1/4 effective HPM (and HPS).
    I'm not sure, what I used to do when I was a holy paladin was heal the tanks during lulls in damage and regenerate mana for large bursts in AoE healing. Maybe, if what you say is true, then we'll see the return of actual engaging game play which encourages decision making to holy.
    Pure LF Healers, Ranged DPS for Warlords! - Top 3 Night 25HC EU. - Big dumb mistweaver blog - YouTube

    That's like Eminem saying he's black cause he drew a brown outline on his mirror in the morning, everyone else sees him as white but he seems himself as black and weird example but same crazy concept of rather avoid lol.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Revival is a one time gimmick on Horridon which actually provides less effective healing than it would otherwise do if people were at a health deficit.
    The effective damage prevention is the total DoT that would have ticked were most of the DoTs (which would have costed a lot of mana to dispel, one by one) allowed to tick their full duration. Granted you're not preventing burst damage (which you would be mitigating somewhat if you used it at a health deficit), but that's damage that could be deadly during a Dire Call for instance (which, by the way, Devotion Aura does nothing against) or could allow someone to get combo'ed later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    I don't think you understand, but in low damage situations mistweavers and rdruids have literally nothing to do now.
    This is what I have to do: Cast Holy Shock off CD (6 seconds). Maybe throw out some Holy Lights. In 18 seconds of such a low damage phase (which is an eternity), I can then cast EF once. In 30 seconds, I'll have thrown out 2 EF's, but the first EF would have expired or be shortly expiring.

    Or I can burn through mana to use HR/DL for more EF's, which would be 60k mana per EF. If I'm just casting it solely for the shield, that's 60k mana for 1/4 effective EF healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Yup, but I think spirit shell is fine considering it requires thought and only is there during periods of high damage. EF provides a constant blanket of fuck HoT gameplay that makes it extremely frustrating to play resto or mistweaver.
    Which is fine, but paladins (as another weakness) don't have the option for 100% effective preemptive healing. We can throw HoTs and have shields be consumed and throw AoE healing during the damage, or we can burn mana preempting for 25% effectiveness. Not very effective.

    Trying to "blanket IH" the raid means spamming HR over and over again, that's going to run me OOM. Very, very quickly. As I said, burning through mana I can maybe get 8 EF's tops going in a 25m raid, and that's going to completely take me from 300k to zero.

    * Granted I did not have 5% haste or 5% crit raid buff, without T14 4pc I was about to get my 4th EF off as my first EF was expiring. To do so, I burned 40% of my mana away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Hopefully it does deal with it to an extent, fingers crossed! You can argue all you want, but all it takes is a quick look on raidbots pure output for heroic content all parses and you'll see that paladins dominate every non gimmick fight where there's even a small period of time with low damage.
    Not only would it deal with that, it takes away a lot of other things that potentially made paladins OP. If you check my posts, I supported nerfing the 4pc (partly this may be due to a bias since I didn't have it), and that I disagreed (obviously) with making HS a 5 second baseline simply since that would be incredibly OP in PvP.

    You seem to have a good knowledge of healing classes and how they work in general and you played a paladin too, whether current I don't know. So imagine what using the T14 4pc gives you in terms of advantages (every advantage from overall efficiency to situational efficiency, you name it all). That's what paladins had going for them on their raidbots/logs. Now imagine taking all of that away, that's what you're losing with the nerf.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 08:11 AM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    Far better tuned? Oh you mean non stop Holy Radiance spam with HoT component? Oh yea that wasn't overpowered at all. Furthermore you basically want to push Paladins back in the same role they've always had? Stand still and spam heal the tank? And the moment any movement is needed healing output drops to zero while every other healer has a means to heal on the move? Oh yea that is balanced. Please be realistic!
    It pretty much wasn't, the only fight it was silly on was Ultraxion which was a gimmick fight. At least then there was some distinction to the roles of a holy paladin instead of them being universally good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    Two weaknesses without EF. 1) No mobility. 2) No AoE healing when the raid is spread out. You seem to forget that Holy Radiance is entirely neutered and beyond gaining Holy Power really pretty horrible. Nerfing EF would also nerf our AoE healing but quite a substantly amount. Once more please come up with realistic ideas.
    How does the removal of EF effect your mobility? It certainly effects your healing while mobile perhaps, but that's the case for pretty much every non HoT healer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    What?! I don't even understand what you mean. Are you somehow insinuating that EF beacon ticks are enough to keep a tank alive?! How is it different from Druids hotting everything and healing raid + tank at the same time?
    Well let's see, druids don't have an instant with a 6/4 second cooldown which heals for the amount regrowth does. They also don't have 50% of their net HoT healing instantaneously transferred to a tank. They also don't get huge shields on their HoTs for 40% of their ticks. Pretty different to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    While true, does your spammable AoE heal cost 21.6k mana? Your main single target heal 21.6k mana? I thought not. Let me tell you what I as Holy Paladin find ridiculous; Monks and Disc Priests doing 50-60k DPS while also maintaining near the same healing output as I do. Talk about broken. In 10 man that's basically having half a DPS extra while still having a third healer. Maybe we should start with nerfing that, then you can come back here, and talk about Eternal Flame.
    My spammable AoE heal does cost 21.6k mana and to maintain single target healing costs me 3 chi plus 3000 mana every half second or so. Link me a log with a monk fistweaving 50-60k dps and doing nearly the same healing as you, anecdotal evidence doesn't really cut it. Again though, what about restoration druids?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 09:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    The effective damage prevention is the total DoT that would have ticked were most of the DoTs (which would have costed a lot of mana to dispel, one by one) allowed to tick their full duration. Granted you're not preventing burst damage (which you would be mitigating somewhat if you used it at a health deficit), but that's damage that could be deadly during a Dire Call for instance (which, by the way, Devotion Aura does nothing against) or could allow someone to get combo'ed later on.
    This is one fight where Revival's dispel component is relevant in two tiers, and it's entirely based on your melee being bad at interrupts. It's also the one fight in 2 tiers of my recollection where DA doesn't do much, but also where my complaint that shields are too strong is most prevalent.


