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  1. #21
    I too keep a value of really 0 on dodge and parry. I prefer agility or intellect over them, though they are not really secondary stats... Hmm... I would rather take 100 crit than 500 dodge rating, really, that is how useless i feel those stats to be. Now that is presuming them as secondary stats. As nairobi pointed out several times, two strength procc trinkets provide a non-trivial amount of parry. Str is not terrible either as it provides AP aswell. Avoidance is all about the throughput which makes them.... Less shitty?... as procs compared to other stats. Like mastery, on use mastery, is like nutella, best thing ever and makes you fat. Proc mastery, meee, also good but not as good.
    But avoidance is the opposite, raw stat useless, proc. Hmm
    just a tiny bit shittty

    The problem with the stat values of avoidance again come from how crude the boss behaviour is in thecks simulations. In a 5 year long patchwerk fight, they are not so terrible. But i dont see any fights like that. Reality is that on actual boss fights, they are completely worthless. (unless on massive str procs on which they are just a nice benefit.)
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-21 at 04:58 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Everything I've read from him indicates he uses a standard Patchwerk style 1.5 second swing timer boss encounter for the majority of his calculations, not sure how correct that is as I don't have the interest in reading 4 pages of University level maths if the basic principals demonstrated are void to me, but if you can prove to me otherwise then I can retract at least some of my earlier statement
    Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, that does appear to be what he does, but he's not just looking at overall damage taken and calling least overall damage = best. For example this post shows an Avoidance build taking the least damage total, but he doesn't declare it the winner (among other reasons, it also has the highest standard deviation - which is to say, it puts you more at the mercy of luck, as we would expect). And yeah, not including boss specials means haste is more valuable than just the data would suggest (although the conclusion does note that the value of using SotR intelligently rather than blindly, which is why he doesn't end up declaring Control/Mastery the winner).
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The problem with the stat values of avoidance again come from how crude the boss behaviour is in thecks simulations. In a 5 year long patchwerk fight, they are not so terrible. But i dont see any fights like that. Reality is that on actual boss fights, they are completely worthless. (unless on massive str procs on which they are just a nice benefit.)
    Again, this isn't evaluating them based on their total damage prevention over a long fight. That would be stupid. That's why most of the chart examines strings of just a few attacks.

    I'm not disputing that haste/mastery are clearly and significantly better than avoidance. Still, avoidance does not have zero value.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Meteoric View Post

    Again, this isn't evaluating them based on their total damage prevention over a long fight. That would be stupid. That's why most of the chart examines strings of just a few attacks.

    I'm not disputing that haste/mastery are clearly and significantly better than avoidance. Still, avoidance does not have zero value.
    Very true! Jusr reminded me that othrr than providing 0 survivability avoidance alsi lowers your dps, Through fewer AB procs (which outweigh GC procs) which would put the actual value on negative, below 0 that is
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-21 at 08:57 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Very true! Jusr reminded me that othrr than providing 0 survivability avoidance alsi lowers your dps, Through fewer AB procs (which outweigh GC procs) which would put the actual value on negative, below 0 that is
    This just reminds me how when I use my Wings to up my damage during trinket procs, I never get AB procs cuz 50%+ avoidance . Stupid ji'kun feather

  5. #25
    I must be having a brain fart ... what's an AB proc?

  6. #26
    so much baddies in this thread.

    parry and dodge is ofc not that bad like u can read on EJ or Tankspot - but haste / mastery are for sure better.

    but such posts like "i prefer agi/int/crit over parry haste" makes me... bah.

    ontopic :

    dps cloak with crit > hit or exp should be the better choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Very true! Jusr reminded me that othrr than providing 0 survivability avoidance alsi lowers your dps, Through fewer AB procs (which outweigh GC procs) which would put the actual value on negative, below 0 that is


    what are u talking about?

    u maybe lose a tiny bit of dps (and not even that in reality) and gain a chance for 1 hopo and also mitigated an attack- and u are saying its value is negative? lol.

    nothing realy agains u, but u are not playing a paly tank actually or?
    Last edited by Vanos; 2013-04-22 at 01:48 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    I must be having a brain fart ... what's an AB proc?
    Alabaster Shield

  8. #28
    So funny seeing the novices of prot paladins talk referring to different guides and stuff.

