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  1. #21
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daewyn View Post
    Edit: Of course you can argue that 1k dps is neligible (and it actually is most of time), but with that logic you could also leave one slot of your gear ungemmed because it simply doesn't matter. The utility might actually make a wipe to a kill once in a blue moon, but same could be said about the small dps loss for not using them optimally.
    In which case, it goes both ways.

    Also, my images don't typically hit for that much. Idk where you guys keep finding 300k+ for Images unless you use them during proccs (and when I get my proccs to align, I'm gonna worry about getting a 1m+ Combustion rather than a 300k Images )

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  2. #22
    Personally I find my procs last a fair bit longer than it takes to queue several Pyroblasts and a Combustion but I guess if you're not paying attention it might be hard to fit more than six instant spellcasts into a 20 second buff

  3. #23
    An interesting side point as more news trickles out of the PTR,

    Heroic Scenarios really allow MIs to shine.

    With the mobs hitting hard and the scenarios, often times, not having a tank (or even a healer) present, players are forced to really use many of the tools they have access to as a spec or a class, specifically the tools that they don't normally use in PvE. Or it forces players to use many tools they do have for other purposes, e.g. actually using MI for threat management.

    I cannot count anymore how many times MIs have saved my a$s in H Scenarios on the PTR, or just given me enough breathing room to get that last burst out to kill the boss just in time for the bonus timer.


    H Scenarios are a big win that is coming with 5.3 in general, imho.
    However, I don't think its a big enough "game changer" to allow people to start seeing the value on "utility other than crazy dps" in PvE. With raiding (or more specifically, Heroic Raiding) still holding the PvE crown, people will no doubt still analyze and interpret their class and spells based on the baseline of "how much DPS does it increase", which, while perfectly valid given the current climate, is unfortunate given the existence of Challenge Modes and now, H Scenarios.


    Sure, DPS classes are meant to DPS. However, there is nothing wrong with bringing something else too.


    Challenge modes, and now H Scenarios, allow us to see specs and classes and analyze weaknesses and flaws more succinctly. For example, the gap in utility between say Arcane and Frost is so painfully evident in H Scenarios that its really hard to make a case for anyone to pick Arcane over any of the other mage spec. Now true, H Scenarios actually don't mean much (they are just like 5 mans as far as importance goes), but still, the more clearly we can see descrepancies between specs, the easier it will be to articulat and fix it.


    Overall though, MIs could use some love I think.

    Maybe an Arcane spec only ability that lets you (on command) switch position with your MIs when needed? It would be a harken to the original version of MIs that came out back in Wotlk beta, the ones that would randomly switch you with an image. Same thing, but this time, give the ability to switch with an image to the mage itself, allowing him to proactively/retroactively control it.


    But on the whole, MIs kick a lot of ass.

  4. #24
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Personally I find my procs last a fair bit longer than it takes to queue several Pyroblasts and a Combustion but I guess if you're not paying attention it might be hard to fit more than six instant spellcasts into a 20 second buff
    10s buff.

    Both the Legendary and Cha-Ye (my best proccs), as well as my Engineering Tinker, are 10s. LotC and JS (my much weaker proccs) are 20 and 15, respectively, but okay.

    Also, if you have all your 20s proccs perfectly align on every Alter Time/PoM (not to mention some of which last much longer than others), you have some otherworldly luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    An interesting side point as more news trickles out of the PTR,

    Heroic Scenarios really allow MIs to shine.

    With the mobs hitting hard and the scenarios, often times, not having a tank (or even a healer) present, players are forced to really use many of the tools they have access to as a spec or a class, specifically the tools that they don't normally use in PvE. Or it forces players to use many tools they do have for other purposes, e.g. actually using MI for threat management.

    I cannot count anymore how many times MIs have saved my a$s in H Scenarios on the PTR, or just given me enough breathing room to get that last burst out to kill the boss just in time for the bonus timer.


    H Scenarios are a big win that is coming with 5.3 in general, imho.
    However, I don't think its a big enough "game changer" to allow people to start seeing the value on "utility other than crazy dps" in PvE. With raiding (or more specifically, Heroic Raiding) still holding the PvE crown, people will no doubt still analyze and interpret their class and spells based on the baseline of "how much DPS does it increase", which, while perfectly valid given the current climate, is unfortunate given the existence of Challenge Modes and now, H Scenarios.


