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  1. #21
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    First, thanks to all who commented or at least read the idea, I respect your opinions even if you like or dislike my idea. Just wanted to make this clear from start since I will attempt to explain some things and I don't want you to think I'm super defensive or something. I know my idea has flaws. But there are some things which I made on purpose some way, and that was what I explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Octavius View Post
    I like it too. Lot of new lore can be built around this idea.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I didn't liked it.
    Not because its bad idea, dont get me wrong your concept is pretty cool, but i simply dont think helfs and ogres are what faction need atm. I simply can't imagine what role they would fill in respective factions, and existing lore puts more limits than it gives possibilities. In my opinion if we ever gonna get new races, they should be something completely new (possibly from another worlds) that would fit into theme of expansion and had add something for faction. High elves are basically what humans are, seeing how human is apparently strongest mage ever etc, and lets face it with majority of elven race in horde all helf lore would be far-fatched. As for ogres do we really need another big guys ? Ogres (even heavily altered) dont really bring anything but models. And it would be quite possible they would end like goblins who despite great models are rarely played. So as far as i go 2 completely new races and no neutral race BS.
    Ok. First thanks for liking the concept. That said thinking about it ogres really may be similar to what Horde already have, but etheral elves would be not, they would give the Alliance something, something important that they lack.
    Now, at a glimpse, looking say at the Horde races, who would you say is the odd one out? You could say blood elves because they're nice looking, but in terms of lore the odd ones out are the forsaken. Why? Because they're the most grey race there, only in the Horde for their own goals and yet scheeming behing everyone, they're like the black sheep. But does she Alliance have a bad sheep? Not really... I mean the dark irons entered the fray, but they seem to have become nicer... night elves don't follow their own ends along, worgen partially but not really...

    But let's think of etheral elves. What are they? They're a part of the Alliance that was lost, they were tortured, experimented upon, and now, when finally they hope to be back to their lands and everything to be happy again... it isn't. They find out part of their race was exterminated and most of the remaining ones joined their former enemies, the trolls and orcs and now suck fel magic from beings. Furthermore, they kicked those that wanted to remain pure! In a way, if you think about it, this is similar to the forsaken idea, the major difference is that etheral elves... do not live on their "ancestral" lands. Because blood elves live there and for now they lack the power to force their way back in.

    But on the other hand, I also talked about a gray race. So the etheral elves join the Alliance, but why? Because it's the lesser of two evils. "wait, what?" yes, think about it this way, they have to chose between their former enemies and parts of their race that backstabbed the ones who remained pure and... the Alliance who also backstabbed their people. In the end, was it not the Alliance that sent spies in Quel'thalas when the blood elves reopened their borders? Was it not the Alliance who sent the night elves to sabotage their sanctums? So then, why would the etheral elves trust the Alliance? In the end, the Alliance betrayed them as much as their blood elven bretheren betrayed the remaining pure high elves in their view. The only difference is that the Alliance accepts them in their lands because of Turalyon.

    So overall, the etheral elves would hate the Horde, for they are their enemies, trolls, orcs, fel suckers... but they wouldn't love the Alliance much either, in the end the Alliance did not help their people why they were gone, they spied on them and put stops in their track.

    But bringing etheral elves and making all remaining high elves into something like them would have a further benefit. Which unplayable race got more lore then some playable races for the Alliance? The high elves. I mean, they were there in Wrath, they were all over, they were there now in MoP, they were there a bit even in Cataclysm. By finally giving a version of high elves to the Alliance you're also giving them some lore from before.

    So overall, the etheral elves would not excel for being super mages, they'd excel in bringing that grey element to the Alliance, an element which no other race brings right now. It would make the Alliance less "oh, we're the good guys".

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    The problem is that by "otherizing" them, they are going to end up with the same out of focus treatment that draenei have.

    blood elves and goblins are the most successful races in terms of lore entanglement, because they already have long presences in the world. On the other end of the spectrum, we have Worgen and Draenei, to races with little agency in world affairs, completely subsidiary to Stormwind.



    Same problem here, completely new races will probably end up with the same out of focus treatment, they are going to be put aside on the next expansion. It is almost pointless to build up new races so they are forgotten one expansion later. If the sole selling point is cool models, there are simpler forms to implement just that.