    @Vanos yes i play prot paladin and has been so for a long while. I have always been a few steps ahead of current tank theorycrafting. When MoP released I was a vigilant defender of haste, BH glyoh and the likes of that, and was pretty much laughed at. So I am used to it. In time also you will understand tanking. All it takes is for theck to release a blog post in 2-3 months "oh avoidance is worse than expected" and all the sheep follows.
    Differnce between you and me, is that instead of blindly folllowing others, I read, learn and UNDERSTAND what others have said, like EJ, but instead of gullably trusting others information, I question it to see, is it true? I then make my own theorycrafting and using common sense (something only a few have), I make a decision based on my own and others work. So you see, the problem with telling me to go read sonewhere is that I already have, learned it, took it into considertion and either approved or dismissed it.


    To further on avoidance. Avoidance is the only stat that is 100% random, it is not reliable. I can never guarantee an avoid.
    When I tank, I rely on my skills and my CDs, not lady fortuna to save me.
    Even with 50% avoidance there is a 25% chance to take 2 full hits in a row.
    Not to mention how badly it syncronise with block.
    Then you have to ask yourself, how effective is an avoid? As I can not predict them. If I knew that everyfifth attack wxactly, I dodged, then fine! Awesome. But you can dodge 10 in a row or not1 in 100. So when I actually avoid an attack that means that both me and my healers was prepared for the next attack, likely I had a cd or sotr up or was at 100% hp, heals were already incoming and my own SoI only results in overhealing, so even though I maybe dodged a 200k attack, that just became 200k overhealing on me to no real use.

    In short, randomness sucks. Because you can never predict a d/p they become useless only resulting in overhealing. Rely on steadiness as tank. You should be able to survive stuff 100% of the time without luck.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Hopefully in 6.0 they will just scrap D/P gear altogether.
    they already got rid of tanking only weapons (I just deny this dodge parry mace from primordius I got this week from extra roll...), so I think it's about time to get rid of dodge/parry (on items) altogether.

    we have an active mitigation tanking system, which pretty much forces us to hit/exp hardcaps, and then we have haste, mastery and crit. that's five stats to care about for everyone. who needs still parry and dodge on items?

    everyone gets 5% base dodge/parry. then leather/mail tanks (for the latter: if there are any in the future, who knows) get dodge from agi, and plate tanks get parry from strength. I know they already do, but in the same ratio as agility gives dodge (I don't know if this isn't already working this way either).
    This definitely would cause problems in pvp (because str classes already have high(er) armor, thus additional parry chances could be imbalanced. but then again, this is perfectly possible to resolve via pvp power. more pvp power = decreased chance to be parried by the opponent.

    that way, dodge/parry remains in the game (and I'm 99% sure they WANT some RNG in the game, they don't want to have RNG removed. so they won't remove dodge/parry completely), but at the same time we don't have to mess with them on the gear. It's pretty much always a discussion with plate DPS, who argue "well even if it is better, you have the choice between taking dodge/parry items or not, but dodge/parry items have 0 benefit for DPS". while this is true, D/P remains crap, so basically every item that drops with D/P is sharded currently...

    Removing it from gear and binding it to str/agi makes things a lot easier.
    Last edited by xebtria; 2013-04-22 at 07:09 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanos View Post
    so much baddies in this thread.

    what are u talking about?

    u maybe lose a tiny bit of dps (and not even that in reality) and gain a chance for 1 hopo and also mitigated an attack- and u are saying its value is negative? lol.

    nothing realy agains u, but u are not playing a paly tank actually or?
    You lost a lot more than a tiny bit of dps.
    If you don't understand the benefit that int plate with haste/mastery provides over str parry/dodge you don't really get what paladin tanking is about.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    You lost a lot more than a tiny bit of dps.
    If you don't understand the benefit that int plate with haste/mastery provides over str parry/dodge you don't really get what paladin tanking is about.
    But but theck said!..

  12. #32
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    This definitely would cause problems in pvp (because str classes already have high(er) armor, thus additional parry chances could be imbalanced. but then again, this is perfectly possible to resolve via pvp power. more pvp power = decreased chance to be parried by the opponent.
    Just how valuable is dodge/parry in pvp anyway? You already cannot dodge/parry while stunned or dodge/parry attacks that come from behind, let alone spell damage.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Just how valuable is dodge/parry in pvp anyway? You already cannot dodge/parry while stunned or dodge/parry attacks that come from behind, let alone spell damage.
    Like you said, basically worthless.