    Sure, DPS classes are meant to DPS. However, there is nothing wrong with bringing something else too.


    Challenge modes, and now H Scenarios, allow us to see specs and classes and analyze weaknesses and flaws more succinctly. For example, the gap in utility between say Arcane and Frost is so painfully evident in H Scenarios that its really hard to make a case for anyone to pick Arcane over any of the other mage spec. Now true, H Scenarios actually don't mean much (they are just like 5 mans as far as importance goes), but still, the more clearly we can see descrepancies between specs, the easier it will be to articulat and fix it.


    Overall though, MIs could use some love I think.

    Maybe an Arcane spec only ability that lets you (on command) switch position with your MIs when needed? It would be a harken to the original version of MIs that came out back in Wotlk beta, the ones that would randomly switch you with an image. Same thing, but this time, give the ability to switch with an image to the mage itself, allowing him to proactively/retroactively control it.


    But on the whole, MIs kick a lot of ass.
    Oh I wouldn't deny that they kick ass overall in their use, similar to Alter Time, I just feel that offensively, it's really weak. If it didn't use a global, it'd be miles ahead, but it does waste a global, and on top of that, it's significantly weaker than any other offensive cooldown (dare I say, in the game), of which, there's only a small handful that actually do use a global.

    The fact that they use a global kinda begs them to deal double damage of what they're doing now, if, MI, is intended to be a THREE minute offensive CD.

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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    if, MI, is intended to be a THREE minute offensive CD.
    And this is the core of the point.

    Is MI intended to be an offensive CD, or is the damage just in there as a very secondary bonus?

    Now sure, the DPET for MIs would be v good, but it all comes down to how you are seeing the spell.


    If you see it as an offensive, DPS ability (which, if you are purely a raider is all you can rationally see it as, since, as we know, barring epic fails, threat means little in raids now), then yes, they should perhaps do more significant damage.

    However, if you don't actually see MI as a DPS ability, but instead as a threat management/pvp obfuscation ability, then it is fine. Now sure, if you do choose to see MIs similar to this latter option, then MIs will be pretty useless in raids for you, since they do pretty low DPS. However, is that such a bad thing? Many mage spells don't really have a function in raids anymore (e.g. decurses, sheeps, heck even mage tables), that doesn't necessarily make them so bad.


    So yea.. in the end, its all about what you see when you see MI. Do you see a DPS ability? Or a threat utility? Or just something that adds a bit of style to the class? Or maybe something else?
    For me, MIs aren't a DPS ability, but one that has different utility uses depending on the situation.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Do you see a DPS ability? Or a threat utility?
    And this is why WoW is a good game. Players have the choice to be total DPS snobs, or to take a more tactful, utility approach to their game. I guarantee the Warlock forums had many discussions about the use of a Soul Shard to drop threat back when Soulshatter cost a shard and how much DPS it cost to do that.

    People need to open their minds a bit. It's perfectly ok to prefer to use an ability for its utility if the DPS it adds is negligible.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post
    And this is why WoW is a good game. Players have the choice to be total DPS snobs, or to take a more tactful, utility approach to their game.
    While the sentiment is admirable, this isn't actually correct.

    You cannot "take a more tactful, utility approach" to raids. Don't get me wrong, as a raider, all you can possibly care about is the DPS. Raids and "high end PvE" is designed, at its core, with this flaw.
    Pretty much everything else in raiding is extremely secondary and in some cases, completely irrelevant.
    If WoW was a good game, then this would not be the case.

    A simple example to illustrate the point?


    As a raid leader you almost exclusively ask yourself the following question: "Who should I bring today that brings the most DPS".


    If WoW was, in fact, a 'good game', then raid leaders would have to, on many occasions, ask questions or face decision points such as "Class A is bringing a lot of DPS, but Class B has tons of utility (but less DPS), which one should I choose? Touch choices". But raid leaders of today do not need to consider this. "Utility" having been homogenized post-BC, means that DPS is the only real metric to select from.


    That just is the sad truth about raiding. Now sure, if say raiding wasn't the 'premiere' form of PvE, and say instead something along the lines of H Scenarios or Challenge modes was actually the place in teh game where you got "the best gear", then the concept of real utility (not just who brings buff X) will come into play.

    Until that point however, its gg to utility, DPS is king.

