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  1. #81
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    No, you don't understand, holy paladin mastery is worse than spirit shell. Spirit shell at least requires the finesse of planning, IH is completely passive and rewards heal spam regardless of the situation. Paladins already intrude on the gameplay of HoT healers such as Mistweavers and Restoration Druids.
    This is not TBC, there is no more healing niches, speaking about "intruding" is weird at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    I'm lucky enough to play with two very talented holy paladins, I cannot compete with either of them until damage starts getting past their shields. Even in heroic content, their shields can stack during low damage phases to absurd amounts, when it comes time for actual damage on the raid it's completely neutered.
    What you see is first and foremost the effect of 4xT14 allowing far more EF spamming than you would otherwise expect. Before the nerfs to 4xPVP set, it was even more so, but the problem was the PVP set, not the shields. With the paladins finally putting on the T15 set, the problem would go away by itself without the mastery nerfs, especially in the situations where you can't use CS to generate more HP.

    I'll also grant you the fact that mistweavers are not in the best spot right now, but that's the problem with the monks, not with paladins. Having to balance melee vs standard healing and chi generation (aka jab-jab-uplift) completely screwed things up for them imo. But it has nothing to do with paladins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Paladins have currently by far the best HoT in the game, the best shields in the game, the best cooldowns in the game, and the best tank healing in the game. All of which they can access with one talent build, which is pretty much godmode as far as PvE healing is concerned.
    That is some serious stuff you're under there. Please get me some, mine is definitely not that strong

    Paladins have crappy mana costs, forcing them into boatloads of spirit. When I see, for instance, druid guides starting with something in the tune of "more than 10k spirit is not really necessary", it makes me want to bash my head on the wall. I'm not even gonna mention pre-nerf mistweaver monks, because that was frankly ridiculous. And I'm not even going to mention disc priests, especially pre-5.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    As far as I can see, every problem with paladins at the minute is caused by their cheap access to Eternal Flame, which could be solved either by entirely removing the ability (my ideal solution), giving it a minimum HP cost, making the HoT portion not transfer to beacon and not generate IH, making your mastery not generate shields on overhealing, or nerfing the crap out of your mastery.
    And I suggest that we delete mistweavers. What, it's unacceptable? Well, of course it is, but so are your "solutions".

    It seems to me you're just raging at your two paladin guildies more than anything else.

  2. #82
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    This is one fight where Revival's dispel component is relevant in two tiers, and it's entirely based on your melee being bad at interrupts. It's also the one fight in 2 tiers of my recollection where DA doesn't do much, but also where my complaint that shields are too strong is most prevalent.
    Usually the poisons that go off are when a poison cloud spawns at the same time as a volley is being cast, with effusions active. Yes melee should be hitting them, but those are when the interrupts are legitimately "difficult" to hit. Either way in most videos I have seen/heard of, the volleys do go off, just not 4+ of them - but even if 4+ did, Revival will salvage it.

    DA does little on Ji-Kun (except for Slimed, go figure), does nothing on Blade Lord until the very end, does nothing on Wind Lord unless you are bad and blow up bombs (sometimes if a bomb landed on a "less aware" player I might put it up in case, but that's it), does nothing on Zor'lok (except if you're running between platforms, it's decent as it prevents the silence but that's lol). Revival is useful on all of those fights, by contrast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Also, I'm fairly certain in low damage situations the ability to spend EF at 1/2 HP is extremely effective and mana efficient (more globals spend on EF -> less using mana).
    It is good, but the only benefit you are getting is you are not overhealing as much. Shields (if they get used) are not affected, only their distribution (so instead of a shield on one person, you have 1/2 the shield on two people).

    The cost is you are actually using more globals in this case. 1-2HP EF's, while I do use them at times, are incredibly disputed by the community and honestly doing so is only really amazing if you have literally nothing to do with your GCD's. Otherwise, you might be better off holding your HP.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 08:50 AM.

  3. #83
    Please go away with your offtopic chat, you have derailed the thread for 3 pages.

    When posting, please try to remain on topic and contribute to the conversation. - Malthanis
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-04-17 at 01:00 PM.

  4. #84
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Finally this point... I decided to have a look at the data. For 25m heroic encounters, I see on most high magic and physical damage fights a mixture of priests, monks, and paladins, with the occasional shaman there. That looks to me like problems with druids and maybe some lingering shaman problems, but as I mentioned, paladins are just competing with priests/monks, and are not "well above others."

