Thread: Arms in raids.

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Not true. It's more like 500, and depends GREATLY on weapons.
    Not true. It's more like 510-515 ilvl check this: http://simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T14H.html

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbad View Post
    Not true. It's more like 510-515 ilvl check this: http://simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T14H.html
    First off, you're using base sim-c numbers and numbers which havn't been updated for the newest sim-c version. Next you're using T14-H gear, and different items change DPS greatly. Finally, you're using sim-c to compare DPS.

    Simcraft, as a tool, has it's strength in being able to compare DPS increases/decreases relative to changes in spec, glyph, or gear, and for determining stat weights. Using them as a DPS guideline is about as accurate as using noxxic for your rotation. It can give you a general idea, but it isn't accurate enough to make claims based solely on it's own weight.

    Oh, and one last thing. According to your line of reasoning, Arms would have been the superior spec all last tier. In reality, it wasn't.

    So yes, up until around 500 ilvl and if you have a good 2h weapon and no good OH, Arms is fine. After that, the massive scaling of fury simply pulls it quite far ahead.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-04-19 at 02:10 PM.

  3. #23
    You do realize arms got changed massively in 5.2??? If it had those changes at the start of MoP it might have been the superior spec last tier....

    Simcraft isn't perfect it doesn't use the 4pT14 bonus properly anymore with the actionlist focused on t15 but it supports my personal experience that arms keeps up really well with fury. Your 500 ilvl is just way too low imo its more like 510 or even higher, weapons having a bigger impact then ilvl at least for arms. If you have some better reasoning behind it then just saying "not true" Im happy to discuss it. Also with the dps I rank as arms 519 ilvl I would still rank pretty decent as fury as well if it would be as "bad" as you say it is I doubt that would be possible.

  4. #24
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    My point was you are using specs from last tier to try and say why Arms is good this tier. If you rank as arms its partially because so few people play arms. Why do you think I had so many #1s last tier lol.

  5. #25
    It's ridiculously easy to rank as arms, I rank on every fight even if I mess up a bit. But for example my 212k on Jinrokh or 144k on Magaera(no cleave nonsense) would still rank pretty decent if I would be fury. The simcraft I linked uses the current specs just using it for the 509 ilvl (or slightly lower) that it has, it might not be 100% accurate but should be close enough imo.

  6. #26
    Easy to rank as arms because no one plays it....I could go Arms and get all R1's but its pointless playing a useless spec. (And because playing for WoL ranks is dumb).

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnermighty View Post
    Easy to rank as arms because no one plays it....I could go Arms and get all R1's but its pointless playing a useless spec. (And because playing for WoL ranks is dumb).
    It's easy to rank as fury if you happen to be in the world number 4 guild as you are btw - purely on efficency of kills, combined with being a step ahead of even highly progressed guilds on the gear curve. and if wol ranking are so dumb how come BL after the world first races etc are over start to share their logs, if not so that people in the guild can epeen a little bit?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaenus View Post
    It's easy to rank as fury if you happen to be in the world number 4 guild as you are btw - purely on efficency of kills, combined with being a step ahead of even highly progressed guilds on the gear curve. and if wol ranking are so dumb how come BL after the world first races etc are over start to share their logs, if not so that people in the guild can epeen a little bit?
    OH SNAP SINNER GOT TOLD.

    Actually having efficient kills can be a downside as far as ranks go. Faster burn phases, faster kills, less uptime on AOE, less execute time, etc. You may not get in a 2nd CD phase, or for a warrior, get optimal execute time. All contribute to making ranking more difficult. Upsides are gear, and you can assign people to "cheese" to rank.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    OH SNAP SINNER GOT TOLD.

    Actually having efficient kills can be a downside as far as ranks go. Faster burn phases, faster kills, less uptime on AOE, less execute time, etc. You may not get in a 2nd CD phase, or for a warrior, get optimal execute time. All contribute to making ranking more difficult. Upsides are gear, and you can assign people to "cheese" to rank.
    All to a element true, although obviously most fights have a sweet spot as far as optimal time for any kill for max dps, too long or at a certain point of fast kills will negatively impact that. the swingside is that faster kills = greater uptime during the encounter of flasks/hero etc and at that sweet spot optimal usage of cds etc. So not exactly a black and white efficiency is good/bad situ.

