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  1. #1
    Brewmaster Klingers's Avatar
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    Alliance, the punching bag

    I've been seeing a lot of articles distilling the Alliance community's sentiment on Wowinsider the last few days, and I thought I'd expand on one of my replies there to make a few points I think are worth making. Do you think the Alliance gets the short end of the stick in terms of "wins" and heroism?

    I think that the Alliance needs and deserves a major victory in their own right. Just one single "Take that, Horde!" moment we see in game rather than read about.

    I'm not talking about the seige of Orgrimmar, which I predict will basically will boil down to doing VolJin's dirty work by sea, handing the city right back to him, giving him a "she'll be right!" wave and sailing off into the sunset.

    I think it's fair to say that although gameplay-wise it was necessary to balance zones, but in Cataclysm the Alliance was truly a punching bag. The Horde got all the victories, the Horde got the juiciest lore and the Horde's most front-and-centre character was made the neutral hero without losing his factional loyalties. The horde even got the second half of the Worgen starting storyline.

    What we need is a time-appropriate version of Dalaran floating in the sky over Theramore's old location... Or a repopulated Gilneas for the Worgen. Maybe some new quest content in the Arathi Highlands that has Stromgarde reclaimed for the Alliance and Thoradin's wall fortified as a new beach-head against the Forsaken, or.... Heaven bloody forbid... Varian ramming a sword through Garrosh's chest.

    This shouldn't be a colaboration between the Horde Rebels and the Alliance. This shouldn't be the Alliance being subservient to the Horde. This should be the Alliance smashing their way in with the Rebels' distraction, cleaning Garrosh's clock with overwhelming numbers, and then taking the high road. By high road of course, I mean being the bigger men/women and not razing Orgrimmar... But handing the keys over to Baine and Voljin as an act of mercy and fence mending... Then riding off victorious into the sunset.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  2. #2
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    It's not a matter of victory versus loss. Loss can be interesting as long as its not pointless and doesn't lead to any real development, e.g. the Invasion of Gilneas.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
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  3. #3
    Warchief icausewipes's Avatar
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    The alliance can have Silvermoon and its well groomed back stabbing leader.
    And if you want to remember me, then you can do one thing. That's all, one thing. Have a good life. Do that for me, Rose. Have a fantastic life.
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  4. #4
    WotLK was extremely Alliance centric (I have both Alliance and Horde, while I play Horde more due to RL friend Dwarfs are my second fav race in the game next to Pandaren (and they have been my fave Warcraft race since WC3 Chen was Boss!) ). Honestly i quit for Cata because it just didn't interest me, and I do believe the Kill on Saurfang the Younger the Alliance kill is considered the canon kill for that.

    I honestly think they are going to give the kill (if he even dies.) to either a Neutral NPC or Horde, I'm sorry guys the Alliance being the cannon heroes here will only serve to shatter Horde morale even further than Possessed Garrosh already has. which for game longevity isn't good. I understand you guys want a huge hurrah.. and you guys get almost every hurrah in the novels. Plus a majority of canon is Alliance side when both sides have two diff stories. Soooo yeah.

    I understand Thrall getting the KB on Deathwing many people consider that to be Horde, but let's be real he was representing the Earthen Ring and he is considered nuetral now, just because he was a horde hero, (much like Tirion(sp) was an alliance hero.) doesn't mean he was Horde when the killing blow happened.

    Plus another huge hurrah for Alliance, if they ever do make that Warcraft movie you guys know it's going to be from Alliance prospective.. so really guys .. really how much more do you guys need.
    Last edited by Niuzhu; 2013-04-17 at 01:59 AM.

  5. #5
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivva View Post
    WotLK was extremely Alliance centric (I have both Alliance and Horde, while I play Horde more due to RL friend Dwarfs are my second fav race in the game next to Pandaren (and they have been my fave Warcraft race since WC3 Chen was Boss!) ). Honestly i quit for Cata because it just didn't interest me, and I do believe the Kill on Saurfang the Younger the Alliance kill is considered the canon kill for that.

