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  1. #1
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Capacitive Primal Diamond and Haste

    Yeah, I'm the dude that's just gonna say it... I know its a dirty word. HASTE!

    So, 1% haste at 90 = 425.19 and 1% mastery at 90 = 429. That being said, as SMF simc, my own spreadsheet and napkin math show my haste so close to mastery as is that is seems likely to be...... better?
    Part one:
    Given that we're not using the old meta with a % bonus for crit....
    1) Haste benefits to RPPM items (2PC, Trinkets, Meta, both DS enchants) is better.
    2) Is the nature of haste stacking with (Lust, Flurry, Raid Buff) better, given the RPPM system in BiS?
    3) When the planets don't align and you run a bit low on Enrage uptime, haste is still your friend.
    Part two:
    Is it really as close?... or maybe even (point for point) better? I just did 10 minutes ea on dummies with a reforge either way and it seems very close. Now, I know haste is dirty and smells, this is a warrior truth (cept maybe Arms)... but, maybe getting a bit more AP with more haste and such is better than pure crit/mastery.
    1) I see Landsoul, Sinner and Soy and the boys from EU still on the doin the tried and true... and so am I right now.
    2) I just love new toys like the meta and RPPM's galore and I want all I can get out of them.
    3) I have 812 Respecs, I would guess that's only since they added Achievements - I discovered the Burning Crusade DW arms bleed spec quite a while before it was nerfed because I just read and tried stuff every night after raids.

    Could we be missing something? Has anyone really tried this albeit gross idea of dawning legit Pallly/DK haste gear (Thunderforged of course) and REALLY stacked it up to see? The meta especially seems to be a "tweakable" PPM given that its damage is just an extra special (nature or not).

    TLDR: Haste good-er? Thoughts....

    Constructive Theorycrafters, opinions?

    PS: some late night thoughts would also be the multiplicative scaling with flurry especially. Kinda like the old ways of crit stacking to make for more flurry uptime and more crits (insert loop here).
    Last edited by Appolyon; 2013-04-18 at 01:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Sarosnar's Avatar
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    rPPM work only with true haste bonus and not attack speed bonus. So flurry does not count in rPPM system.
    Btw haste have been buffed in 5.2 by 50%. Meaning we need 425 / 1,5 haste point to get 1% haste. I'm sure this buff apply to attack speed. But does this buff apply to rPPM for warrior ? I'm not that sure of it ... Never read something about this to confirm this 2nd point.

    Hope i helped you go get some TC out of this ^^

  3. #3
    Be interested to see what findings you come up with if your experimenting a bit, planning to start tinkering on haste/crit levels myself on farm content just out of curiosity more than anything else (arms here btw so not too relevant maybe to your own tinkering)

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarosnar View Post
    rPPM work only with true haste bonus and not attack speed bonus. So flurry does not count in rPPM system.
    Btw haste have been buffed in 5.2 by 50%. Meaning we need 425 / 1,5 haste point to get 1% haste. I'm sure this buff apply to attack speed. But does this buff apply to rPPM for warrior ? I'm not that sure of it ... Never read something about this to confirm this 2nd point.

    Hope i helped you go get some TC out of this ^^
    Thanks for the correction on point value - I hadn't even changed my spreadsheet yet.

    The way flurry procs now is just based on attacks (and therefore attack speed). So, more is a multiplicative advantage (that was my reference to the old Crit for Flurry). The buff to our haste does apply to attack speed, our special attacks are all instant (kinda, once Blizz fixes the old silliness of Shatter) - its not like a Retadin where we try to hit that sweet spot. Also - yes, more hits = more procs for a PPM AND given the 6ish we're sitting on as a fury warrior; all haste (from flurry procs, lust, gear stats and encounter buffs [Primordius etc.]) should all increase its net value. Too much of a good thing as far as I've seen in the last 8 years is just better for a warrior.

    @ Jaenus, as of RIGHT now there a TON of highly ranked arms warriors (myself included for a while) running haste stacked builds. Its been good since 5.2 dropped for Arms. Depending on what gear you've picked up even your offpiece (assuming 4 set) you can get some great results being haste stacked.
    Last edited by Appolyon; 2013-04-18 at 02:56 PM.

  5. #5
    The thing about stacking haste is that besides the trinket and meta it only effects our white hits. So lets say for example that we stack haste and loose 6-7% crit. For me that would put my unbuffed crit at 24-24% and we would see lower enrage uptime.

