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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    1)Are you finding this to be true single targets? If a dps is below a tank, I would look for a reason. Is 25 substantially different than 10s?

    Last tier, the only fight this was true for was windlord (the one with the blades), because he had a bunch of adds.


    2) Ret is seriously below moonkin now? I can't get to raidbots from work, but I suspect there are several specs below ret still.





    3) The faster a boss dies, the less mechanics. This is doubly so in the case of say, Iron Qon, who gets much harder to kill in his final phase. I do agree that reg modes at least are all balanced around the lower dps values, but it is still better for the raid for more damage to go out- and a player not bringing his A game will hold you back in heroics regardless.



    4)I would generally agree, but in the case of assassination and combat I do not. Combat is a flurry of buttons with a half second GCD at times this tier, and a .8 second GCD much of the time. You have to react to procs stupendously quickly at times- for instance, if you press SS, there is always some lag before the computer registers that it went 2 CP instead of 1, etc. If a rogue is capable of playing combat at 90% efficiency, it should take relatively little effort for such a skilled player to learn mutilate to 90% or more, a spec with less procs and without the general expectation of slammed together globals.
    1) prot paladins tanks currently stack haste, which means they do A LOT of DPS. Paragon's MT on Lei Shen heroic was topping the meters for both DPS and healing, 170K DPS compared to 140K for the next 3.

    2) I was going by the simcraft numbers on their website. Ret paladins technically aren't the worst, but they're close enough, and judging by the T14 heroic numbers (which are close to what a player will do in lei-shen appropriate gear), everyone could get there. also, it was just an example. maybe it's another spec, but every spec is capable of pulling 110K DPS.

    3) while a boss is easier to kill with higher DPS, usually the DPS isn't the real issue, and even if it is, respeccing or rerolling shouldn't be needed. to take raidbots numbers: combat does 135K on lei shen, Assassination 160K when going by top 100 parses (all parses is 121 and 128K). but you deal with confirmation bias: many good rogues go assassination because it theoretically does higher DPS. but those rogues would just as easily kill lei shen as combat, because combat still outperforms the required DPS by around 20%.

    4) maybe rogues weren't the right example, but take warlocks. Demo DPS on lei shen with top parses is 193K. Destro is 173K. if we have a player who played Destro since MoP launch and can reach 90% efficiency, but has never played demo and will only reach 80% efficiency with that because he isn't monitoring his corruption well or whatever, that player will do 156K with Destro and 154K with Demo, so that player should actually play Destro. you probably have something similar with Frost and Unholy DK. I hate the unholy playstyle and perform worse with unholy than with frost.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
    1) prot paladins tanks currently stack haste, which means they do A LOT of DPS. Paragon's MT on Lei Shen heroic was topping the meters for both DPS and healing, 170K DPS compared to 140K for the next 3.
    Well, even Lei Shen LFR has quite a bit of add stacking up. I don't think it's any secret that your #1 aoe dps is vengeance. I haven't even looked at heroic Lei Shen yet- he still has adds right?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
    3) while a boss is easier to kill with higher DPS, usually the DPS isn't the real issue, and even if it is, respeccing or rerolling shouldn't be needed. to take raidbots numbers: combat does 135K on lei shen, Assassination 160K when going by top 100 parses (all parses is 121 and 128K). but you deal with confirmation bias: many good rogues go assassination because it theoretically does higher DPS. but those rogues would just as easily kill lei shen as combat, because combat still outperforms the required DPS by around 20%.
    You can't just arbitrarily say dps isn't the real issue... there are times when that is the case, but there are also a huge number of times where it isn't the case. Like I said before, dps can be the issue still even if you are ahead of the enrage. There are plenty of examples where dps isn't the issue, but no, you can't just make a generalization. I'm not even sure how you could define "real issue" but in my experience dps is very often part of the, if not the entire, issue.

  4. #44
    Thank god they destroyed combat.... So tired of that spec...

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by kilj View Post
    Thank god they destroyed combat.... So tired of that spec...
    So you're saying that you're fine with Assassination being the only strong pve spec for rogues? I really don't understand the rogues who only want one spec to be viable in pve. And don't even say that Combat is fine, because it isn't. This tier there isn't one fight where Assassination isn't the best spec by a decent margin. At least last tier, for everything except maybe Stoneguards and Garalon, Combat and Assassination were more or less on par with each other.

  6. #46
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    'Assass'.

    Really? Really?

    That spec has the worse names I've seen for people shortening it.
    Quote Originally Posted by r03dz View Post
    Also, Jaina and Vereesa going for a rid on their skeleton horses. :P (typo intended)
    Let's look fabulous~. A Paladin transmogrifier item list.

  7. #47
    The truth of the matter is that assassination is ahead for most fights at the moment, and if you need more damage for a particular fight for your raid, or if you're a hardcore raider, you need to know and be prepared to play assassination.

    If you're not a serious raider, or your damage definitely isn't going to hold back your group, play whatever you want. The specs are closer together for some fights than others, but our specs are similar enough that, to a heroic-progression (current tier) raider, "learn your other spec" is something DPS should expect to already have done or hear if their offspec becomes better at any point.

    Unfortunately, discussions of what threshold of DPS is necessary is primarily oriented more for another forum, particularly "Raids and Dungeons"; if you're interested in whether or not encounters can/should be beaten by beating their enrage timers, feel free to discuss it there. Outside of nebulous theory, combat v. subtlety v. assassination is going to always depend on specific encounter mechanics and situations; unless you're discussing one of those, or the current tier as a whole by going over each individual encounter, you're just inviting equally nebulous counter-arguments.

    Given the degradation of responses that aren't directly on the question of what "enough" DPS is, and that that discussion isn't suited for this forum, I'm going to go ahead and close this thread before it becomes either spam-filled or engulfed in flames.

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