Patch 2.0b: PvP changes

[WarpedAcorn]

That's why I mentioned Chess because there is no advantage to having the black pieces or the white pieces. But you're absolutely right, no sports teams or athletes are dead even in all aspects. And having stat and experience advantage doesn't even guarantee a win. I still remember Belarus vs. Sweden back in 2002 where Sweden had every advantage...they were even twice the size of the Belarus team. But somehow Belarus got the win, and it was amazing.

[Kelimbror]

But somehow Belarus got the win, and it was amazing.

I admit that when you are playing with a system of numbers, like in a video game, it's much harder to overcome statistical advantages than in real world competition. There are many more incalculable variables when dealing with nature than a numerically determined rule set.

I'm sure even real world scenarious could be reduced to numbers, though with much more complex alogrithims and a nature of unpredictability that can be estimated with probability. In any event, overcoming real world advantages is normally easier because of things like adrenaline, human error, the way real danger/threats affect your body's capabilities. Whereas when you smash buttons, they aren't going to ever do something different.

[threads]

I'll repeat what I said in another thread on the swtor forums.

Bolster is a great idea for regular warzones. It should be for casual pvpers and such to have fun for an hour or two a day without worrying about their gear. This is why people enjoy the lower level brackets and quit when they would hit 50.

They should remove it from the RANKED warzones so that those 'hardcore' pvpers can grind out their gear and start actually using the system for competitive play. I feel like a lot the problem is that people were just using regular warzones as a way to grind out their elite gear without actually engaging in any competitive play because they were farming badly geared players all day.

[davispunx]

My old expertiseless level 50 pvp gear is actually pretty good PVE gear now. About the same as campaign. If I had known this was going to happen I probably would have ground out a set for my alts as it only took about week to get full WH.

[Deleted]

If PVPer says he will quit the game if Devs remove gear progression from PVP - then he is not PVPer.
PVPer is someone who enjoys PVP, not gear, doh.

This is - technically - correct.

However in MMO you have to add one aspect, opportunity cost. People, well most people anyway, have limited time to waste on a game. In an MMO they can use that limited time on PVE or on PVP. If one of them rewards shinies and the other does not, many people will be heavily predisposed to prefer the more rewarding activity.

For that reason alone, I think fully balanced PVP without item progression is very unlikely to happen and would be a waste of development time. Skill will remain a minor factor at best in MMO PVP and I think most people participating in it are fine with that. There are also too many other factors besides gear influencing games and preventing a pure "test of skills": voice communication, group composition, character spec (especially in a game without dual spec) just to name a few.

After a Starcraft II 1v1 I know skill decided the outcome, after a SWTOR PVP match I rarely get that impression.

[Elim Garak]

The PVP gear itself is not a problem. I don't mind PVPers having gear progression in non-rated WZ/BGs/Arenas or world PVP. But in rated environment - all gear should be normalized and serve only as visual flavor and PVP should be balanced around that.

[Deleted]

The PVP gear itself is not a problem. I don't mind PVPers having gear progression in non-rated WZ/BGs/Arenas or world PVP. But in rated environment - all gear should be normalized and serve only as visual flavor and PVP should be balanced around that.

I think this would be a good change.

As things stand you struggle to get into a ranked team unless you have fully augmented BiS PvP gear, lots of people don't have the time to grind out those items in normal WZs so this sort of change would allow more people to try out ranked PvP. If they are good enough they would retain their place in a team, if not they would be omitted. At least your omission would be based on lack of skill/teamwork and not sub standard gear.

Your ranked PvP reward would be the competition and you could get the opportunity to earn some outrageously OTT looking gear (thinking lvl60 WoW PvP gear).

[Deleted]

Well Im not bothered until it's "removed limits to warzones for f2p"
Or well, they can charge as much money as they like for endgame pvp, but leveling in warzones was really fun. When that day will come, I will be happy. But as it seems now, it most likely will never happen

[Golden]

If loot bags were awarded for winning a warzone and inside the bag maybe you had a 5% chance to get a token you could turn in for a piece of raid gear, I would keep PvPing even if gear didn't matter in PvP itself.

Most MMOs are primarily PvE with a side-game of PvP anyway. I personally don't have a problem PvPing to get better PvE gear in a MMO.

[Varabently]

If PVPer says he will quit the game if Devs remove gear progression from PVP - then he is not PVPer.
PVPer is someone who enjoys PVP, not gear, doh.

gotta agree here. I find it hilarious when top tier players get upset when newer players get better "welfare" gear. If you are truely a good player, why would it matter? Why should you need a huge gear advantage?

Gear is important to pvp, you don't want a free pvp set when you ding level cap. That seems against MMOs. Every successful MMO has had some level of a gear grind. It keeps people playing, gives you a sense of accomplishment, and allows you to get more powerful. The trick is that gear can't be so good that new players get exploded in pvp and are discouraged from playing, by virtue of their starting time.

[Psychlon]

PvP player complaining about "newer" people being on par with them aren't PvP player. They do enjoy their advantage of playing the game longer and naturally having better gear as gear in pvp is not given for playing successfull but much more on how much you are playing. If they would give gear for number of objectives completed/ people defeated/ high heal/damage or scoring 50 times in huttball, that would be different. The reason I pvp is mostly because it varies from game to game. Different players, different ideas etc. it keeps the game interesting.

[WarpedAcorn]

The reason I pvp is mostly because it varies from game to game. Different players, different ideas etc. it keeps the game interesting.

Quote for truth. Its been a long time since I was able to log in to an MMO and spends night after night fighting the same NPC's with the same mechanics using the same tactics. PvP does provide a lot more variability not only in difficulty level, but in group composition as well. But I also like winning "things". Gear progession is a way to improve your character, but even in a game like LoL you "win" currency to buy new Champions or Profile upgrades. Say what you will, but a part of appeal to us as gamers is "winning" and "unlocking" stuff. Its one reason Achievements in games were such a bit hit (and all that gives you is a virtual trophy).

[inboundpaper]

Sooo, anyone have some quick thoughts, better or worse than 1.2 pvp changes?

[Angella]

That's why I mentioned Chess because there is no advantage to having the black pieces or the white pieces. But you're absolutely right, no sports teams or athletes are dead even in all aspects. And having stat and experience advantage doesn't even guarantee a win. I still remember Belarus vs. Sweden back in 2002 where Sweden had every advantage...they were even twice the size of the Belarus team. But somehow Belarus got the win, and it was amazing.

Incorrect. Advantage goes to the player using the white pieces. Edge is about 3%.

---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 07:30 AM ----------

Also the difference in gear from WH to EWH was what? 1%? maybe 3-5% after buff stacking? SWTOR has the lowest benefit to top-tier pvp gear I've ever seen in an mmo.