    As i mentioned in the thread earlier though, i kind of get irked a little by the playing a useless spec comments, it only applies in the case real bleeding edge guilds which for the majority of the people who raid at a 'decent level' isn't the case, if you can contribute and perform at a solid level then for that level of guild its enough, sure some will say oh but you could do 20% more by changing spec, the answer would be yes and at 20% higher efficiency you'd also be able to raid in a more progressed/hardcore guild, it comes to a question of what level and pace of progression the individual is happy with i guess.

    Or we can all go roll Lock/Mage/Rogue, a change to which would yield a much greater dps increase to yourv raid than simply switching between arms/fury will do currently

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaenus View Post
    All to a element true, although obviously most fights have a sweet spot as far as optimal time for any kill for max dps, too long or at a certain point of fast kills will negatively impact that. the swingside is that faster kills = greater uptime during the encounter of flasks/hero etc and at that sweet spot optimal usage of cds etc. So not exactly a black and white efficiency is good/bad situ.

    As i mentioned in the thread earlier though, i kind of get irked a little by the playing a useless spec comments, it only applies in the case real bleeding edge guilds which for the majority of the people who raid at a 'decent level' isn't the case, if you can contribute and perform at a solid level then for that level of guild its enough, sure some will say oh but you could do 20% more by changing spec, the answer would be yes and at 20% higher efficiency you'd also be able to raid in a more progressed/hardcore guild, it comes to a question of what level and pace of progression the individual is happy with i guess.

    Or we can all go roll Lock/Mage/Rogue, a change to which would yield a much greater dps increase to yourv raid than simply switching between arms/fury will do currently
    The last part is very true. I suppose one thing people forget to factor in often is how greatly skill factors in. A top arms player will probably beat most fury players. But given equal skill and gear, fury will win.

    Another thing to consider is that both arms/fury bring the same utility so when chosing the spec between the two it's more about DPS and enjoyment than utility. Whereas when playing a rogue/mage instead of a warrior, your raid utility changes, as does gearing/tier etc, so many more factors.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-04-20 at 02:13 AM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbad View Post
    You do realize arms got changed massively in 5.2??? If it had those changes at the start of MoP it might have been the superior spec last tier....

    Simcraft isn't perfect it doesn't use the 4pT14 bonus properly anymore with the actionlist focused on t15 but it supports my personal experience that arms keeps up really well with fury. Your 500 ilvl is just way too low imo its more like 510 or even higher, weapons having a bigger impact then ilvl at least for arms. If you have some better reasoning behind it then just saying "not true" Im happy to discuss it. Also with the dps I rank as arms 519 ilvl I would still rank pretty decent as fury as well if it would be as "bad" as you say it is I doubt that would be possible.
    I can go arms and get rank 1 on all figts next raid as it is a spec that almost no serious raider plays atm. Also I'm in top 20 ranks on most fights so I know what I'm talking about. You can argue all you want but arms is just a bad spec in pve atm (also simcraft is shit, its a nice guidline tool but that is all, dont rely to much on it)

    And yes fury would pull ahead most certanly around 500 ilvl, even a bit before that.

    P.S. I am someone that always enjoyed playing arms and I would like to again (but it is just crap atm and not nearly as interesting as it was before)

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingol View Post
    I can go arms and get rank 1 on all figts next raid as it is a spec that almost no serious raider plays atm.
    I feel like I've read that before ^^

  13. #33
    We have two warriors in our 25 man, one arms and one fury. Currently we are 5/13 heroic, skipped council. Every fight the arms ranks, simply due to the fact that no one plays the spec. He also managed to rank on Jin'rokh after dying to first ionization due to a range not moving. Overall, he is generally last on dps, but is arms due to having a 522 weapon, and not having two 522 1h's.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingol View Post
    I can go arms and get rank 1 on all figts next raid as it is a spec that almost no serious raider plays atm. Also I'm in top 20 ranks on most fights so I know what I'm talking about. You can argue all you want but arms is just a bad spec in pve atm (also simcraft is shit, its a nice guidline tool but that is all, don't rely to much on it)

    And yes fury would pull ahead most certainly around 500 ilvl, even a bit before that.