    Pandaren are going to probably be shoved in the back burner after pandaria unless they develop him the way worgen should have. There are several races in Azeroth with enough lore and permanence to be better candidates for playable -who actually have an impact in the world- instead of wasting resources on a race that is going to be reduced only to a model.

    Naga, High elves, Ogres are three races that have connections with both Azeroth and Outland; they are already fleshed out significantly and ogres and high elves already are part of the playable factions and. Vrykul, Satyr, Nerubian and Mantid are races present in azeroth that have enough of a history to be more than just one trick ponies.

    Jinyu and Hozen are races already pledged to a faction; they could be added as player models without even having to dwell to much in lore; just enough to keep pandaria current in future expansions and add variety without having to build up lore.

    I understand that new and cool races are interesting and desirable to play; but if history as taught us anything is that they lack long term viability.
    Read a bit up for the reply I gave to that argument.
    The etheral elves would be just damned high elves, and they would act like such. Could you say the forsaken don't share some human lore? Well of course they do! Yet they do have their own, they grew from that lore to what they are now, similar to how the etheral elves could do the same.
    I admit, I don't know how the ogres could grow... I'll need to think of that.

    And a disagree a bit. Besides blood elves and goblins, who are everywhere... you also have high elves, who are also everywhere only not part of the Alliance. By turning them into something different model wise but keeping their lore you'd have a race that still is everywhere, is playable, is in the Alliance and furthermore is attractive for they're not just refurbished blood elves.

    I already explained why I don't think high elves could be an Alliance candidate. They're just blue eyes blood elves. That's why etheral elves are high elves, only different looking and with some growth in their lore. I could say the same for ogres, though I do admit, there are some races with good lore too around, like naga, nerubian, etc, as you mentioned, you're right there.

    So overall, these are not new races, these are new models of high elves and ogres, races which already have lore and connection to both Azeroth and Outlands. The difference is that high elves would not be accepted, because giving them as they are would make some people say "why do the Alliance get a refurbished race and the Horde a new one?" while giving them to the Alliance and not giving any race to the Horde would make the Hordies say "why does one of our race turn neutral, what do we get in return?". Furthermore, it would make a lot of current blood elven players, who rolled blood elves only because high elves were not playable, roll high elves now.
    If you give the race with a different model, it's not a refurbished race, the Horde can get their own unique race too, and not all who wanted high elves would reroll etheral elves since it's not what they truly wanted, thus still keeping the balance.

    That said, I respect your opinion, just that this is how I see the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miralynn View Post
    Don't get me wrong... I love elves. I have loved elves since I first learned to play D&D lo these many years ago. But even I think the last thing WoW needs right now is more elves. Straight up ethereals would be fine, though.

    I do like the ogre idea, though. It would be a good lore method of overcoming the things that presently make ogres mechanically difficult to do.
    Fair enough, I thought I could fit the high elves with the etherals in there to make at least the people who love high elves for their lore happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Oh no, this sounds like Burning Crusade all over again. It's too far from normal fantasy. I HATED those weapons in TBC that simply had crystals hovering in mid air, it doesn't make sense for an axe or sword. For a magic staff it's kinda okay, but it was very much overdone in general.

    And now you want to implement that on a race? NO!
    I think most people were happy when WotLK went back to more normalized fantasy setting.
    That's subjective, I liked BC. Plus, I never said the crystals would float.

    Quote Originally Posted by jealouspirate View Post
    As an Alliance player I personally don't want High Elves playable, I think there are enough Elves running around.

    Regardless, I don't think we'll see ANY new races next expansion. Instead, we'll see new models for all the Vanilla races. Considering how much work that will take I doubt they'll have time for a new race, and it serves essentially the same purpose.
    It is possible you're right on new races, we'll see.
    That said, I don't want high elves either, mostly because they'd be the same as blood elves, if they give us current high elves... so I thought of an idea to make them different in looks while still keeping their lore. Because, let's face it, even without them being playable, they still get quite a few content around.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    Honestly, this is the first time I actually consider high/ethereal Elves for Alliance. The Ogre problem is not that much of a problem to me, but I sure would support them being smarter and joining the horde! Overall very neat concept! Try to draw it and send it to Blizz or post in forums!
    Thank you very much

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    The game lacks several things, but ELVES are not one of them...
    Two elven races are already TWO too many.. No need for adding a 3rd..
    What elves? I only see three troll races.