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    I'm not starting a discussion about usability of dodge/parry in pvp now (I'm not a pvper myself to qualify me for this to begin with...), it was just a try IF someone argues "but that would be too op in pvp then", that this COULD be resolved via pvp power. if there isnt a problem, then nothing has to be fixed then.

    and the whole point of my post was: Blizzard pretty much will not remove d/p from the game altogether, because they WANT that random factor to be in the game, they stated this several times. So my suggestion would just be, remove d/p from the gear. and to make up for this, give agi dodge and str parry, in a way that let's say a druid and a monk get 1% dodge from 1k agi and pala, dk, warrior get 1% parry from 1k str (numbers are made up, just to illustrate that the ratio should be equal). this numbers must be balanced then so the average avoidance remains equal to what it is now, we just don't have to bother with it on gear itself.

    they are constantly aiming for removing gear that is "just for that one spec". there are three types of items left which are:
    - str tanking items with dodge+x, parry+x, dodge+parry. suggestion above.
    - agi daggers. they could make enh shamans/monks scale with daggers simultaneously as ambush (the spell) does scale xyz% + abc dmg with daggers and zyx% + cba dmg with non-daggers. at the end it only will be a number crunching for spells which are weapon damage based and PPMs (which should be a non-issue if every PPM is converted to RPPM)
    - plate int/spirit gear. since the removal of int being related to the manapool, they could do it similar as they did with shadowpriests, moonkins and eleshamans: for healpaladins, str=int and hit/exp = spirit. maybe spirit is a bit more difficult here... but you get the idea. just limit it to plate items, so they remain "casters" for neck, back, weapons, rings and trinkets. or something like this, again, I'm not doing the number crunching here.

    but well, wow is not a request concert, and this is certainly not topic to this thread anymore...

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    I'm not starting a discussion about usability of dodge/parry in pvp now (I'm not a pvper myself to qualify me for this to begin with...), it was just a try IF someone argues "but that would be too op in pvp then", that this COULD be resolved via pvp power. if there isnt a problem, then nothing has to be fixed then.

    and the whole point of my post was: Blizzard pretty much will not remove d/p from the game altogether, because they WANT that random factor to be in the game, they stated this several times. So my suggestion would just be, remove d/p from the gear. and to make up for this, give agi dodge and str parry, in a way that let's say a druid and a monk get 1% dodge from 1k agi and pala, dk, warrior get 1% parry from 1k str (numbers are made up, just to illustrate that the ratio should be equal). this numbers must be balanced then so the average avoidance remains equal to what it is now, we just don't have to bother with it on gear itself.

    they are constantly aiming for removing gear that is "just for that one spec". there are three types of items left which are:
    - str tanking items with dodge+x, parry+x, dodge+parry. suggestion above.
    - agi daggers. they could make enh shamans/monks scale with daggers simultaneously as ambush (the spell) does scale xyz% + abc dmg with daggers and zyx% + cba dmg with non-daggers. at the end it only will be a number crunching for spells which are weapon damage based and PPMs (which should be a non-issue if every PPM is converted to RPPM)
    - plate int/spirit gear. since the removal of int being related to the manapool, they could do it similar as they did with shadowpriests, moonkins and eleshamans: for healpaladins, str=int and hit/exp = spirit. maybe spirit is a bit more difficult here... but you get the idea. just limit it to plate items, so they remain "casters" for neck, back, weapons, rings and trinkets. or something like this, again, I'm not doing the number crunching here.

    but well, wow is not a request concert, and this is certainly not topic to this thread anymore...
    Last i checked the you do get about 1% parry per 1k str, and certain amount of dodge per agility.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    Stuff about things
    Definitely on the same wavelength here. Just wanted to touch on a few points:

    1) HPal is perhaps the worst offender of "specialized loot" ever. If we had a ranged paladin DPS spec (aka Shockadin) or something, or if UH DKs used Int plate, I'd be less up in arms about this, but yes, having 8-9 pieces of loot for ONE SPEC OF ONCE CLASS per raid is silly, esp when (in our raid at least) some raids don't even have an HPal. Moving away from INT plate and giving Holy a stat conversion overhaul would be great. Let them get SP from STR (like Sword of Light, but 100%), hit/exp give spirit, haste/mast/crit give their normal benefits.