    P.S. I am someone that always enjoyed playing arms and I would like to again (but it is just crap atm and not nearly as interesting as it was before)
    5th On Iron Qon Normal - 139k, 16.04.13
    9th on Ji-Kun Normal -226k, 31.03.13
    15th on - Council of Elders Normal - 180k -17.04.13
    25th on -Horridon Heroic -268k -17.04.13
    25th on -Magaera Normal - 152k-14.04.13
    40th on- Durumu Normal - 153k - 16.04.13
    49th on - Tortos Heroic -277k -17.04.13
    53rd on Tortos Normal - 249k - 7.04.13
    60th on Jin Rok Heroic -213k - 17.04.13
    114th Lei shen normal -153k -16.04.13

    Cant find any rankings for you on either Twins or on Dark Animus Or Primordius inside the top 150 for your spec.

    3/12 is not most fights
    3/12 on normal mode whilst having two heroic weapons is not anything to shout out over, especially as two of those came within the last 4 days.


    Just for amusement value i placed your fury numbers into the arms rankings and here is how you'd rank


    1st on Horridon Heroic
    4th on Jin rok Heroic
    7th on Tortos Heroic
    9th Council of elders Normal
    35th on Magaera Normal
    1st Ji-Kun Normal
    1st Durumu Normal
    1st on Iron Qon
    7th on Lei Shen Normal
    9th on Tortos Normal.

    On the vast majority of cases that i checked you also have a significant weapon advantages over those arms warrs ranking above you on a direct comparison with your fury numbers. so hardly OMG earthshaking impressive.

    Short note, save the boasting for when the actual stats back up what your saying. Or if you truly believe you can rank 1st as arms on every fight then you'd currently be performing better on 8/12 fights than you are as fury

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingol View Post
    I can go arms and get rank 1 on all figts next raid as it is a spec that almost no serious raider plays atm. Also I'm in top 20 ranks on most fights so I know what I'm talking about. You can argue all you want but arms is just a bad spec in pve atm (also simcraft is shit, its a nice guidline tool but that is all, dont rely to much on it)

    And yes fury would pull ahead most certanly around 500 ilvl, even a bit before that.

    P.S. I am someone that always enjoyed playing arms and I would like to again (but it is just crap atm and not nearly as interesting as it was before)
    Checking over all your ranked logs as fury, well all i can say is your talking out your ass mate, you currently rank top 20 as fury on 3 fights - 2 of them normal modes - with you having two heroic one handers whilst the majority of people around and above you have either tf normal ones or just normal.

    you actually dont rank at all currently (top 150) on more fights than you rank in the top 20, so your statement about "Also I'm in top 20 ranks on most fights so I know what I'm talking about" is wrong. Most does not

    As for stating you could spec arms and get rank 1 on ALL fights this tier, well sadly your so laughably wrong it made me smile, your current smf parses with two hc weapons would rank you number 1 as arms on 3 normal modes and one of the three hc modes youve killed so far.

    Rule to follow mate is don't talk the talk unless your able to walk the walk

  16. #36
    Hello all i am i am just wondering if Arms would benefit me more then fury, My toon http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...e/Miyth/simple . Currently i am using LFR shin'ka execution of dominion X2 one of which has the 500+ stat gem, because as of yet no better weapons have dropped. So my question is would it benefit my DPS to go arms with the Shin'ka/500+stat gem?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaralis View Post
    Hello all i am i am just wondering if Arms would benefit me more then fury, My toon http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...e/Miyth/simple . Currently i am using LFR shin'ka execution of dominion X2 one of which has the 500+ stat gem, because as of yet no better weapons have dropped. So my question is would it benefit my DPS to go arms with the Shin'ka/500+stat gem?
    pretty much in the same boat as this guy, except I got a second Normal mode Shin'ka when trying to get the 1h sword, so I have 2 496 shin'kas. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Tyler/advanced Was considering going arms. I'm being raced beat by our 2h Fdk, (we are usually 1 and 2, or 2 and 3 in our 10 man team) and want any advantage I can get over him :P

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