    Now there's a fight (Jin'rokh) where paladins seem to dominate, but we also know that due to encounter gimmicks priests dominate Horridon and monks dominate Tortos, and we know therefore they are all just encounter-based anomalies that should not be taken seriously, right?

    So what you're claiming here, I don't see.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 06:11 AM ----------



    Unless the logs are bugged in which case this discussion is moot, your priest in an almost 10 minute attempt cast spirit shell twice. That's a 1 minute cooldown ability, and at least on normal (and I'd imagine similar on heroic, perhaps even more so with the extra quilen there) the damage spikes are extremely predictable.

    Not the paladin's fault the priest isn't using his abilities.

    (not to mention on that fight, the top logs I see are mostly... monks).

    [edit]

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2j...=17620&e=18271 - 34m SS + DA versus 26m IH
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uo...?s=8113&e=8725 - 34m SS + DA versus 25m IH
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bm...?s=4028&e=4643 - 32m SS + DA versus 28.6m, 25.4m IH

    Yeah.... 10-11 minute kills, I see 6-9 uses of SS. So it's not a "can't use SS" thing.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    TL / DR: Not even claiming that we're "underpowered" or that others are "overpowered" - just saying that your suggestions are absurd.


    Are you for real? Comparing SS+DA with IH?? It's not like IH is mastery and SS is an ability, and Disc wont get higher crits but DA instead... or anything.. lol

  5. #85
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    No, you don't understand, holy paladin mastery is worse than spirit shell.

    No you do not understand. You posted the holy paladin mastery is making it so there is nothing to heal. It isn't, at all. It is not spirit shell. It is not being stacked on the raid to mitigate all damage from mechanics. It is absorbing a little bits damage at a time. How about you go learn how mastery works before you go off posting nonsense. If you are having a hard time finding something to heal because of Paladin mastery, you are overhealing content.

    And you are a monk crying that paladins are ruining your healing basically in all your posts. Monks are very strong and if you are having an issue, it is you( or possibly your guild overhealing content as said above).
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-04-17 at 11:13 AM.

  6. #86
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Are you for real? Comparing SS+DA with IH??
    That was what he specifically asked me to do, so that's exactly what I did. Please actually read posts before getting snarky.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 11:26 AM.

  7. #87
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    You didn't read the thread nor the discussion, now you can stop being stupid. Not like DA isn't your mastery, and not like I wasn't specifically asked to compare absorb amounts.

    Yet again, paladins aren't the reason why priests don't use their abilities then go to bitch and moan that they aren't "overpowered enough."
    Still, you did compare DA+SS with IH, wich is just a nono since they are completly different things.

    My Mastery is Echoe of Light, a 6 s hot that is around 30-50% overhealing (so no, I am not a bitching Disc Priest). No, DA is not Discs Mastery, go study Mastery for Disc increase both healing and absorbs & DA is replacing Discs crit healing as for 5.2, so call me stooped all you want, but L2 be correct if you are going to do so.

    Disc is OP in most fights, mostly because most encounters are made for SS with AoE on a 1 min timer, but it evens out because after the SS expire/is consumed Disc can't contribute a lot with raw healing. The biggest issue with Disc atm is Atonment being too good, with high manaeffeciancy and substantial dps. Very valuable. The healing from Atonment is going to be nerfed as I said, so both the "OP classes" are getting well needed adjustments.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    And Divine Aegis and Renewing Mist/Uplift are not "completely passive and rewards heal spam" correct?



    IH does not come close to Priest shields (both spirit shell AND divine aegis which you conveniently forgot to mention) and gets sniped, just like anything else, by those abilities. Yes it's passive and is spammed, but when you also play with a good disc priest your IH will only shine when the priest is not actively using his abilities - in other words, where it doesn't matter. You're right that spirit shell has to be planned but that's the thing: you can plan it.

    You conveniently also forgot to mention weaknesses, such as inability to deal with AoE physical damage (though we do have BOPs which can help in other ways) as well as inability to spread-heal effectively. How's that Renewing Mist glyph?

    I'm not denying that we're decent healers because I agree we are, and we're probably one of the more versatile healers in game with few weaknesses. That problem is not solved by creating more weaknesses (which we do have some), but by fixing larger weaknesses for other heal classes (shaman/druid) and giving them some more strengths where they currently don't have as many.