    2) Removal of D/P frees up SO much space from loot that is otherwise sharded. D/P are simply traps for undereducated tanks. "OH LOOK! Plate gear with dodge AND parry! Just what I wanted!" Said no knowledgeable tank, ever. Look at Priomordius' loot table alone. D/P boots, legs, weapon, ring with dodge and shield with dodge. Now, I got lucky and had the shield drop, but no way in hell I'd waste a coin roll on that minefield of avoidance gear. Remove D/P and just let it go, it's not exciting, not enthralling to the user, not visceral, and not predictable/dependable. It's antiquated, archaic and vehemently avoided by all experienced tanks. EVERY plate tank prefers Mastery, hit AND exp caps (of some sort). Paladins, and to an extent DKs even choose haste over D/P. Take a hint. And if you REALLY want to keep that "RNG experience" in the game, do it like this....

    3) Retain the D/P passive scaling via primary stat. Plate tanks get parry from STR, leather tanks get dodge from AGI. So far it's worked well for bears/monks (who were the "DPS-tank-hipsters"), and now that we're getting decent levels of STR, it's not that bad for plate tanks. As noted, I'm a big proponent of the STR trinkets in this tier, and their undeniable contribution to parry via STR is great. It's a fun (and visceral) experience when my trinkets pop; it allows me to game SS for bigger ticks and/or give me decisions to make about cooldowns, which IS enthralling gameplay.

    4) The above is already active, and considered "balanced" on live servers in PVP. Now, whether PVP is balanced for melee vs casters is a whole other ballgame, but not for this topic. Suffice to say that a bit extra melee avoidance from primary stat, when we already have focus on PVPR or PVPP as stat allocations will not break the game. Especially since in RBGs, all you're going to see in terms of melee is a FDK and maybe a rogue anyway! Maybe we can see some "spell dodge/spell parry" to even the playing field? Ugh, digressing...point of this is don't worry about melee in PVP being overpowered from more avoidance.

    The above doesn't solve every issue...there are still ranged weapons being utilized only by 1 class, but it gets rid of some of the worst offenders of item/loot table bloat. It still retains some "RNG nature", but makes tanking more straightforward as well. Would be happy if even 1-2 of these were implemented in 6.0...
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  17. #37
    While i personally thing that D/P gear needs to go (albeit simply because it doesn't correlate with skill, nor it is fun), i don't think that haste is superior for dmg mitigation for warriors or dk's. Granted all it means is that prot warriors need to start benefiting more from crit and dk's need to benefit more from haste.

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Moving away from INT plate and giving Holy a stat conversion overhaul would be great. Let them get SP from STR (like Sword of Light, but 100%), hit/exp give spirit, haste/mast/crit give their normal benefits.
    Among other things, that's just lame. Plus how do you take away the AP from strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Removal of D/P frees up SO much space from loot that is otherwise sharded.
    Right, but now you have a problem where all plate users are competing over the same drops (perhaps the same for cloth right now). That's a bit lame. I'm not denying this isn't already a problem among plate/cloth users. And perhaps this doesn't need to be a problem, more competition for greater amounts of loot drops (and less shards) always equals simply "more loot for the raid."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Retain the D/P passive scaling via primary stat.
    I agree this is a good way to keep avoidance in game for the random factor (all tanks get a reasonable amount) but without gearing specifically for avoidance or dealing with "avoidance cap" issues. Sorry 80 paladins, but perhaps this is a good way to get rid of that BS for good.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    You lost a lot more than a tiny bit of dps.
    If you don't understand the benefit that int plate with haste/mastery provides over str parry/dodge you don't really get what paladin tanking is about.
    and now please read what i wrote again.

    where u come to the conclusion that i lost the point about haste/mastery vs dodge/parry ?

    the discussion was Agi/int vs dodge/parry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So funny seeing the novices of prot paladins talk referring to different guides and stuff.

    @Vanos yes i play prot paladin and has been so for a long while. I have always been a few steps ahead of current tank theorycrafting. When MoP released I was a vigilant defender of haste, BH glyoh and the likes of that, and was pretty much laughed at. So I am used to it. In time also you will understand tanking. All it takes is for theck to release a blog post in 2-3 months "oh avoidance is worse than expected" and all the sheep follows.
    Differnce between you and me, is that instead of blindly folllowing others, I read, learn and UNDERSTAND what others have said, like EJ, but instead of gullably trusting others information, I question it to see, is it true? I then make my own theorycrafting and using common sense (something only a few have), I make a decision based on my own and others work. So you see, the problem with telling me to go read sonewhere is that I already have, learned it, took it into considertion and either approved or dismissed it.