    Lucky for me, I'm ZOMGdps. :P

  8. #28
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post
    And this is why WoW is a good game. Players have the choice to be total DPS snobs, or to take a more tactful, utility approach to their game. I guarantee the Warlock forums had many discussions about the use of a Soul Shard to drop threat back when Soulshatter cost a shard and how much DPS it cost to do that.

    People need to open their minds a bit. It's perfectly ok to prefer to use an ability for its utility if the DPS it adds is negligible.
    And look at my head being bitten off by all the earlier posters for asking a simple question

    I don't see it as a DPS ability by any means, especially because of how weak it is and how helpful it can be in specific instances.

    I'll cry when we wipe to a boss under 1m, which will never happen. We always die too early

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 05:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    As a raid leader you almost exclusively ask yourself the following question: "Who should I bring today that brings the most DPS".
    No, that's what a 25m raid leader asks, where DPS can sit on Horridon without a second thought.

    10m is a bit different. We have to make sure our comps bring all the buffs we want and the utility we want (such as battle rezzes, raid cooldowns, externals, etc). DPS is quite important, but not the end all result.

    If you're actually running a 10m and you see it PURELY as "best DPS possible", I'm curious how you get through content. If 25, then that easily explains your PoV.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 05:27 PM ----------

    (Inc OT post)

    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    If WoW was, in fact, a 'good game', then raid leaders would have to, on many occasions, ask questions or face decision points such as "Class A is bringing a lot of DPS, but Class B has tons of utility (but less DPS), which one should I choose? Touch choices". But raid leaders of today do not need to consider this. "Utility" having been homogenized post-BC, means that DPS is the only real metric to select from.
    Utility in Mages is...?


    Warlocks: Do better DPS overall (unless the Fire Mage is super lucky) bring tons of raid-utility for a Pure (Gateway, Lockrocks, Battlerez), have plenty of self-healing and damage reduction to reduce healing needed. On top of that, they have great mobility as they can cast every spell on the go at a speed penalty (which they can recover using Burning Rush in exchange for health).

    Mages: Fire has the POTENTIAL to do better DPS than Locks purely because it scales so incredible, but usually end up short or way under; No raid utility (unless you have 0 Shamans or other Mages). Squishiest class in the game on Health, Armor, no Damage Reduction besides Flameglow (which is not only an AWFUL reduction ability for raiding, but replaces your really good defensive cooldowns), are among the worst mobile DPS to boot.

    But y'know, yeah. Homogenization is great when it's this imbalanced
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-04-18 at 09:27 PM.

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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    10m is a bit different. We have to make sure our comps bring all the buffs we want and the utility we want (such as battle rezzes, raid cooldowns, externals, etc). DPS is quite important, but not the end all result.
    No no, you are quite right. I just group all these things up in the "brings buff X" category that I mentioned above.

    The basic point being that ensuring you have rezzes, the full compliment of buffs etc are not 'decisions' per se, they are just a "binary checklist" as I like to call it. You either have it or not.


    What I was talking about was having real decision points. Where you are choosing to sit player A with higher DPS since you need player B's kiting skills, or offtanking ability or CC abilities. Where the choice to make is actually hard, rather than just 'obvious' since you are crossing a checklist.


    The core of the point lies in the execution. Until the day where we have a boss that you can beat in multiple ways (e.g. you can beat him with straight up DPS or you can beat him with heavy CC and no tanks or you can beat him with some other 'out of the box' strat), until the day such an encounter exists in WoW (none does or has so far), the vision of the game Skygoneblue sees will keep on just being a dream.


    WoW is solidly built upon the 'holy-trinity' of design. We cannot escape it.

  10. #30
    I actually feel like all that would be needed to bring that back to the fore would be tighter tuning, my raid group do shuffle a couple of people around (we are a 10 man raid team with 12 raiders) on progression fights the first time we run them explicitly for class-related cooldowns and the like
    Mages with Ice Block that Druids can also pick up with Symbiosis were incredibly useful for soaking Static Shock the first couple of times we did Lei Shen for example

    Problem is that after one kill this all becomes unnecessary because we've earned better gear and the mechanics are a little more forgiving.

