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  1. #1

    Askmrrobot/icyveins/etc. Is destro optimization formula just wrong?

    Alright, there are altogether too many differing opinions on stat priority for destro.

    Asmrrobot : Hit > Crit > Haste > Mastery
    icyveins : Hit > (Crit = Haste = Mastery)
    wowreforge : doesnt look like its been updated lately, but it generally goes Hit > mastery (Crit = haste)

    I realize the optimization changes based on GSac or GSup, or aoe vs single target but today I hit a circumstance that seems to make little sense.

    I upgraded my weapon last night from the Sha touched staff to a 1h normal ToT sword / 496 ilvl offhand . Heres what ask mr robot shows as my optimized current equipment stats for destruction. (raid buffed)

    current optimized destro
    Total Score 164982 6977
    Average ILvl 513 0
    Intellect 22285 451
    Stamina 25890 0
    Mastery 52.91% 0.44%
    Spell Power 34321 496
    Spell Hit 15.01% -0.63%
    Spell Crit 25.45% 1.58%
    Spell Haste 13.66% -1.36%
    Proc (Haste) 7.30% 0.00%

    Now, since ive been tinkering with the idea of going back to affliction to see how well it holds up with my same equipment, just reforged, I flipped the spec choice to affliction, same equipment and had it optimize me.

    current optimized affliction
    Total Score 195795 16833
    Average ILvl 513 0
    Intellect 21050 -784
    Stamina 25890 0
    Mastery 83.37% 29.14%
    Spell Power 32963 -862
    Spell Hit 15.02% -0.62%
    Spell Crit 19.37% -4.50%
    Spell Haste 14.06% -0.96%
    Proc (Haste) 6.98% 0.00%

    Now, considering destros mastery, and what i would be trading off by reforging my destruction spec as askmrrobot suggests i should reforge (if i was affliction) I would lose only 4.5% of crit, .96% of haste, and 862 spell power in exchange for gaining almost 30% mastery. Does this sound correct to you? wouldnt 30% mastery be massively better then those? I've been playing a long time and I thought the general formula was 1% crit = 1% more dps. I know CB throws off that calculation a bit, but not by a factor of 6.

    Doesnt destro mastery increase damage done by incinerate immolate conflag CB and RoF which basically is everything we do? Why isnt mastery a priority?

  2. #2
    mastery does not affect the pet damage, thats why. Mastery

    But usually you do not reforge 100% like mr robot´s default stat values are telling you.
    You reforge for the specific encounter and what fits best there.

    Or you just dont care reforging every fight at all like i do, then you should go for a balanced reforge.
    I usually go for
    15,00-15,10% hit
    ~ 10% haste (the Immolate breakepoint)
    ~ 20% crit
    left over for mastery
    (unbuffed)

  3. #3
    this big mistake made here was ever using AMR, icy veins , and we can just throw noxxic in there. all the info on those sites is aimed at lfr running/alts.

  4. #4
    The title makes a good point. "Formula".. Let's think about that.
    There isn't any 1 formula for all situations. The reason you see different stat priorities on guides is because they are guiding you in different directions.

    I find that the only thing you can rely on is pure knowledge. You know what you're about to come up against and you should try to find out what's the best way to deal with that. Breakpoints? Mastery?

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire JV Chequer's Avatar
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    With RPPM Trinkets, it's probably:

    Single Target: Haste > Crit > Mastery
    AOE: Mastery > Crit > Haste

  6. #6
    Obviously depends on gear, but the main optimization to follow is:
    Single Target: Haste (to a breakpoint) > Crit = Mastery (a good balance) > leftover Haste
    AOE: Mastery >> Crit > Haste

    If you like affliction, a good build I play as is Aff for single target & Destro for AOE.
    Mastery>> everything. I personally reforge for a secondary stat of haste for aff & then crit for Destro, but gem all mastery. If you dont wanna bother with reforges (Im assuming you are raiding normal modes), it really wont matter and you can just balance it out with: Mastery >> Haste/Crit

    Oh and also on the topic of Talents. GoSac for AOE, GoSup for Single target (Observer or Fel Imp for movement fights).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravityx View Post
    Oh and also on the topic of Talents. GoSac for AOE, GoSup for Single target (Observer or Fel Imp for movement fights).
    GoSac for single target, GoSup for AOE. What's the point in having your filler buffed if all you're doing is spamming dots, eh?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by weakdots View Post
    this big mistake made here was ever using AMR, icy veins , and we can just throw noxxic in there. all the info on those sites is aimed at lfr running/alts.
    Are you saying AskMrRobot are providing bad gear optimizations with respect to your desired stat weights?

  9. #9
    High Overlord Bobthemongol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    GoSac for single target, GoSup for AOE. What's the point in having your filler buffed if all you're doing is spamming dots, eh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravityx
    I play as is Aff for single target & Destro for AOE.
    FnB aoe? as the incins gets buffed from sac.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobthekiller View Post
    FnB aoe? as the incins gets buffed from sac.
    I was talking affliction. But to my knowledge the tooltip of GoSac (for destruction) clearly states that FnB is not buffed by it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    GoSac for single target, GoSup for AOE. What's the point in having your filler buffed if all you're doing is spamming dots, eh?
    Shadowburn is increased by 15%, CB also gets a small buff. For fights like Primordius your CB having extra damage is big, adds dont matter much. On fights like Horridon or Tortos you are going to be casting SB a lot. It is a major difference rather than having your stupid pet attack one target.