    I honestly think they are going to give the kill (if he even dies.) to either a Neutral NPC or Horde, I'm sorry guys the Alliance being the cannon heroes here will only serve to shatter Horde morale even further than Possessed Garrosh already has. which for game longevity isn't good. I understand you guys want a hug hurrah.. and you guys get almost every hurrah in the novels. Plus a majority of canon is Alliance side when both sides have two diff stories. Soooo yeah.

    I understand Thrall getting the KB on Deathwing many people consider that to be Horde, but let's be real he was representing the Earthen Ring and he is considered nuetral now, just because he was a horde hero, (much like Tirion(sp) was an alliance hero.) doesn't mean he was Horde when the killing blow happened.
    Wrath was only arguably "Alliance centric" because it featured the resolution of a storyline that began with the Alliance. In truth, it also featured the resolution of a number of Horde storylines, with much of the "development" going towards neutral factions.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Wrath was only arguably "Alliance centric" because it featured the resolution of a storyline that began with the Alliance. In truth, it also featured the resolution of a number of Horde storylines, with much of the "development" going towards neutral factions.
    I played both sides in WotLK and more heavily Alliance.. the story was way more Alliance centric. Like by a lot most of the big big reveals and discoveries were Alliance, and the over all story was a lot better on the Alliance for Northrend content. I would say a lot of WotLK up to Ulduar was very Dwarf centric.

  7. #7
    Brewmaster Klingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Wrath was only arguably "Alliance centric" because it featured the resolution of a storyline that began with the Alliance. In truth, it also featured the resolution of a number of Horde storylines, with much of the "development" going towards neutral factions.
    This.

    Also, think about the "wins" that the Alliance as an entity achieved there: I can't think of any.

    The Argent Crusade was, despite its membership, admitedly a human-centric faction, however they were neutral. The victory against the Lich King really belongs to them.

    Beyond that, Bolvar got murderized and then locked in an icecube. Dalaran (for the time) went from a historically important Alliance human city to a cushy place for the Horde to kick around. It was an element of the Horde that was behind the betrayal at the Wrathgate... And the Alliance's incursion into the Undercity ended up with it back in Horde hands.

    To top it off, we got to finish the expansion off with a large hole in our capital city. Fun stuff.

    Not many wins for an Alliance-centric expansion there folks.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    This.

    Also, think about the "wins" that the Alliance as an entity achieved there: I can't think of any.

    The Argent Crusade was, despite its membership, admitedly a human-centric faction, however they were neutral. The victory against the Lich King really belongs to them.

    Beyond that, Bolvar got murderized and then locked in an icecube. Dalaran (for the time) went from a historically important Alliance human city to a cushy place for the Horde to kick around. It was an element of the Horde that was behind the betrayal at the Wrathgate... And the Alliance's incursion into the Undercity ended up with it back in Horde hands.

    To top it off, we got to finish the expansion off with a large hole in our capital city. Fun stuff.

    Not many wins for an Alliance-centric expansion there folks.
    *Dwarfs discovered a huge part of their ancestry
    *Saurfang the Younger kill, is considered Alliance Canon
    *Your King Returned from years of being missing
    *The Hordes of the Scourge are now being kept at bay by one of your greatest heroes because he made the ultimate sacrifice and became the Lich king.. YOU NOW HAVE AN ALLIANCE ALIGNED LICH KING!
    *The Origin of Humans were revealed on Azeroth
    *Alliance got the Kill on Putriss creator of the Plague (and to be fair I think Varian knows damn well Thrall would have schooled him if he pushed the subject further.)

    There are even more I can point out. Sooooo yeah it was a very Alliance centric Xpac in terms of story.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivva View Post
    *Saurfang the Younger kill, is considered Alliance Canon.
    After he was Scourged, because it was necessary.