    Now the meta only averages out to be 4-6% of my overall dmg now while RB averages out to be roughly 13%, would dropping that crit and possible going multiple BTs without a crit be made up for from the meta alone?

    Last the stat weights for our BiS gear shows that crit and master are almost equal point for point
    So for me personally it may be interesting the idea of stacking haste but i do not think it will be near the dmg of crit mastery.

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    @Zougail - no, follow me here...


    • Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun
    or
    • Primordius’ Talisman of Rage
    or
    • Gaze of the Twins
    AND
    • Capacitive Primal Diamond
    AND
    • Dancing Steel x2 (to quote a blue post "Dual wielding and having both weapons enchanted with the same enchant will double the frequency of procs that you get. This Real PPM is increased by your haste %. [The highest of your melee, ranged, or spell haste is chosen].)
    AND
    • Last Mogu (2PC Bonus) Which seems to massively change with LOTS of haste.

    Also, just did several CD cycles with haste forged to 21.6% (SMF) interesting stuff:
    1) 85% enrage uptime (no raid buffs)
    2) my feather seemed almost a constant. Wow.


    I'm headed into an LFR - this gear forge and gemming.... FOR SCIENCE!
    Last edited by Appolyon; 2013-04-18 at 04:03 PM.

  7. #7
    Aye mate, been planning on a heavy haste build for a whilst since 5.2 changes where first announced, but wanted to wait for the new meta before going balls to the wall on it, Guess im just gonna experiment a little with what value crit before swapping into haste im happy with /produces best numbers now

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Appolyon View Post
    I'm headed into an LFR - this gear forge and gemming.... FOR SCIENCE!
    Well I guess let's see some logs.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord I Knew It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appolyon View Post

    I'm headed into an LFR - this gear forge and gemming.... FOR SCIENCE!
    Very interested to see some logs when your done

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Here.

    Quote Originally Posted by I Knew It View Post
    Very interested to see some logs when your done
    Shockingly - other than I am not a fan of the primordius trink at all. I usually use the Valor Trink. Not bad really.... the enrage time is GREAT. Looking at Duru especially since there is no encounter buffs. Check my buffs cast. Even with all of my screens spamming me and all of the stuff I was tracking to get good data I didn't stand in the fire too much lol.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e/?s=219&e=585

    Also, I recommend against staring at procs in the maze - even the LFR eyesores hurt.

    PS: this was not at all a full switch - I just switched Mastery for Haste. It seemed that before the LFR as I broke below 30% crit my enrage fell like a Zeppelin. So I just equipped all of the PPMs I had and added a string to reforge-lite that devalued mastery. No consumables except two pots.
    Last edited by Appolyon; 2013-04-18 at 06:21 PM.

  11. #11
    ~282 Haste= 1% rating.
    Flurry increases your attack speed, but does not increase alter the RPPM coefficients.
    RPPM procs have an increasing chance to proc the longer they don't. The method they proc is mostly arbitrary.
    The Lightning Strike from Capacitive Primal meta can Crit, isn't effected by Mastery, and only partially effected by RPPM.
    Chance to Proc = (Proc Base Multiplier) * (1+x, where x = haste percent through rating or specific events aka Lust) * (t, where t = time since last chance to proc) /60 seconds per minute.
    How this equation works in regards to flurry since it's melee attack speed only (not haste) is that you attack faster, but gain no further benefit from RPPM. You gain a slight modifier in that if you are (b) time since your last proc and Flurry is up, you attack more which allows more times for CHANCE to proc but at still low percentages, however it won't change the average amount of procs. The slower attack speed, by the time it would hit, would have a higher chance to proc thus you'd still see the same amount of procs.

    For Fury, Mastery becomes more useful when you have two set tier 15 (due to the increased Rage uptime through the bonus) thus has a greater role on your damage. Same can be said as you get more Crit. Crit is still by far more important than Haste and Mastery. Haste will improve the uptime of RPPM trinkets, but not by a significant amount to outweigh Mastery unless these hastes values are able to reach a plateau where on average, you gain enough increased strength (or crit) to outweigh the benefit of the stats into Mastery. Mastery (at a 530 ish ilvl) will be improving ~95.5% percent of your damage by 1% per 1% of Mastery at 429 rating while Enraged which should be seeing ~95% uptime. Haste, however, will increase the proc chance by .01% per 1% of Haste at 282 rating of (leaving out Meta and 2 set atm) of trinkets with an approximate 30% uptime (feather) and 55% uptime (talisman). 535 Feather is ~7525 strength for 10 seconds, at a 30% uptime it's roughly 2260 bonus strength. 535 Talisman, at ~2.3 stacks with 55% uptime is roughly 2200 bonus strength. So, 4460 strength total.
    Since Haste only gains .01% proc chance from 1% Haste, each 282 rating in Haste is ~44.6 Strength. A gain of 45 Strength is ~90 dps boost.
    Undoubtedly, this is still significant and it doesn't include meta/2 set bonus nor increased attacks per fight/increased rage.