    GoSac for AOE. And its still GoSup for single target, I mean sure there is probably a point in gear where Sac may be better eventually (Not too sure on this with Destro, I know that Aff has a point like this) but that is not now...at least for OP.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Bobthemongol's Avatar
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    Ignore the FnB post, it was before morning coffee

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    I was talking affliction. But to my knowledge the tooltip of GoSac (for destruction) clearly states that FnB is not buffed by it.
    Even if you were talking about affliction, thats still wrong. You always play GoSup for Aff (Observer for low movement, Fel Imp for AOE/High movement...unless you want to throw your observer on main target). And as I said above, there is a point where GoSac becomes king for Affliction (with heroic gear). Obviously you'd have to sim to see as it depends on your gear.

  14. #14
    there is not only Singletarget OR AoE

    GoSac gets better if there are more things to generate embers and less things that are actually worth damaging, for example Primordius (normal) you have 1 boss and lots of small adds to generate embers. so you keep up RoF for ember generation and spamm Chaos Bolts as filler, makes it much better than GoSup on this encounter.

    If you have to kill lots of things simultaneously GoSac wont help out much more than GoSup, since FnB is not buffed.

    Single target GoSup is better (Iron Quon normal for instance)

    GoSup = 1 or lots of targets
    GoSac = between

    GoSac damage scales with your skill too (less inactive time and more Havoc CB´s affect GoSac a lot more than the Pet you stick to a target for the whole fight)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Eierdotter View Post
    there is not only Singletarget OR AoE

    GoSac gets better if there are more things to generate embers and less things that are actually worth damaging, for example Primordius (normal) you have 1 boss and lots of small adds to generate embers. so you keep up RoF for ember generation and spamm Chaos Bolts as filler, makes it much better than GoSup on this encounter.

    If you have to kill lots of things simultaneously GoSac wont help out much more than GoSup, since FnB is not buffed.

    Single target GoSup is better (Iron Quon normal for instance)

    GoSup = 1 or lots of targets
    GoSac = between

    GoSac damage scales with your skill too (less inactive time and more Havoc CB´s affect GoSac a lot more than the Pet you stick to a target for the whole fight)
    As I said above SHADOWBURN gets a 15% buff from GoSac. If you know how to play Destro you will be spamming SB a lot on any multi-target fight. When you Havoc & triple-SB/CB, that includes the buff. I mean sure if you suck and miss the SB casts and Havocs, then yeah maybe GoSup is better, lol. Sorry Im trying to find a non-douchey way to say "You're wrong."

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravityx View Post
    As I said above SHADOWBURN gets a 15% buff from GoSac. If you know how to play Destro you will be spamming SB a lot on any multi-target fight. When you Havoc & triple-SB/CB, that includes the buff. I mean sure if you suck and miss the SB casts and Havocs, then yeah maybe GoSup is better, lol. Sorry Im trying to find a non-douchey way to say "You're wrong."
    Hmm,... I'm not.

    maybe i was not clear about my statement, but again a bit simplified for you:
    If you use your embers for FnB to AoE GoSup is the way to go.
    If you use your embers for Havoc CB and SB to finish off single adds in AoE, GoSac is the way to go.

    And it seems you like GoSac as much as I do. (I play 9/12 GoSac in ToT, just because i like to sac the pet after the pull, so the healers scream "what was that i did not even see the health drop!")

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Are you saying AskMrRobot are providing bad gear optimizations with respect to your desired stat weights?
    This is unrelated to the discussion in this thread, but FWIW, AMR does provide bad gear optimizations given my desired stat weights. Here's my character:

    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/whisperwind/rvst

    I load it up and specify custom weights that are merely the defaults with Mastery and Haste swapped. 2.82 Haste, 2.57 Mastery, everything else default. In addition, I exclude all Ra-den items. The BiS 'score' that it gives me is 254590. If I manually lock in Hood of the Crimson Wake Heroic Thunderforged (replacing Flamecaster's H TF), the score it gives me is 255300. Checking the actual stats, the Crimson Wake profile gives me more Mastery and Haste at the cost of Crit, and that's the only change.
    Last edited by Rustjive; 2013-04-22 at 09:41 PM.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    This is unrelated to the discussion in this thread, but FWIW, AMR does provide bad gear optimizations given my desired stat weights. Here's my character:

    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/whisperwind/rvst

    I load it up and specify custom weights that are merely the defaults with Mastery and Haste swapped. 2.82 Haste, 2.57 Mastery, everything else default. The BiS 'score' that it gives me is 254590. If I manually lock in Hood of the Crimson Wake Heroic Thunderforged, the score it gives me is 255300. Checking the actual stats, the Crimson Wake profile gives me more Mastery and Haste at the cost of Crit, and that's the only change.
    I think it is set to ignore thunderforged items by default (since they are very RNG). Should be able to uncheck that in the options. I could be wrong though.

    Ultimately, it's just a tool, and it's only as valid as the stat weights you give it. If you like your stat weights, it's the best tool out there for gear comparison.

    If you find a bug, then you should post it to their forums so they can fix it. They are very responsive. Also, you can ask more about their stat weights there.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Eierdotter View Post
    Hmm,... I'm not.

    And it seems you like GoSac as much as I do. (I play 9/12 GoSac in ToT, just because i like to sac the pet after the pull, so the healers scream "what was that i did not even see the health drop!")
    You might be a warlock IRL.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by weakdots View Post
    this big mistake made here was ever using AMR, icy veins , and we can just throw noxxic in there. all the info on those sites is aimed at lfr running/alts.
    1+1=2 no matter what calculator you're using.

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