    To further on avoidance. Avoidance is the only stat that is 100% random, it is not reliable. I can never guarantee an avoid.
    When I tank, I rely on my skills and my CDs, not lady fortuna to save me.
    Even with 50% avoidance there is a 25% chance to take 2 full hits in a row.
    Not to mention how badly it syncronise with block.
    Then you have to ask yourself, how effective is an avoid? As I can not predict them. If I knew that everyfifth attack wxactly, I dodged, then fine! Awesome. But you can dodge 10 in a row or not1 in 100. So when I actually avoid an attack that means that both me and my healers was prepared for the next attack, likely I had a cd or sotr up or was at 100% hp, heals were already incoming and my own SoI only results in overhealing, so even though I maybe dodged a 200k attack, that just became 200k overhealing on me to no real use.

    In short, randomness sucks. Because you can never predict a d/p they become useless only resulting in overhealing. Rely on steadiness as tank. You should be able to survive stuff 100% of the time without luck.

    i give a shit about theck, theck has n1 formulas and all but i think 95% of the paladin community know that haste/mastery is the way to go.

    ur words on agi/int vs dodge parry were just wrong, thats all what i sayd. ur right about randomness sucks, thats why nobody goes full parry dodge(even when there are some situation´s where parry/dodge is not that bad) blabla but alone the statement that GC procs are less worth than AS procs are .. bs?

    its now possible to get a nearly 100% uptime on shield (with 4pieces) and a bit of timing i see the nurf coming.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Among other things, that's just lame. Plus how do you take away the AP from strength?
    What's lame; the stats I picked? They're just to make a point. But about the STR removal; who's to say you have to? Let's say you leave STR AP for HPal; now they can go stand in melee and smack the boss for mana like they (usually) do now, they'll just contribute a [small] bit more than they do currently. Still well under the amount of dps contribution from a disc, for example. And if they want to work in J/CS for HoPo gains alongside Holy Shock, what's the problem in that? It'd be like fist-weaving for HPal, which really fits the class more, thematically, anyway. It's not like we don't have precedent for that type of "hybrid healing" either, and factoring in the prominent use/abuse of disc this expansion as a "half-dps" spec to beat enrages, I'd be surprised if we don't see more parity in healer DPS going forward.

    Right, but now you have a problem where all plate users are competing over the same drops (perhaps the same for cloth right now). That's a bit lame. I'm not denying this isn't already a problem among plate/cloth users. And perhaps this doesn't need to be a problem, more competition for greater amounts of loot drops (and less shards) always equals simply "more loot for the raid."
    I agree that plate users clamor for the same items, just as cloth users do. Likewise agility users (be it leather or mail). It's just how the game works. Precedent again here; Bears (and now BRMs) got along fine with their feral/rogue/(now WW) brethren in terms of drop competition; sure it was largely because there WAS no [or very little] "tank" leather, but the world won't stop spinning if we remove "tank" plate either. This would be LESS of a problem if you remove the pieces that nobody wants (i.e. dodge/parry plate, or INT plate if we run with my first issue), so that more of the highly-desired items drop in the first place. I don't see competition as an issue, especially with less shit loot to wade around.

    I agree this is a good way to keep avoidance in game for the random factor (all tanks get a reasonable amount) but without gearing specifically for avoidance or dealing with "avoidance cap" issues. Sorry 80 paladins, but perhaps this is a good way to get rid of that BS for good.
    That was the idea; retain the effect of some randomness, which scales more or less passively, but remove it as a main stat source. Bonus points to you for connecting it to the wacky scaling things at low level as well.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 05:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    While i personally thing that D/P gear needs to go (albeit simply because it doesn't correlate with skill, nor it is fun), i don't think that haste is superior for dmg mitigation for warriors or dk's. Granted all it means is that prot warriors need to start benefiting more from crit and dk's need to benefit more from haste.
    Agreed here and I should have specified...I had this suggestion earlier (in a different thread) for a stat revamp:

    Blood DK would now scale 50% more rune speed with haste for blood. Would set up a Mastery > Haste paradigm, mastery still king, obviously.
    Prot Pal remains as is, focuses on Haste > Mastery
    Prot War now gains additional rage from crits (like bears) and crit chance increases crit block chance: Mastery ~= Crit (based on tunable values)

    This means that while all tanks can and will scale with "dps stats", mastery remains a common theme for tanks (as in, they all want it), allowing for good, meaningful trinkets. This also means that we value different secondary stats, such that competition still exists, and we can interchange items, but each class will pursue a different "BiS list".

    Obviously, rough idea is rough, but you get the gist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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    20k and counting...

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