Holy Paladin nerfs in PTR patch 5.3

[Deleted]

Feels like many of you are overreacting to this patch nerf, but maybe that's because I have a rather decently geared paladin. I don't feel that paladins are worse at every fight at all. Before the patch we topped pretty much every together with disc priests. Perhaps disc priests require some adjusting aswell as druids after this patch, but if you're so against this new 'slow' playstyle then there are many other healing classes you could reroll. Imagine how shamans feel

Edit: To clarify, the issue is mainly with absorbs at this point, and I think that if they rework the potency of absorbs in general I'm sure our healing outside of IH will look a lot more significant.

I don't think its overreaction when as absorb healers(which favors farm over progress) Paladins are second to last on Spec Score for 25h(with the last being shamans who are built around healing low% raids, a situation more common on progress and not 5.3's farm).

Also,imagine for a second that we would stop having IH completely. Even if our healing was buffed by the exact amount IH is missing, most of the extra healing done would instead be done by Rejuvenation+Shrooms,ReM+Uplift and Attonement.

I think the problem is patch 5.3 targeted the combination of 4p 517 t14+mastery build gemmed etc+legendary metagem+able to melee+6 minute fights vs other healers in that sort of gear. I don't think they took into account the other class changes(specially things like the 25 man raid cds were only added later on) or gear upgrades(other then being scarred by the potential of IH due to mastery increasing).

[Deleted]

Firstly, I just wanted to point out I was only joking when I suggested about Denounce. It was more having a dig at Disc Priests. That said I had never realised how much damage denounce actually did.

Feels like many of you are overreacting to this patch nerf, but maybe that's because I have a rather decently geared paladin. I don't feel that paladins are worse at every fight at all..

I beg to differ. For 10 man heroic Paladins aren't doing well at all.

This is for 10 man heroic, but it isn't much better in 25 man either.

[Deleted]

It's not surprising a gauge of performance based solely on HPS drops when the class got a considerable nerf to HPS.

[Pasture]

Well 10 man should be more static than 25 man. 10s were unaffected by the Tranq / Hymn boost. The problem in 10s right now is the lack of stack fights. Lots of spread fights where we can't utilise our raw power. On fights like Magaera, for example, we're still very strong.

[fjeenzy]

I don't think its overreaction when as absorb healers(which favors farm over progress) Paladins are second to last on Spec Score for 25h(with the last being shamans who are built around healing low% raids, a situation more common on progress and not 5.3's farm).

Also,imagine for a second that we would stop having IH completely. Even if our healing was buffed by the exact amount IH is missing, most of the extra healing done would instead be done by Rejuvenation+Shrooms,ReM+Uplift and Attonement.

I think the problem is patch 5.3 targeted the combination of 4p 517 t14+mastery build gemmed etc+legendary metagem+able to melee+6 minute fights vs other healers in that sort of gear. I don't think they took into account the other class changes(specially things like the 25 man raid cds were only added later on) or gear upgrades(other then being scarred by the potential of IH due to mastery increasing).

Maybe the problems you listed are valid, but I still think that healing in general is a problem with the huge amount of absorbs we're seeing. The absorb 'issue' in addition to something else, which I speculate about; the devs have no idea what they want to do with holy paladins, creates the issues most people are describing in this thread. Are they looking to make holy paladins the strongest tank healers, raid healers or some kind of utility? I think before they decide the answer to that question and comes up with something smart to solve the absorbs, not much will come to change.

[Floopa]

I don't think its overreaction when as absorb healers(which favors farm over progress) Paladins are second to last on Spec Score for 25h(with the last being shamans who are built around healing low% raids, a situation more common on progress and not 5.3's farm).

Also,imagine for a second that we would stop having IH completely. Even if our healing was buffed by the exact amount IH is missing, most of the extra healing done would instead be done by Rejuvenation+Shrooms,ReM+Uplift and Attonement.

I think the problem is patch 5.3 targeted the combination of 4p 517 t14+mastery build gemmed etc+legendary metagem+able to melee+6 minute fights vs other healers in that sort of gear. I don't think they took into account the other class changes(specially things like the 25 man raid cds were only added later on) or gear upgrades(other then being scarred by the potential of IH due to mastery increasing).

Patch 5.4 will address the other healers' issues. Namely what you listed: Rejuv scaling, Atonement and the combination of Renewing Mist and Uplift. I wouldn't be surprised to see a nerf to the legendary meta gem proc too. It's too good in my opinion. It provides such a big increase that you can lose around 4-5k~ spirit as a MW and be totally fine.

[Freia]

Maybe the problems you listed are valid, but I still think that healing in general is a problem with the huge amount of absorbs we're seeing. The absorb 'issue' in addition to something else, which I speculate about; the devs have no idea what they want to do with holy paladins, creates the issues most people are describing in this thread. Are they looking to make holy paladins the strongest tank healers, raid healers or some kind of utility? I think before they decide the answer to that question and comes up with something smart to solve the absorbs, not much will come to change.

Right now the reason why you see the majority of our healing coming from absorbs isn't because our absorbs are too powerful, it is because our actual healing is snipped by other healers. So coming up with some way to solve absorbs right now would not help us if they didn't change other mechanics. And the devs have already said they do not want healers to pigeonhole healers in roles like "tank healer".

Patch 5.4 will address the other healers' issues. Namely what you listed: Rejuv scaling, Atonement and the combination of Renewing Mist and Uplift. I wouldn't be surprised to see a nerf to the legendary meta gem proc too. It's too good in my opinion. It provides such a big increase that you can lose around 4-5k~ spirit as a MW and be totally fine.