  2. #22
    I'd rather have just straight up Etherials :3

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovechile View Post
    I agree with the first one. Why in the hell are ELVES always the go-to for fantasy games. Oh, a human with pointy ears. That's exciting." /yawn
    aannnd. I sincerely hope you're correct on the second one. I can't even play my human paladin anymore, she just looks horrible.
    We need a new make up. Actual models are too old.

  4. #24
    Legendary! Arrashi's Avatar
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    After worgen i dont believe ANYTHING will bring shadow of gray to alliance. They were supposed to be "badass" monster race and they ended as what ? Rose sniffing loosers who are barely visible and hold no importance to alliance at all. Hell if alliance gotten race of human eating cosmic slus im sure they would made them look as lame and pansy as possible. Alliance dont need a new race to bring grayness to it, they need a little bit of good writing.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    After worgen i dont believe ANYTHING will bring shadow of gray to alliance. They were supposed to be "badass" monster race and they ended as what ? Rose sniffing loosers who are barely visible and hold no importance to alliance at all. Hell if alliance gotten race of human eating cosmic slus im sure they would made them look as lame and pansy as possible. Alliance dont need a new race to bring grayness to it, they need a little bit of good writing.
    Very very true. Dammit, the feral worgen in wolfheart had to be the right card for the alliance to balance the phisical seperiority /aggressiveness of the Horde. Varian made an impressive speech about it. But after that? Nothing. They never gained back their homeland, they appeare rarely and, even worse, there is no character of importance since the worgen starting experience. No generals, no diplomatics, no badguy pack warlords giving problems to the horde (except bloodfang, who disappeared after cata). They took a powerful kingdom (and so supposedly very popolous) which could take over a determinant role in the Alliance. A real shame.

  6. #26
    I just don't really see the point in fusing Elves and Ethereals when we could just add Ethereals?
    There's already plenty of playable Elves and no playable Ethereals, why add more Elves?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    lol I don't even know what this^ means o_O. Never though of fantasy and imagination as a leveled thing. It's not like you can have 30% real 70% fantasy. everything in this game is Ffantasy!
    Oh yes, so the next race that will be added will be flying pigs!

    Blizzard even mentioned that with WotLK they liked going back to a more conventional fantasy setting. The setting of Burning Crusade was so far from normal fantasy that you can compare it to flying spaceships in Lord of the Rings. It just doesn't fit.

    If anything, you could say that Burning Crusade went into the direction of science fiction too much. And that is not fantasy.

  8. #28
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipling View Post
    I'd rather have just straight up Etherials :3
    I knew someone would say that lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    After worgen i dont believe ANYTHING will bring shadow of gray to alliance. They were supposed to be "badass" monster race and they ended as what ? Rose sniffing loosers who are barely visible and hold no importance to alliance at all. Hell if alliance gotten race of human eating cosmic slugs im sure they would made them look as lame and pansy as possible. Alliance dont need a new race to bring grayness to it, they need a little bit of good writing.
    Ok, you're right there. The Alliance does need better writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I just don't really see the point in fusing Elves and Ethereals when we could just add Ethereals?
    There's already plenty of playable Elves and no playable Ethereals, why add more Elves?
    Because people have been asking for high elves for ages. Because of this, Alliance high elves get lore (all the Argent Crusade stuff on Alliance side, Dalaran Alliance side, the lore in Cataclysm with the Hinterlands high elves and the ones in Eastern Kingdoms, the hinting with the half-high elf in Burning Crusade, the whole alliance part in Island of Thunder, only led by Jaina etc) yet the high elves aren't a playable race so the people who play the actual playable races feel they are left out in favour of a race that's not even playable. I feel that too.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 05:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Oh yes, so the next race that will be added will be flying pigs!