    I think you vastly overestimate how good EF is as a whole, and a big part of why paladins were so overpowered at the start of the tier - T14 4pc, which removed a lot of the class weaknesses by fundamentally altering how the rotation worked and allowed for such massive amounts of blanket healing/shields - was nerfed as it should have been.
    So let's discuss the weaknesses of healing classes.

    Shaman : Spread smart healing, spread raid healing.
    Rdruid : They need more raw hps aoe healing wise. They bring no unique cds.
    Mw : Can't tank heal without overhealing a lot and sacrificing raid healing abilities... They also pretty much bring nothing but raw hps.
    Holy priests : No mitigation. Can't do tank healing while raid healing. Horrible spot healing.
    Disc priests : Not having enough healing. They are great mostly in tot, but that doesn't mean disc doesn't have its own problems. Unlike holy paladins, disc sucks on at least 1 fight in tot (tortos hc)
    Hpaladins : Lets see. You have great spot healing, tank healing, aoe healing, absorbs, mitigation, utility, survivability that no other healing class has. And you consider not having a cd(correction, not having a raid cd) for physical damage a weakness? Please get your facts straight. Holy paladins have no weaknesses. Give holy paladins healing tide and pw:barrier and every guild that can will stack 6 holy paladins on every single fight.

  9. #89
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Still, you did compare DA+SS with IH, wich is just a nono since they are completly different things.
    There's a reason I eventually edited my post, which is to explain that comparison is exactly what I was asked to give.

    Not reading: "nono"
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-04-17 at 12:16 PM.

  10. #90
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    Paladin Mastery went from one extreme to the other from Cataclysm to Mists of Pandaria.

    In Cataclysm, the stat priority put Mastery below Disconnecting, Being Mugged, Cancer & HIV. Now, in Mists of Pandaria, it is pretty insane. The Healing Meters for our Paladin puts his Mastery as his top heal the whole time, combined with a Disc Priest, my HoTs never have a chance to actually heal!

  11. #91
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Now, in Mists of Pandaria, it is pretty insane. The Healing Meters for our Paladin puts his Mastery as his top heal the whole time, combined with a Disc Priest, my HoTs never have a chance to actually heal!
    Again, a big reason that the shields were so powerful was because you could EF blanket the raid with T14 4pc. Now that that has been nerfed (per OP thread topic), it's going to be a lot harder to efficiently keep up so many EF's, which means it will be a lot harder to keep up as many shields as possible.

    Then as a double kick, the mastery is taking a 15% nerf, seeing as shields are about 33% of average output, minus overhealing and stuff (minimal), you're looking at a 5% nerf to overall throughput on top of that. Which is huge, because paladin throughput without T14 4pc wasn't that insane to begin with.

  12. #92
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Still, you did compare DA+SS with IH, wich is just a nono since they are completly different things.

    My Mastery is Echoe of Light, a 6 s hot that is around 30-50% overhealing (so no, I am not a bitching Disc Priest). No, DA is not Discs Mastery, go study Mastery for Disc increase both healing and absorbs & DA is replacing Discs crit healing as for 5.2, so call me stooped all you want, but L2 be correct if you are going to do so.

    Disc is OP in most fights, mostly because most encounters are made for SS with AoE on a 1 min timer, but it evens out because after the SS expire/is consumed Disc can't contribute a lot with raw healing. The biggest issue with Disc atm is Atonment being too good, with high manaeffeciancy and substantial dps. Very valuable. The healing from Atonment is going to be nerfed as I said, so both the "OP classes" are getting well needed adjustments.