Are you just guessing this will happen? Because the only further healer changes I have seen being listed as possible for 5.4 is nerfing Eternal Flame and further changing the potency of absorbs including our mastery, all while making next tier favor hots which would be a buff to monks and druids.

So nerf the meta because it effects some classes more than others? And monks dropped spirit and were gemming int before the meta gem, I highly doubt nerfing the meta would help change that.

[Floopa]

Right now the reason why you see the majority of our healing coming from absorbs isn't because our absorbs are too powerful, it is because our actual healing is snipped by other healers. So coming up with some way to solve absorbs right now would not help us if they didn't change other mechanics. And the devs have already said they do not want healers to pigeonhole healers in roles like "tank healer".



Are you just guessing this will happen? Because the only further healer changes I have seen being listed as possible for 5.4 is nerfing Eternal Flame and further changing the potency of absorbs including our mastery, all while making next tier favor hots which would be a buff to monks and druids.

So nerf the meta because it effects some classes more than others? And monks dropped spirit and were gemming int before the meta gem, I highly doubt nerfing the meta would help change that.

Give the developers some credit and stop crying like a toddler who's lost his favourite action man toy.

They will address class balance in 5.4. You can remember this post - if they don't nerf the things which are currently absurd (what I listed, basically copying Aladya's list of 'things') then feel free to call me wrong but I have every faith Blizzard can do the right thing. They aren't idiots (as much as people like to state it).

[Freia]

Give the developers some credit and stop crying like a toddler who's lost his favourite action man toy.

They will address class balance in 5.4. You can remember this post - if they don't nerf the things which are currently absurd (what I listed, basically copying Aladya's list of 'things') then feel free to call me wrong but I have every faith Blizzard can do the right thing. They aren't idiots (as much as people like to state it).

Looks like you are the one lashing out like a toddler because I questioned what you had to say. I wanted to know if maybe you saw blue posts I didn't. Maybe you should step away from the computer and take a breather.

I don't assume the devs will do anything or trust them completely, because they have made several unneeded changes. I won't make posts claiming they will nerf things when they have made no mention of it. It is just guessing at this point.

[Deleted]

Give the developers some credit and stop crying like a toddler who's lost his favourite action man toy.

They will address class balance in 5.4. You can remember this post - if they don't nerf the things which are currently absurd (what I listed, basically copying Aladya's list of 'things') then feel free to call me wrong but I have every faith Blizzard can do the right thing. They aren't idiots (as much as people like to state it).

I don't think Blizzard developers are idiots, but I don't see them changing either of those things in patch 5.4. I find it a lot more likely for example to see other spells get a mana cost reduction then mistweavers getting a mana cost increase. I dare say in next patch mistweavers will probably drop the legendary metagem anyway.

[Deleted]

Why on earth would a mistweaver drop the legendary meta gem?

[Deleted]

Why on earth would a mistweaver drop the legendary meta gem?

Because if you can't oom the crit % meta is better.

[Deleted]

Because if you can't oom the crit % meta is better.

If you think that <6% extra output, 35% of the time is worth in the region of 8000 spirit I have to seriously question your reasoning.

---------- Post added 2013-06-02 at 04:04 PM ----------

Actually no, ~8000 spirit plus the extra output from the lax spell choices you make to abuse a period of no resource cost.

[Deleted]

...I also like to get a crusader strike in when my meta gem procs for HP generation.

FYI: The metagem makes mana spells free, not physical abilities. So you can get a free denouce or heal, but Crusader Strike still costs mana. Better to try and fit in a flash heal for HP on the beacon and if at all possible a holy shock.

[Freia]

FYI: The metagem makes mana spells free, not physical abilities. So you can get a free denouce or heal, but Crusader Strike still costs mana. Better to try and fit in a flash heal for HP on the beacon and if at all possible a holy shock.

I'll have to wait to test this when I get home to see if this is true or not. All abilities are classified as spells. Spell type or school is what would determine if it was physical, magical, etc. If it is the way you say, then monks wouldn't be able to get free jabs from this meta which I know they can.

[mcbubble]

I'll have to wait to test this when I get home to see if this is true or not. All abilities are classified as spells. Spell type or school is what would determine if it was physical, magical, etc. If it is the way you say, then monks wouldn't be able to get free jabs from this meta which I know they can.

I never looked at the logs, but I'm 99% sure that when I cast Crusader Strike with the meta proc - it doesn't cost mana (at least I don't see my bar move).
I would assume that to be correct based on the meta's description:
+324 Intellect and chance on beneficial spell to make your spells cost no mana for 4 sec.
I know that the CS is from the physical school, but it still costs mana to 'cast', so I assume that it counts as a spell, hence being free.
Would love someone to verify if they can.

[Floopa]

Jab doesn't cost mana with the meta gem proc so I'm certain Crusader Strike doesn't either. Regardless... Wouldn't 2 HR casts be more throughput and more beneficial than a CS?

[Freia]

I think it is more for the times that for whatever reason you couldn't cast more useful spells for the full duration of the proc, you could quickly do a crusader strike and holy shock or something just to get some benefit.

[mcbubble]

I try to stand in melee on the fights where I can so I'm already in melee range.
When my meta procs: If I have Infusion, I cast holy radiance, if not, I flash the beacon (unless there's raid damage of course).
I usually follow with a beacon flash, followed by a Holy Shock.
In the rare case where I'm moving, I'll cast a CS.

[Dubalicious]

Fairly certain CS *does* still costs mana even with the meta proc, but I have no idea why this would be the case.

[E] Testing in a dungeon and on target dummy my mana is going down ~2% each time I CS during the proc.

[E2] Because I was curious I tested Judging, which appears to not cost mana but I can only see full %'s on my UI so not 100% certain it's accurate