    Blizzard even mentioned that with WotLK they liked going back to a more conventional fantasy setting. The setting of Burning Crusade was so far from normal fantasy that you can compare it to flying spaceships in Lord of the Rings. It just doesn't fit.

    If anything, you could say that Burning Crusade went into the direction of science fiction too much. And that is not fantasy.
    Is that why in WotLK you had flying spaceships for both the Horde and the Alliance? You know what I'm talking, the once in Icecrown. And since then they appeared everywhere.

    This is not about conventional fantasy, this is about managing to integrate what you add with what already existed. Some people didn't like BC because it went to spaceships that looked like spaceships and aliens came out of them. The Alliance and Horde flying ships are still flying ships, but because of their looks, they seem to fit in. Compare those with the Exodar and you'll see the problem. That's why the draenei didn't fit. They were aliens coming in their spaceship with retconed lore and crystal powers. Does this mean no alien would fit in the Warcraft lore?
    Orcs are aliens. Orcs fit. You know why? Because they didn't arrive in spaceships and still had some barbaric beliefs.

    So a race of etheral elves would fit as long as you don't make them ride spaceships and other stuff and make them too different. Look at banshees. Now imagine them with bandages in their hair and hands and feet made out of bandages. Would that be so alien? I wouldn't say so.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Oh yes, so the next race that will be added will be flying pigs!

    Blizzard even mentioned that with WotLK they liked going back to a more conventional fantasy setting. The setting of Burning Crusade was so far from normal fantasy that you can compare it to flying spaceships in Lord of the Rings. It just doesn't fit.

    If anything, you could say that Burning Crusade went into the direction of science fiction too much. And that is not fantasy.
    The line between fantasy and science fiction is blurry at best. Not everything fits squarely into one category or the other. I'm sure there's quite a few people who would be rather surprised to hear that Star Wars is fantasy. (There's swordfighters, wizards, magic, sword-fighting wizards...)

    Also, there's quite a few more fantasy options than just Tolkien. Try to broaden your horizon a bit. There is, however, no "normal" fantasy, as fantasy is by definition not normal.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    The line between fantasy and science fiction is blurry at best. Not everything fits squarely into one category or the other. I'm sure there's quite a few people who would be rather surprised to hear that Star Wars is fantasy. (There's swordfighters, wizards, magic, sword-fighting wizards...)

    Also, there's quite a few more fantasy options than just Tolkien. Try to broaden your horizon a bit. There is, however, no "normal" fantasy, as fantasy is by definition not normal.
    And frankly, with the pseudo-Victorian worgen, the steam punk gnomes and goblins and everything else in this game, it isn't like WoW puts a great deal of stock in thematic consistency.
    The Devil Wears Transmog
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  11. #31
    As an advocate of the High Elves and Ogres as the new playable races, my point of view could not miss in this thread.

    First of all I want to thank Snowraven for his excellent work and exposure: it has been very imaginative and innovative, and even plausible.

    However, how could it not be otherwise, I will always support the High Elves and Ogres as races for themselves, without any additions or mutations, nevertheless I am aware of the "problems" that their implementation as playable races will give rise, as has already been stated many times.

    If this was the only way for the two iconic races that are missing in the Alliance and Horde were added I would fully support it, though, I would opt for something more "traditional": hybrid races, i.e. half-ogres (ogre + orc) and half-elves (high elf + human). It's another idea.


  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    If this was the only way for the two iconic races that are missing in the Alliance and Horde were added I would fully support it, though, I would opt for something more "traditional": hybrid races, i.e. half-ogres (ogre + orc) and half-elves (high elf + human). It's another idea.
    Just to make completely new models..

  13. #33
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    As an advocate of the High Elves and Ogres as the new playable races, my point of view could not miss in this thread.

    First of all I want to thank Snowraven for his excellent work and exposure: it has been very imaginative and innovative, and even plausible.

    However, how could it not be otherwise, I will always support the High Elves and Ogres as races for themselves, without any additions or mutations, nevertheless I am aware of the "problems" that their implementation as playable races will give rise, as has already been stated many times.

    If this was the only way for the two iconic races that are missing in the Alliance and Horde were added I would fully support it, though, I would opt for something more "traditional": hybrid races, i.e. half-ogres (ogre + orc) and half-elves (high elf + human). It's another idea.
    Thank you too for appreciation.