    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    This is what I have to do: Cast Holy Shock off CD (6 seconds). Maybe throw out some Holy Lights. In 18 seconds of such a low damage phase (which is an eternity), I can then cast EF once. In 30 seconds, I'll have thrown out 2 EF's, but the first EF would have expired or be shortly expiring.

    Or I can burn through mana to use HR/DL for more EF's, which would be 60k mana per EF. If I'm just casting it solely for the shield, that's 60k mana for 1/4 effective EF healing.
    Here's what I do during low damage because of the state of fistweaving, cast Renewing Mist once every 8 seconds, maybe a talent here or there and afk with soothing mist channeling on a tank. You're not a DPS, being active 100% of the time isn't a requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Which is fine, but paladins (as another weakness) don't have the option for 100% effective preemptive healing. We can throw HoTs and have shields be consumed and throw AoE healing during the damage, or we can burn mana preempting for 25% effectiveness. Not very effective.

    Trying to "blanket IH" the raid means spamming HR over and over again, that's going to run me OOM. Very, very quickly. As I said, burning through mana I can maybe get 8 EF's tops going in a 25m raid, and that's going to completely take me from 300k to zero.

    * Granted I did not have 5% haste or 5% crit raid buff, without T14 4pc I was about to get my 4th EF off as my first EF was expiring. To do so, I burned 40% of my mana away.
    That's about as much of a weakness as a lack of an I WIN button is. Also, I'm fairly certain in low damage situations the ability to spend EF at 1/2 HP is extremely effective and mana efficient (more globals spend on EF -> less using mana).

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Not only would it deal with that, it takes away a lot of other things that potentially made paladins OP. If you check my posts, I supported nerfing the 4pc (partly this may be due to a bias since I didn't have it), and that I disagreed (obviously) with making HS a 5 second baseline simply since that would be incredibly OP in PvP.
    Completely understandable, I can imagine how painful it would be to have Renewing Mist every 6 seconds instead of 8.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    You seem to have a good knowledge of healing classes and how they work in general and you played a paladin too, whether current I don't know. So imagine what using the T14 4pc gives you in terms of advantages (every advantage from overall efficiency to situational efficiency, you name it all). That's what paladins had going for them on their raidbots/logs. Now imagine taking all of that away, that's what you're losing with the nerf.
    I entirely understand that, it's somewhat comparable to the 5.2 jab nerf, but at the end of the day some changes just need to be made for the health of the game.
    Pure LF Healers, Ranged DPS for Warlords! - Top 3 Night 25HC EU. - Big dumb mistweaver blog - YouTube

    That's like Eminem saying he's black cause he drew a brown outline on his mirror in the morning, everyone else sees him as white but he seems himself as black and weird example but same crazy concept of rather avoid lol.

  20. #80
    I just want to point out EF ticks are fairly weak even at 3hp and you meantion the beacon transfer as well. So lets say as voidspark put 4 EFs on the raid at 3 HP each you're looking at 10k ticks (4k shield per tick) unless they crit so double that, then say maybe one is on the paladin himself which make is tick for around 20k so a little stronger on the paladin that cast it. That puts the beacon transfer at 25k and no shield, most of which is going to turn into overheating due to us casting holy light on raid members so that is basically useless. So aside from the small shield that is building say 30k by the time EF is over and that's assuming it gets use, which is likely all we are really doing is preventing small ammounts of raid damage on a few targets, and sending more oh to our beacon. But yes it's very op.

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