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  1. #1
    High Overlord CaptainCAPLS0CK's Avatar
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    [Prot] Which Wrathion Cloak?

    With the upcoming Wrathion cloaks, I started pondering which one would actually suit my Protection Paladin better as I gear for haste. Would other haste-prot players agree that the DPS cloak is worth considering atleast? The crit can be reforged to hit/exp, whereas if one chose the tanking cloak we lose the option of haste AND hit/exp.

    +918 Mastery
    +918 Haste
    +918 Crit

    vs

    +918 Mastery
    +918 Dodge
    +918 Parry
    No no, it's meant to be spelled like that.

  2. #2
    2 useful stats vs 1, its not even a competition

  3. #3
    Unless they make haste useless to us at the same time they introduce this cloak (doubtful), or make dodge/parry orders of magnitude better than they currently are, there's no question that the dps cloak is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  4. #4
    Wasn't aware there was a debate here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  5. #5
    If these cloaks actually make it to live that is. Highly unlikely Imo. It would mean that they're even gonna be better then SoO HC cloaks. (I cant see them going to Ilvl 600 in SoO)

  6. #6
    With the ilvl stats I personally use they're of about equal value, largely because the stam socket bonus boosts the tank one back up a bit.

    I'm inclined to pick up the dps cloak personally. Hoping they don't go live with that itemisation though.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dotmore View Post
    If these cloaks actually make it to live that is. Highly unlikely Imo. It would mean that they're even gonna be better then SoO HC cloaks. (I cant see them going to Ilvl 600 in SoO)
    Why would an expansion-long legendary quest reward be hamstrung based on ilvl of a raid? SoO heroics should be in the neighborhood of 570ish, not counting any TF-type options, so 30 ilvl doesnt seem like a big stretch.

    Even so, DPS option will be better than "tank" option hands down, barring some insane changes in 5.3/5.4 to SoB or other abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  8. #8
    Haste is better than dodge or parry, but not twice as good, as far as I'm aware. So 1800ish avoidance should be better than 900 haste.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Meteoric View Post
    Haste is better than dodge or parry, but not twice as good, as far as I'm aware. So 1800ish avoidance should be better than 900 haste.
    I would take 400 haste over 1800 avoidance, but thats just me. In my gear sets, avoidance got a value of almost 0. Also, reforging.
    Dodge and parry is really really really terrible stats and are getting very overestimated by most people. Which is think is because the current methodology of tanking theorycrafting is severaly overvalueing dodge/parry compared to reality, so a lot of people miss to realise how terrible they really are.

    You are comparing 2 good stats vs 1 good stat. Those cloaks are not even a competition. There is really no argument for the tank cloak. Also, if you are gonna mention the avoidance, remember that the dps cloak got crit which is in my opinon better than dodge or parry. Crit is not good, but neither is dodge or parry.

    Basically, you are comparing 918 haste and 551 crit vs 1469 avoidance, because of reforging.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-18 at 10:58 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #10
    +918 Mastery
    +918 Haste
    +918 Crit -> reforge to hit or expertise

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Meteoric View Post
    Haste is better than dodge or parry, but not twice as good, as far as I'm aware. So 1800ish avoidance should be better than 900 haste.
    How are you coming to this conclusion?

    Dodge and Parry have a relative value of 0, whereas Haste and Mastery are our top stats. Hell, even Crit is more "useful" than D/P. Avoidance is really only useful on multi-target fights...are you really going to waste your cape choice to fill the role of Tortos bat-tank marginally better?

    900 Haste, Mastery, and 900 Crit -> 550Crit/350accuracy stat of choice. So, considering crit as a "wasted" stat, you have 550 poor itemization points. Total haste: 900.

    vs.

    900 Dodge, Parry, Mastery -> can reforge one of the avoidance stats to 350 accuracy (or haste), and you end up with only 1450 wasted stat points. Total haste: 350.

    Tell me again how there is even a debate here?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Tell me again how there is even a debate here?
    But, I read on noxxic/icy veins guide that...



    Feels like most of the debates about paladin tanking comes from bad sources of information or people not understanding how current tanking theorycrafting translates into real tanking.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #13
    That, or some raging (and clueless) DPS or raid leader coming in:

    "HAY GUZY WTF our tank tried to roll on dps gear and said it was good. Tell me he's dumb right? Tanks want dodge and parry!"

    Old habits/mantras die hard, I suppose.