    A sim of a rather well known warrior, Landsoul.
    Base DPS: 173771
    Base DPS+282 Haste: 174379 (608 dps gain)
    Base DPS+282 Mastery: 174493 (722 dps gain)
    Base DPS+282 Crit: 174622 (851 dps gain)
    Based on the gains, 1 Haste = .84 Mastery or 1.2 Haste = 1 Mastery, and .715 Crit = 1 Haste or 1.4 Haste = 1 Crit.
    This is with 2 RPPM trinkets, 2 set tier 15 bonus, and the Capacitive Primal meta.

    A similar sim of an SMF warrior, Chapterhouse.
    Base DPS: 180617
    Base DPS+282 Haste: 181315 (698 dps gain)
    Base DPS+282 Mastery: 181425 (818 dps gain)
    Base DPS+282 Crit: 181606 (989 dps gain)
    This is with replacing the meta in his helm for a Capacitive Primal meta to reap maximum benefit of Haste.

    As you get more gear thus more crit thus more Enrage uptime, Mastery becomes more and more valuable.

    Arms is a little different, however I don't want to get into that right now because I'm tired.

  12. #12
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recke View Post
    ~282 Haste= 1% rating.
    Flurry increases your attack speed, but does not increase alter the RPPM coefficients.
    RPPM procs have an increasing chance to proc the longer they don't. The method they proc is mostly arbitrary.
    The Lightning Strike from Capacitive Primal meta can Crit, isn't effected by Mastery, and only partially effected by RPPM.
    Chance to Proc = (Proc Base Multiplier) * (1+x, where x = haste percent through rating or specific events aka Lust) * (t, where t = time since last chance to proc) /60 seconds per minute.
    How this equation works in regards to flurry since it's melee attack speed only (not haste) is that you attack faster, but gain no further benefit from RPPM. You gain a slight modifier in that if you are (b) time since your last proc and Flurry is up, you attack more which allows more times for CHANCE to proc but at still low percentages, however it won't change the average amount of procs. The slower attack speed, by the time it would hit, would have a higher chance to proc thus you'd still see the same amount of procs.

    For Fury, Mastery becomes more useful when you have two set tier 15 (due to the increased Rage uptime through the bonus) thus has a greater role on your damage. Same can be said as you get more Crit. Crit is still by far more important than Haste and Mastery. Haste will improve the uptime of RPPM trinkets, but not by a significant amount to outweigh Mastery unless these hastes values are able to reach a plateau where on average, you gain enough increased strength (or crit) to outweigh the benefit of the stats into Mastery. Mastery (at a 530 ish ilvl) will be improving ~95.5% percent of your damage by 1% per 1% of Mastery at 429 rating while Enraged which should be seeing ~95% uptime. Haste, however, will increase the proc chance by .01% per 1% of Haste at 282 rating of (leaving out Meta and 2 set atm) of trinkets with an approximate 30% uptime (feather) and 55% uptime (talisman). 535 Feather is ~7525 strength for 10 seconds, at a 30% uptime it's roughly 2260 bonus strength. 535 Talisman, at ~2.3 stacks with 55% uptime is roughly 2200 bonus strength. So, 4460 strength total.
    Since Haste only gains .01% proc chance from 1% Haste, each 282 rating in Haste is ~44.6 Strength. A gain of 45 Strength is ~90 dps boost.
    Undoubtedly, this is still significant and it doesn't include meta/2 set bonus nor increased attacks per fight/increased rage.

    A sim of a rather well known warrior, Landsoul.
    Base DPS: 173771
    Base DPS+282 Haste: 174379 (608 dps gain)
    Base DPS+282 Mastery: 174493 (722 dps gain)
    Base DPS+282 Crit: 174622 (851 dps gain)
    Based on the gains, 1 Haste = .84 Mastery or 1.2 Haste = 1 Mastery, and .715 Crit = 1 Haste or 1.4 Haste = 1 Crit.
    This is with 2 RPPM trinkets, 2 set tier 15 bonus, and the Capacitive Primal meta.