    When alive, the Alliance had great respect for Young Saurfang's command.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    This shouldn't be a colaboration between the Horde Rebels and the Alliance. This shouldn't be the Alliance being subservient to the Horde. This should be the Alliance smashing their way in with the Rebels' distraction, cleaning Garrosh's clock with overwhelming numbers, and then taking the high road. By high road of course, I mean being the bigger men/women and not razing Orgrimmar... But handing the keys over to Baine and Voljin as an act of mercy and fence mending... Then riding off victorious into the sunset.
    It's much more efficient for the two factions, the Alliance and the rebels, to work together. You want the Alliance to be the bigger men/women, yet you imply that they shouldn't be willing to work alongside the rebels for the sake of... I'm not really sure why. Not looking weak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    The Argent Crusade was, despite its membership, admitedly a human-centric faction, however they were neutral. The victory against the Lich King really belongs to them.
    If only you could convince everyone to feel this way about Thrall.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivva View Post
    *Saurfang the Younger kill, is considered Alliance Canon
    Alliance canon? So Varians return is Horde canon then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivva View Post
    *The Hordes of the Scourge are now being kept at bay by one of your greatest heroes because he made the ultimate sacrifice and became the Lich king.. YOU NOW HAVE AN ALLIANCE ALIGNED LICH KING!
    If he was really allied to the Alliance wouldn't he be throwing the scourge at the horde?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarles Malarkey View Post
    After he was Scourged, because it was necessary.

    When alive, the Alliance had great respect for Young Saurfang's command.
    Yes but it denied Saurfang from setting things right for his son himself, or at least being there. Plus it showed how much character Varian actually has and his willingness to let Saurfang take his son's body and leave in peace despite his growing hate for the Horde spoke Volumes of a Leader that could well grow to Thrall proportions. That in my book is a HUGE win.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivva View Post
    *Dwarfs discovered a huge part of their ancestry
    *Saurfang the Younger kill, is considered Alliance Canon
    *Your King Returned from years of being missing
    *The Hordes of the Scourge are now being kept at bay by one of your greatest heroes because he made the ultimate sacrifice and became the Lich king.. YOU NOW HAVE AN ALLIANCE ALIGNED LICH KING!
    *The Origin of Humans were revealed on Azeroth
    *Alliance got the Kill on Putriss creator of the Plague (and to be fair I think Varian knows damn well Thrall would have schooled him if he pushed the subject further.)

    There are even more I can point out. Sooooo yeah it was a very Alliance centric Xpac in terms of story.

    Dwarves always knew they were from Earthen. I will give you that the Bronzebeard reunion was a pretty epic line.

    He was Scourged...big deal.

    The King that no one knew about and for most of Wrath hated because all his development occurred in the comics.

    Alliance aligned Scourge...PFTTHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Two quests where you're told you came from giants...deal with it. Versus the questline of the Horde bringing the Taunka into the Horde...Yeah, no competition.

    And Horde got the Kill on Varimathras.


    I can point out more and I will. The Horde Grizzly Hill's questline showing you the disparity cropping up in the Horde over Garrosh's ideals vs Thralls. The whole Forsaken questline for the continued development and deployment of the plague. The Taunka questline spanning two zones.

    People consider Wrath Alliance aligned because of who the big bad was. From a story perspective Blizzard set up things for the current Horde situation very nicely, which shows that they ARE capable of plotting ahead. Problem is it seems that like Cata, nine of their ten were focused on the Horde story while the tenth was home sick.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  14. #14
    i think some alliance players have an inferiority complex. i never once felt like my faction was "constantly losing" in fact the alliance has been completely winning the war in pandaria.

    karasang? we won. jade forest? both lost but the alliance clearly came out on top, 5.3? were pretty much helping the horde... kill horde.

    ive never felt more badass playing alliance then i have in mists.

    the only real complaint i see is the whole reactive versus proactive thing which i think is very true, the alliance needs a few stories where there doing things for there own reasons and not because x knocked over y's teddy bear castles
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  15. #15
    Yes because nothing bad has ever happened to the Horde. No totally an Alliance only phenomenon.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    I've been seeing a lot of articles distilling the Alliance community's sentiment on Wowinsider the last few days, and I thought I'd expand on one of my replies there to make a few points I think are worth making. Do you think the Alliance gets the short end of the stick in terms of "wins" and heroism?

    I think that the Alliance needs and deserves a major victory in their own right. Just one single "Take that, Horde!" moment we see in game rather than read about.

    I'm not talking about the seige of Orgrimmar, which I predict will basically will boil down to doing VolJin's dirty work by sea, handing the city right back to him, giving him a "she'll be right!" wave and sailing off into the sunset.