    I STILL have people that get bent out of shape at tank damage in raids. Like, literally upset with me that my damage is higher than most of the actual DPS. "Shouldn't you be wearing dodge/parry and gemming stamina? I mean, you have gear with Crit on it, and the wrong meta-gem FFS!" "Why? I didn't die, healers weren't OOM, and I out-DPS'd AND out-healed damn near everyone." "Yeah, but that can't be right, Blizz will fix it". I like to tell them that I rolled Prot to DPS, since Ret is middle of the pack.

    Hopefully in 6.0 they will just scrap D/P gear altogether.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Dodge and Parry have a relative value of 0, whereas Haste and Mastery are our top stats.
    Hey, now you're just being mean to poor ol' avoidance. Zero? More like ... eh ... almost zero. And since the Grand Crusader change, slightly more than almost zero!

    Quote Originally Posted by Meteoric View Post
    Haste is better than dodge or parry, but not twice as good, as far as I'm aware.
    You are correct...in a way. Haste is more like twenty to thirty times as good as dodge or parry.

  15. #15
    So I would be correct to assume you use mastery enchant on shield Nairobi?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So I would be correct to assume you use mastery enchant on shield Nairobi?
    Negative. If there was a haste option, maybe. But 50 Mastery (really, 50 of any stat) is so minute when you're looking at stat pools of 30,000 that I just opt for Parry. 170 makes me feel like I'm at least getting something out of the enchant, albeit small. I do wish there was another option (ANY option) for 150+ of a secondary stat, because I don't favor this enchant, but I'd say it's about as useful as 50 mastery (to me).

    However, I will say that this is part of my experiment into STR stacking as a viable tank option, via use of HC Feather of JiKun and HC Spark of Zandalar. Intelligent use/abuse of procs (which often overlap, as the uptime on both trinkets is insane when you have 15000+ haste and a 1hander) yields 1) hugely buffed sacred shields, and 2) non-trivial amounts of parry.

    Granted, this was initially an effort to push out maximum DPS, but I find that the proccing 20 (TWENTY)% extra avoidance IS noticeable, and a "free" side effect of the DPS gains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    How are you coming to this conclusion?

    Dodge and Parry have a relative value of 0, whereas Haste and Mastery are our top stats. Hell, even Crit is more "useful" than D/P.
    Dodge and parry definitely do not have zero value. Nor are they thirty times worse than Haste, or even worse than crit, or similar. That's rampant hyperbole. They're definitely not our favorite stats, but they're not worthless either.

    However, upon further reading I was apparently wrong about the ratio; Theck's weights for a control/haste build have avoidance worth half as much as haste:
    http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.p...32998#msg32998

    ...which would make the haste vs avoidance roughly a wash on the two cloaks, and then the extra crit (reforged to hit/exp, presumably) and the usefulness for offset clearly favor the DPS cloak.

  18. #18
    Problem with using Theck's math on avoidance is you have to take it with a grain of salt, in a Patchwerk environment Dodge/Parry are fairly reasonable which is great, but in a realistic model with the current damage system that Blizzard are using for most bosses, the amount of damage you take overall actually means nothing compared to the amount of easily accessible mitigation you have for one specific burst of damage (extreme examples: Sha, Tortos etc.) as a result you can't really sim all that much for D/P.
    As a result of this style as well, with us having a very high up time on ShotR and having access to it pretty much when ever we want on demand, there's a greatly reduced requirement for us to take any less sustained damage, specially when it mitigates physical, so we start to value ourselves more as a DPS, in which case crit can be valued atleast equally to Dodge/Parry if not higher.

    The ultimate answer to this question is to ask your healers and look at your own personal raid logs, are you the hardest tank to heal? If thats the case then sure, get some value on D/P, but if others are more difficult than you with no gear based reasoning then you have no reason to become easier, because they'll always have to gear themselves around that hard to heal tank, then waste themselves on the easier ones.

    Long winded retort is long winded

  19. #19
    I'm not terribly familiar with the details of Theck's calculations, but from what I understand, he's not basing those weights on total damage taken, but on modeling actual boss behavior and measuring how stats affect a tank's ability to actually survive - in other words, he's already accounting for the way that SotR is more valuable than its uptime might naively imply. That's why Stamina has a non-zero weight, for example. Unless I'm misunderstanding your objection?

  20. #20
    Everything I've read from him indicates he uses a standard Patchwerk style 1.5 second swing timer boss encounter for the majority of his calculations, not sure how correct that is as I don't have the interest in reading 4 pages of University level maths if the basic principals demonstrated are void to me, but if you can prove to me otherwise then I can retract at least some of my earlier statement

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