    A similar sim of an SMF warrior, Chapterhouse.
    Base DPS: 180617
    Base DPS+282 Haste: 181315 (698 dps gain)
    Base DPS+282 Mastery: 181425 (818 dps gain)
    Base DPS+282 Crit: 181606 (989 dps gain)
    This is with replacing the meta in his helm for a Capacitive Primal meta to reap maximum benefit of Haste.

    As you get more gear thus more crit thus more Enrage uptime, Mastery becomes more and more valuable.

    Arms is a little different, however I don't want to get into that right now because I'm tired.

    Awesome post with great math. I was curious also about the effect of haste on the meta. Based on the logs above, it is safe to say that haste is not the way to go. 5.9% of dmg done can easily be obtained without reforging haste.

  13. #13
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    its definitely still in progress... The "argument" isn't with simmed data, I've simmed Landsoul many times before - I'm suggesting that the sim values (perhaps, or not) aren't seeing the value (again, or not) of Haste with all of the PPM. I think what you missed in my sleepy ramblings above was the issue that sims aren't made by Blizzard nor can they actually calculate much past Patchwerk well enough to know what its doing in game now. But, at a minimum I'm suggesting that at LEAST in my little time playin at it the 2 piece REALLY seems to blow up with moderate haste gains. I'm trying to see it happen, one way or the other. Especially given that there isn't an Ultraxion or Patchwerk around.

    I'm not even close to actually suggesting that crit will be devalued - its that its more per point value (ie your example of 282=x Mastery<282=xHaste) and therefore has a value within the ppm realm of wonder that isn't simming at this point. More of what I'm trying to see is if there is a point that we reach passively (maybe with the same reforge priority we have now) that (X)Haste makes our other abilities/Procs that much better. I'm almost certain that the PPM can't actually be simd once you get to the minutia (like where your ~=). I want MORE data....its all new. Like Blue says - "random is fun". Right?

  14. #14
    The thing with RPPM, as Blizzard has stated, is to make it "more fun" so more RNG (cuz that's fun...). It won't consistently proc and is more subject to rng. The thing to note is on AVERAGE, the trinket will proc with an x uptime that increases with Haste. However, due to the ideal of RPPM trinkets, you could have an amazing run of RNG where, even though (via time in the equation) the chance to proc is 5%, you still receive that said proc. This obviously favors Haste, however it's very inconsistent. I've done a lot of log checking for the RPPM trinkets because that was niche for a time, but some of the top parses (outside of just being more geared) are seeing almost double the uptime of RPPM trinkets for various reasons (mostly due to boss dying much faster and the duration of Lust accounts for more of the fight and thus, more RPPM uptime. And, haste stacks multiplicatively.
    What this is getting at is for a more sustained/average dps increase, Mastery will out due Haste in terms of through put, due to the high Enrage uptime of Fury Warriors. HOWEVER, Haste, a fraction of the time, will beat out Mastery by not a small margin. Due to the nature of RPPM procs, a majority of the dps of a modeled warrior will be close to the equated percent uptime. However, since it's a chance and not a static gain (in consideration to Mastery on a warrior with 95% enrage uptime), this allows more deviance, such as a bad RNG fight where the trinket proc uptime was just under expected or, the opposite, a great rng fight where (due to whatever reasons, Lust, other buffs, the game liking you suddenly) you can see much greater uptime. So, if you want to parse, and you are willing to deal with bad luck, Haste is probably the answer. A slight deviation on trinket procs into your favor can help immensely. However, if you are just concerned with doing well most of the time, Mastery will provide a more commonly seen dps increase.

    Note, this doesn't devalue anything and my previous discussion only included Crit to show where Mastery/Haste stood in comparison for an easier understanding and I didn't like just doing 2 out of the 3 secondary stats.
    Note, I also think this will change. Next tier, due to likelihood of RPPM trinkets staying and getting better (aka, new raiding tier) and our Enrage uptime staying about the same (we are close enough to 100% that Mastery is almost fully utilized), it is probably going to be the situation where Haste becomes our go to over Mastery, and even (possibly) over Crit (depending on the trinkets coming and what Crit value you are at).