    I think it's fair to say that although gameplay-wise it was necessary to balance zones, but in Cataclysm the Alliance was truly a punching bag. The Horde got all the victories, the Horde got the juiciest lore and the Horde's most front-and-centre character was made the neutral hero without losing his factional loyalties. The horde even got the second half of the Worgen starting storyline.

    What we need is a time-appropriate version of Dalaran floating in the sky over Theramore's old location... Or a repopulated Gilneas for the Worgen. Maybe some new quest content in the Arathi Highlands that has Stromgarde reclaimed for the Alliance and Thoradin's wall fortified as a new beach-head against the Forsaken, or.... Heaven bloody forbid... Varian ramming a sword through Garrosh's chest.

    This shouldn't be a colaboration between the Horde Rebels and the Alliance. This shouldn't be the Alliance being subservient to the Horde. This should be the Alliance smashing their way in with the Rebels' distraction, cleaning Garrosh's clock with overwhelming numbers, and then taking the high road. By high road of course, I mean being the bigger men/women and not razing Orgrimmar... But handing the keys over to Baine and Voljin as an act of mercy and fence mending... Then riding off victorious into the sunset.
    Swamp of sorrow alliance quest chain & stonard destruction are canon (horde versione is just there for gameplay reason)
    Gilneas alliance version is canon, the forsaken are pushed back and the whole land is an alliance territory.
    Ashenvale alliance version is canon, astranar still in alliance hands.

    Only stonetalon mountain, theramore and southshore are horde canon.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  17. #17
    Scarab Lord Jaxi's Avatar
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    The Alliance lost Theramore, but gained Dalaran and the Kirin Tor. Additionally, Jaina has fully committed to the war, and during Cataclysm you gained Greymane, while the Horde gain a new leader who has yet to show up.

    Ultimately the war comes down to the Horde going into a civil war, while the Alliance is more unified than ever. That's more of a victory than any battle will ever win you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imadraenei View Post
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  18. #18
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxi View Post
    The Alliance lost Theramore, but gained Dalaran and the Kirin Tor. Additionally, Jaina has fully committed to the war, and during Cataclysm you gained Greymane, while the Horde gain a new leader who has yet to show up.

    Ultimately the war comes down to the Horde going into a civil war, while the Alliance is more unified than ever. That's more of a victory than any battle will ever win you.
    Except that unification is being handled in a very backwards-ass way laden with poor writing.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    i think some alliance players have an inferiority complex. i never once felt like my faction was "constantly losing" in fact the alliance has been completely winning the war in pandaria.

    karasang? we won. jade forest? both lost but the alliance clearly came out on top, 5.3? were pretty much helping the horde... kill horde.

    ive never felt more badass playing alliance then i have in mists.

    the only real complaint i see is the whole reactive versus proactive thing which i think is very true, the alliance needs a few stories where there doing things for there own reasons and not because x knocked over y's teddy bear castles
    Wait... Really in krasarang we have won?
    However, cata was hordecentric with some alliance victories (Stonard) and some Horde defeats (which are not alliance victories, because they were on the defense) like astranaar&silverwing in wolfheart, or gilneas (which is rebuilding in lore but completely abandoned in game). But I fear what will happen during the siege...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    I think it's fair to say that although gameplay-wise it was necessary to balance zones, but in Cataclysm the Alliance was truly a punching bag. The Horde got all the victories, the Horde got the juiciest lore and the Horde's most front-and-centre character was made the neutral hero without losing his factional loyalties. The horde even got the second half of the Worgen starting storyline.
    *sigh* here we go again...

    Given the fact that the Alliance had more zones than Horde since vanilla, it made sense that the Horde won a lot of battles since the zones had to be rebalanced. Still, the Alliance got a victory in the Southern Barrens, forgot about that?

    And Dalaran was made into a neutral city, but didn't lose the factional loyalties since it's now back with the Alliance.

    The Horde doesn't have much story in the Worgen starting zone. As a Worgen player you simply meet a lot of Horde? Why? Because of war, because of a storyline. The Horde you encounter in the Worgen starting zone aren't the players.

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