  11. #31
    Using an Iron Qon LOG I find that MI's are a 2k EDPS.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/0pc62...5&e=584#Vykina

    Take a look for yourself. So yes it is really worth going for MI's offensive. Sure its good to have as a defensive CD aswell but you can't argue with a 2k dps increase (effective at that). And if that aint enough to convince you I don't know what is.

    EDIT: And he only has 75 sec's uptime on them so thats 3 casts where he only got to use them for 2.5 of its total duration meaning that its DPET is alot more than 300k for Vykina if he would have gotten the full 90 seconds out of them.

    Ive calculated this using pretty simple math. If you wan't to go deeper into it by all means do so but just from the information from logs its a clear advantage to use them for a dps increase.
    Last edited by Dangra; 2013-04-18 at 09:51 PM.

  12. #32
    MI is about the highest damage for a single GCD you can put out in most instances.

    If combustion is on CD, MI is worth casting as soon as it's available, barring you needing the aggro drop somewhere in the fight. If you're at a boss percentage where you'll only get one more use and you're skirting enrage, saving it to gain a couple seconds extra into enrage or dump threat is worth doing, ie. heroic horridon where many kills were 20+ seconds into the boss berserk since he doesn't 1-shot the raid immediately and the room is huge.

    MI is also amazing if you're forced to move, since it puts out more damage by far than any other instant cast non-proc ability.

  13. #33
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    If combustion is on CD, MI is worth casting as soon as it's available, barring you needing the aggro drop somewhere in the fight. If you're at a boss percentage where you'll only get one more use and you're skirting enrage, saving it to gain a couple seconds extra into enrage or dump threat is worth doing, ie. heroic horridon where many kills were 20+ seconds into the boss berserk since he doesn't 1-shot the raid immediately and the room is huge.

    MI is also amazing if you're forced to move, since it puts out more damage by far than any other instant cast non-proc ability.
    The instance about H Horridon is why I keep it except on pre-pull, as well as in case I need to drop aggro for a bit (e.g., tank death or something else that sucks, or adds on horridon are <snip>ing my face).

    I'm gonna try to use it a bit more when mobile (as obviously, it owns Scorch hardcore). If immobile, not really.

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  14. #34
    It seems to me you are just shrugging off sound, solid arguments FOR mi just because you want to be right and just agree with anyone who agrees with you. MI is a great damage CD, and while it has it's utility, it is limited and the chances of you actually ever needing to save it for one of those moments is slim, I can't think of a time when I thought to myself "oh gee if I had just not used my MI earlier that wouldn't have been a wipe" but if you are running into these issues often and need to use MI for utility go right ahead, I checked your armory, you've been clearing the instance so this clearly isn't a make or break choice for your raid group.

    Tl;dr it is worth it but do whatever you want, it really doesn't matter

  15. #35
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Like I said before.. I already did this whole thread about MI, but it appears that some people just want to be right.


    tldr; if you're min/maxing.. use MI on cooldown with your buffs. it IS a dps increase . (if anyone ever does SimC results. you'll know that MI is the single best damage per execute time spell in the game.) If you need it to save a wipe because you're bad, then do that.
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  16. #36
    Just used my images while doing LFR.... they are averaging at around 500-700k per cast....

  17. #37
    I think it depends a little on the fight. Not that I have any numbers or anything, but I always feel that in a standstill situation, Mirror Images ruin my ignite.

    Like others above, I often use it instead of a scorch. But on most fights, I simply save my mirrors for aggro cases. When a tank dies, they always come after me first, popping Mirrors buys the raid some time to let the tank get a rebirth and taunt from us.

  18. #38
    Wow, this entire thread pretty much sums up why pretty much any self respecting mage would stay as far away from the cesspool that is the mage section of mmo-champ.

    Imnick and space are the only people who seem to get it. Everyone else is just playing ignorant noob destined to be stuck on normals I think.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by youwantthis View Post
    Wow, this entire thread pretty much sums up why pretty much any self respecting mage would stay as far away from the cesspool that is the mage section of mmo-champ.

    Imnick and space are the only people who seem to get it. Everyone else is just playing ignorant noob destined to be stuck on normals I think.
    Come on now, is that really necessary? Let's play nice ok?

  20. #40
    Herald of the Titans Syridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Thank you. That's the answer I was looking for

    I'll continue to use it on pre-pull and to drop aggro/to invis and mass
    You made this thread so that eventually, someone would reaffirm what you wanted to hear? Nice.

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