    You are basically ignoring all context of his post to the discussion and just posting to see yourself speak and looking silly in the process. He was asked by a monk to compare them. A monk who is also claiming paladin mastery is causing all other healers in the game to have nothing to heal much like disc priests were accused of in 5.1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Hpaladins : Lets see. You have great spot healing, tank healing, aoe healing, absorbs, mitigation, utility, survivability that no other healing class has. And you consider not having a cd(correction, not having a raid cd) for physical damage a weakness? Please get your facts straight. Holy paladins have no weaknesses. Give holy paladins healing tide and pw:barrier and every guild that can will stack 6 holy paladins on every single fight.
    We don't have good on the move healing. We don't have a huge spike raid damage cooldown like Divine Hymn, Tranq, MTT (best we can do is Holy Avenger+Divine Favor). Seriously the paladins that are topping on wol are using EF blanketing which is healing consistent raid damage over time not huge spikes of damage. So follow your own advice and get your facts straight. You saying disc has too little healing is pretty laughable since anyone with sense knows that is not the case. If paladins were as strong as you say then WoL would be nothing but paladins healers like it was with monks and disc priests before their nerfs, but instead the logs are full of Monks, Disc Priests and Paladins with occasional Resto Shaman and Holy priest. You are basically grasping for straws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    I'll also grant you the fact that mistweavers are not in the best spot right now, but that's the problem with the monks, not with paladins. Having to balance melee vs standard healing and chi generation (aka jab-jab-uplift) completely screwed things up for them imo. But it has nothing to do with paladins.
    I don't know what raids you do and what monks you heal with, but they are completely fine. They are strong and chi generation is not an issue if they adjusted to the jab changes. Jab jab uplift was too strong and was changed accordingly.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-04-17 at 01:13 PM.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttle View Post
    I highly doubt you are reaching 40.60% mastery. Even with Blessing Of Might, it's not even remotely obtainable with an ilvl of 517.

    The nerf blows, however I do believe it's somewhat-not really-eh warranted. We aren't dominating not like monk's did in 5.0, but we are fairly strong to the point where there is no point in bringing anything to raid besides a Paladin, monk or priest. It would have been better to buff Shaman, holy priests and Resto Druid instead of nerfing us. I'm hoping we aren't the only healer class to get the nerf bat as Disc priests & monks are just as strong.

    Regardless, the nerf is quite bad but they also nerfed our tier 14 4p which will result in almost every holy paladin swapping to current ilvl gear. It'll be nice going from ilvl 517 to 535 ilvls. Additionally, the changes to Holy Shock make our tier 15 2pc not as dog shit so I'll take it over the mastery changes.
    My pally is sitting at 37% at 509 jock its really not that hard, raid buffed that is

  14. #94
    I'm reading all these assumptions. Has anyone the real numbers of the nerf on the PTR?

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocana View Post
    I'm reading all these assumptions. Has anyone the real numbers of the nerf on the PTR?
    The real numbers are that to keep doing EF blanketing to the same degree without the T14 bonus, we'd have to spend almost double the mana to do it, which would put your average geared Hpally oom in 2 minutes or less, the meta gem plausibly pushing us back up to 3 minutes, looking to drop Mastery in-line with our current #2 most healed abilities (ie 30%+ down to 22-25% total healing done) which drops us to a more reasonable level, not including the changes we have to make to adjust to the old rotation

    Basically we're looking at about a 10-15% overall throughput nerf until such a point where we can sustain the HR > HR > HS rotation, which will probably be around normal thunderforged gear level (528), slightly lower with smart meta usage and good raid cooldown usage
    Last edited by Xs; 2013-04-17 at 01:14 PM.

  16. #96
    Ty for the response Xs...10-15% is huge...the EF blanketing will be not viable if the mana cost is that higher...maybe is time to switch to sacred shield and the 4 PC T15 bonus can places us as mainly tank healer, swapping the beacon on main and off tank...and the mastery drop maybe will put us to look into the haste gear. Any thoughts and ideas...if not clear my thoughts, Sorry for the bad english.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post



    We don't have good on the move healing. We don't have a huge spike raid damage cooldown like Divine Hymn, Tranq, MTT (best we can do is Holy Avenger+Divine Favor). Seriously the paladins that are topping on wol are using EF blanketing which is healing consistent raid damage over time not huge spikes of damage. So follow your own advice and get your facts straight. You saying disc has too little healing is pretty laughable since anyone with sense knows that is not the case. If paladins were as strong as you say then WoL would be nothing but paladins healers like it was with monks and disc priests before their nerfs, but instead the logs are full of Monks, Disc Priests and Paladins with occasional Resto Shaman and Holy priest. You are basically grasping for straws.
    I am talking about raw healing. Disc has absorbs to make up for the lack of raw healing the spec has, and for some fights absorbs don't work as well as healing so eventhough its not big, it is a weakness.

    Hpaladins have pretty good on the move healing imo. You have talents like sanctified wrath to make on the move healing possible, and considering you can build up HP before the move..You can manage to heal on the move as a hpaladin and even more than that can heal pretty well on the move if the movement doesn't go on for the entire fight or something and in that case any healer except resto druids would suck atm.
    And yes you don't have a huge healing cooldown like tranquility which is like I said your only weakness if that even be considered a weakness considering you have 4 cooldowns to increase your output.