  15. #15
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    @Recke

    Yeah, that's kinda where I'm at. Like, even now, if I JUST REFORGE from Mastery to Haste the numbers are so close that one could argue that its still just RNG. The ONE thing that I can say is that the 2pc bonus seems to be effected a LOT. I did go through an entire gem and forge to haste and forgo crit - the whole nine... and that does not work at this item level. However, given my crit level at that point I still managed to sustain a surprisingly high uptime on enrage, a fact that further supports my theory on the effect of haste on the ppm of the 2pc.

    I gotta say, it seems VERY close at this point, and that, given what seems to be the way of Blizz moving forward - RNG/PPM means that Haste will likely overtake Mastery sooner than later. I would love to have everyone with bunches of PPMs, that has logs, post them here. Especially if they tried to push the envelope haste stacked. Its so close that the more data you have the more you could get from the equation.

    as an example:
    I found an SMF with Feather, Gaze and the meta in logs sitting at 10% haste but forged to mastery. Of course SMF should also help given that PPM is based on attacks.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/xa1qu...6/?s=639&e=893
    Last edited by Appolyon; 2013-04-19 at 10:55 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Appolyon View Post
    @Recke

    Yeah, that's kinda where I'm at. Like, even now, if I JUST REFORGE from Mastery to Haste the numbers are so close that one could argue that its still just RNG. The ONE thing that I can say is that the 2pc bonus seems to be effected a LOT. I did go through an entire gem and forge to haste and forgo crit - the whole nine... and that does not work at this item level. However, given my crit level at that point I still managed to sustain a surprisingly high uptime on enrage, a fact that further supports my theory on the effect of haste on the ppm of the 2pc.

    I gotta say, it seems VERY close at this point, and that, given what seems to be the way of Blizz moving forward - RNG/PPM means that Haste will likely overtake Mastery sooner than later. I would love to have everyone with bunches of PPMs, that has logs, post them here. Especially if they tried to push the envelope haste stacked. Its so close that the more data you have the more you could get from the equation.

    as an example:
    I found an SMF with Feather, Gaze and the meta in logs sitting at 10% haste but forged to mastery. Of course SMF should also help given that PPM is based on attacks.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/xa1qu...6/?s=639&e=893

    Haste does not affect the 2pc "A LOT." It does not affect it any more than it affects any other RPPM effect. It is by far the weakest RPPM effect you'll be running, so I don't know why you think stacking haste for its benefit makes any sense at all. I expected to see posts like this about Gaze/Rage since they actually do see increasing benefits from haste as you stack it do to the nature of their proc, but stacking haste for the 2pc is just laughable. SMF also doesn't help proc it any more, because that isn't how RPPM works.

    In the log you linked, there was a whopping 2 2pc procs over 4 minutes and 13 seconds. You can just look at number of enrage buffs gained - berserker rage buffs gained - BT crits - CS crits to figure it out.

  17. #17
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthan View Post
    Haste does not affect the 2pc "A LOT." It does not affect it any more than it affects any other RPPM effect. It is by far the weakest RPPM effect you'll be running, so I don't know why you think stacking haste for its benefit makes any sense at all. I expected to see posts like this about Gaze/Rage since they actually do see increasing benefits from haste as you stack it do to the nature of their proc, but stacking haste for the 2pc is just laughable. SMF also doesn't help proc it any more, because that isn't how RPPM works.

    In the log you linked, there was a whopping 2 2pc procs over 4 minutes and 13 seconds. You can just look at number of enrage buffs gained - berserker rage buffs gained - BT crits - CS crits to figure it out.
    What I was looking for, rather than personal opinion, was validated information. I get your point about the 2pc, but I'm not sure how its so much worse or somehow differing from other ppm procs in the trigger or methodology, its just a different rate/multiplier. It still seems that more can be hashed out in terms of the maths of it all.

  18. #18
    Blademaster Wrekon's Avatar
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    I hope haste never surpasses crit and mastery in our stat priority in the future....would be too much competition for gear

  19. #19
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrekon View Post
    I hope haste never surpasses crit and mastery in our stat priority in the future....would be too much competition for gear
    Amen, but then at least we're not fighting for Agi gear with hunters anymore. I reference Betrayer of Humanity - I saw a guild destroyed over that one. We're just talkin about plate here.

  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrekon View Post
    I hope haste never surpasses crit and mastery in our stat priority in the future....would be too much competition for gear
    Mastery will probably overtake crit in 5.4. Haste, I don't see it ever beating mastery this xpac.

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