    You know, half-ogres might work actually. Not sure about half-elves, I'll think a bit about them.

    Though, with half-ogres, what would their role in the Horde be? As someone asked earlier. What would they be known for in the Horde (I mean like goblins build stuff, orcs are on front lines, tauren with peaceful giants etc)

  14. #34
    But this doesn't give people High Elves, so they'll still be asking for them, and also upsets people who wants Ethereals
    It's a worst of both worlds situation, not a solution

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    Is that why in WotLK you had flying spaceships for both the Horde and the Alliance? You know what I'm talking, the once in Icecrown. And since then they appeared everywhere.

    This is not about conventional fantasy, this is about managing to integrate what you add with what already existed. Some people didn't like BC because it went to spaceships that looked like spaceships and aliens came out of them. The Alliance and Horde flying ships are still flying ships, but because of their looks, they seem to fit in. Compare those with the Exodar and you'll see the problem. That's why the draenei didn't fit. They were aliens coming in their spaceship with retconed lore and crystal powers. Does this mean no alien would fit in the Warcraft lore?
    Orcs are aliens. Orcs fit. You know why? Because they didn't arrive in spaceships and still had some barbaric beliefs.
    I agree with you for the most part. But your suggestion for Ethereal Elves and Crystal Ogres sounds too much like science fiction to me. It's in the category draenei alien, and not the category orc alien if you want to make that distinction. Then again, that is just my opinion of course.

  16. #36
    High Overlord Alfryd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    The game lacks several things, but ELVES are not one of them...
    Two elven races are already TWO too many.. No need for adding a 3rd..
    Really annoys me when people say stuff like this.

    Elves suffer from the band-wagon of hate simply because of the stereotype that is associated with Elves. You could get a race in a new fantasy genre that is called Elves, but look like pigs and have minimal intellect and I'd wager people would STILL hate on them simply because they're Elves.

    TL : DR, this senseless and baseless hatred of Elves makes no sense. ESPECIALLY when people ignore blatant other forms of multitude; you claim there are too many Elven races? I say there are too many Human races. We have Humans, Worgen and Forsaken; all based around human appearance and human lore. 3 v 2. And in conjunction, I'd wager that Blizzard are thinking of adding at least one more human race to the Alliance in the form of Kul'Tiras.

    I really do wish people would get over this hatred of Elves, in all fantasy. It makes me laugh even more because I read on the Skyrim forums something like 'oh my god, High Elves are so annoying! Dunmer are really interesting though, love how they're so different from boring humans and elves'.

    DUNMER ARE EFFING ELVES TOO ¬_¬.

  17. #37
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    But this doesn't give people High Elves, so they'll still be asking for them, and also upsets people who wants Ethereals
    It's a worst of both worlds situation, not a solution
    It's a compromise It gives people high elf lore with etheral-like looks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    I agree with you for the most part. But your suggestion for Ethereal Elves and Crystal Ogres sounds too much like science fiction to me. It's in the category draenei alien, and not the category orc alien if you want to make that distinction. Then again, that is just my opinion of course.
    Fair enough.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    Thank you too for appreciation.

    You know, half-ogres might work actually. Not sure about half-elves, I'll think a bit about them.

    Though, with half-ogres, what would their role in the Horde be? As someone asked earlier. What would they be known for in the Horde (I mean like goblins build stuff, orcs are on front lines, tauren with peaceful giants etc)
    The half-ogres and half-elves would come to take the place of the ogres and high elves respectively, as well as your Ethereal elves and Crystal ogres, i.e. they would come to correct the problems that "prevent" the ogres and high elves be playable, namely:



    Although frankly, I find your proposal more interesting than mine xD.


  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    The half-ogres and half-elves would come to take the place of the ogres and high elves respectively, as well as your Ethereal elves and Crystal ogres, i.e. they would come to correct the problems that "prevent" the ogres and high elves be playable, namely:



    Although frankly, I find your proposal more interesting than mine xD.
    Goooooooood.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    It's a compromise It gives people high elf lore with etheral-like looks.
    But it means people will still keep asking for High Elves, so we'll end up with four elf races...

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