    Did you try healing spread targets as a shaman? healing high raid damage as a rdruid? tank healing as a mw? tank healing as a holypriest in chakra:sanctuary? I am not saying that holy paladins can do all of these better than any other healer, but it is a little unfair to say that holy paladins have their weaknesses. I do agree that the t14 4 set bonus is making holy paladins a lot better than they would be without it though(holy shock is way too good imo) but I am unsure whether removing holy paladins' capabilities or buffing other healers' is the right approach.
    Last edited by Rorschachs; 2013-04-17 at 02:23 PM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocana View Post
    I'm reading all these assumptions. Has anyone the real numbers of the nerf on the PTR?
    I've been on the PTR and I don't think it's been updated with these changes yet, as my mastery remains untouched.

  19. #99
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    I am talking about raw healing. Disc has absorbs to make up for the lack of raw healing the spec has, and for some fights absorbs don't work as well as healing so eventhough its not big, it is a weakness.

    Hpaladins have pretty good on the move healing imo. You have talents like sanctified wrath to make on the move healing possible, and considering you can build up HP before the move..You can manage to heal on the move as a hpaladin and even more than that can heal pretty well on the move if the movement doesn't go on for the entire fight or something and in that case any healer except resto druids would suck atm.
    And yes you don't have a huge healing cooldown like tranquility which is like I said your only weakness if that even be considered a weakness considering you have 4 cooldowns to increase your output.

    Did you try healing spread targets as a shaman? healing high raid damage as a rdruid? tank healing as a mw? tank healing as a holypriest in chakra:sanctuary? I am not saying that holy paladins can do all of these better than any other healer, but it is a little unfair to say that holy paladins have their weaknesses. I do agree that the t14 4 set bonus is making holy paladins a lot better than they would be without it though(holy shock is way too good imo) but I am unsure whether removing holy paladins' capabilities or buffing other healers' is the right approach.
    Sanctified Wrath is a horrible talent that no holy paladin in their right mind will take. So we can heal on the move if we stack our holy power prior to the move. So we can use like 1 3-point LoD or Eternal Flame and then 2-point or more likely shock and then another 3 point heal, then we will have to stop to cast Holy Radiance to get power. Can't do that on the move and it isn't enough to alleviate burst raid damage. If you have a huge burst damage phase during a time you have move, a paladin will not be able to cover it. You will likely have to use a MTT or druid with sym on a shaman to cast tranq on the move. We have 3 cooldowns to increase throughput-Divine Favor, Avenging Wrath, GoAK. We have Holy Avenger if we talent it, then the EF blanketing isn't going to be as strong because we dropped Divine Purpose. And those cooldowns are greater than what other healers have how exactly? Pretty sure every healer has equivalents or other cooldowns to match those. Those cooldowns aren't what make paladins strong atm. You are also overestimating Holy shock. Holy shock itself isn't an issue, the lower cooldown allows us to get holy power at a quicker rate so we can EF blanket or LoD more. But HS itself is not going to heal the raid to full, which you seem to be implying by suggesting taking the Sancified wrath talent.

    Are you really trying to say absorbs are not effective healing now? There is one fight where absorbs do not trump raw healing so it means disc is weak? So how is holy paladin mastery overpowered then? It makes up a good 35-40% of our healing now. Tortos isn't a holy paladin favored fight either. Our mastery is very little effect on the shields. Pretty much every healer would love to convert some of their raw healing to absorbs. Balancing absorbs is an issue blizzard has had to deal with for a while and has been increased tenfold this expansion.

    So why are you bringing up classes I didn't mention? Did I say anything about shaman and druids? I am pretty sure I have posted many times resto druids and shaman need a boost, so it really isn't relevant when responding to my post. Basically it looks like you think paladins should be nerfed because of the shortcomings of other classes.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-04-17 at 03:36 PM.

  20. #100
    Healing meters make people think crazy things!

    I really don't understand addressing "issues" that arise from "low damage situations"- if it's a low damage situation then it's not going to affect your raids success in any way. That means that some of you are *literally arguing that you don't like your place on the meters, even when those meters mean absolutely nothing*.

    Am I the only one who thinks it's entirely pointless to argue about relative strength of healers in "low damage situations"? Stop focusing on healing meters ffs.

    On-topic: Bring on the nerfs! I secretly hope they overdo it on the mastery nerf so I can just go a full crit build

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