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  1. #1

    Why do heroic raiders get to do the fights non-linear?

    Can anyone give me a good reason why they can do this? Looking at WoWprogress it's quite obvious that the most common heroic progression path is very non-linear. Why is it okay for heroic raiders to do stuff non-linear and normal raiders have to do each boss to get to the next?

  2. #2
    Because they've already done it linearly on normal and gotten the entire storyline in order? Question is why they shouldn't.

  3. #3
    Heroic raiders are still killing all the bosses each week. They just toggle Heroic off for the ones they can't handle.

    How would normal raiders do bosses non linearly? There is no lower difficulty to toggle down to.

  4. #4
    Obviously HC raiders did it before on normal first.
    Try to do Council Of Elders before Ji-Kun and you will see :P
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  5. #5
    Dreadlord Art3x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    Heroic raiders are still killing all the bosses each week. They just toggle Heroic off for the ones they can't handle.

    How would normal raiders do bosses non linearly? There is no lower difficulty to toggle down to.
    Toggle down to LFR and then fail on the next one ;p

  6. #6
    You need to clear the instance in normal first before you can do heroic modes. As as the bosses in Throne of Thunder are linear you have to do them in that order.

    When you have gained heroic access you can switch between normal and heroic bosses. You still need to kill them in the same order, but you can select which heroic bosses to do first. If you want to do Iron Qon heroic though you still need to kill the previous 9 (in normal or heroic) in order to reach him.
    Also, to be able to pull Lei Shen and Ra-Den in heroic you have to do all previous bosses in heroic.

  7. #7
    I know how it works, but I can't see a good reason for it.

    gotten the entire storyline in order?
    Considering there is no real storyline progression I can't see this as a valid reason. Most raiders do it on LFR before they do it in normal anyway so they have already seen the "storyline".
    There is no lower difficulty to toggle down to.
    There is LFR.

    Give me a good reason why heroic raiders can cherry pick easy bossfights. Shouldn't they have to do the hard ones to earn the easies bosses?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    I know how it works, but I can't see a good reason for it.

    Considering there is no real storyline progression I can't see this as a valid reason. Most raiders do it on LFR before they do it in normal anyway so they have already seen the "storyline".
    There is LFR.

    Give me a good reason why heroic raiders can cherry pick easy bossfights. Shouldn't they have to do the hard ones to earn the easies bosses?
    Because the game is designed around normal mode, not heroic. Heroic raiders don't have the option of buying ilvl535 valor gear in order to ease up their progression. We have to kill bosses and get dat loot.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Because they've already done it linearly on normal and gotten the entire storyline in order? Question is why they shouldn't.
    This raid has a story?
    I thought it was just "We gonna go kill the Thunder dude. Oh crap, a turtle, killitbang!"

    As long as the Lei Shen is last the story seems pretty much satisfied.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    I know how it works, but I can't see a good reason for it.

    Considering there is no real storyline progression I can't see this as a valid reason. Most raiders do it on LFR before they do it in normal anyway so they have already seen the "storyline".
    There is LFR.

    Give me a good reason why heroic raiders can cherry pick easy bossfights. Shouldn't they have to do the hard ones to earn the easies bosses?
    To some degree a normal mode raider can choose to que into the last half of lfr to clear a bosses. The major thing here is that normal modes are almost always tuned where the bosses get progressivly harder. Heroic modes, bc of the mechanics they use one boss could be 3x as difficult or have dps checks that are almost impossible to overcome without first doing other heroic bosses or a lot of normal runs. It makes it where a heroic raid can pick and choose a challenge to work on based on what they can do. I can't see a good reason why not.

  11. #11
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    I know how it works, but I can't see a good reason for it.

    Considering there is no real storyline progression I can't see this as a valid reason. Most raiders do it on LFR before they do it in normal anyway so they have already seen the "storyline".
    There is LFR.

    Give me a good reason why heroic raiders can cherry pick easy bossfights. Shouldn't they have to do the hard ones to earn the easies bosses?
    People doing heroics have already cleared all the normal modes in order.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Miko View Post
    To some degree a normal mode raider can choose to que into the last half of lfr to clear a bosses. The major thing here is that normal modes are almost always tuned where the bosses get progressivly harder. Heroic modes, bc of the mechanics they use one boss could be 3x as difficult or have dps checks that are almost impossible to overcome without first doing other heroic bosses or a lot of normal runs. It makes it where a heroic raid can pick and choose a challenge to work on based on what they can do. I can't see a good reason why not.
    In my experience, you are totally wrong. The difficulty of Garalon, Amber SHaper and Empress in Heart of Fear vs. Terrace of Endless Spring. 25 man Horridon, Council and Tortos are waaaay more difficult then Mageara for example. It gets masked because of the forced progression path. If normal had the same ability to skip around like heroic guilds are doing you would see just the same as you see in heroic progression.

    People doing heroics have already cleared all the normal modes in order.
    People doing normal has already done it on LFR in order.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    In my experience, you are totally wrong. The difficulty of Garalon, Amber SHaper and Empress in Heart of Fear vs. Terrace of Endless Spring. 25 man Horridon, Council and Tortos are waaaay more difficult then Mageara for example. It gets masked because of the forced progression path. If normal had the same ability to skip around like heroic guilds are doing you would see just the same as you see in heroic progression.



    People doing normal has already done it on LFR in order.
    LFR Is not a requirement to do normal.
    Normal is a requirement to do heroic.

    Why are you so bent out of shape on how other people play the game, anyway?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    People doing heroics have already cleared all the normal modes in order.
    I actually agree with the basis of the OP's complaint. All the heroic raiders pine for the old TBC days. In which there was only Heroic mode bosses. In those good ol days, you either killed boss #3 or you were stuck. Now you get to skip boss number 3 and maybe do easy bosses 4 & 7 on Heroic.

    That's not so bad, but then you have the same heroic raiders complaining about having to do the bosses twice. Why shouldn't heroic raiders get told the same thing as normal raiders. "Keep head smashing until you get it"? And what does "We've done it already on normal" have to do with getting to skip past a harder Heroic boss to get to the easier one. I'm 99% sure those same heroic raiders would complain about Normal modes, if they could toggle a LFR buff on the harder normal bosses.

    I'm personally a fan of, "once you go heroic you can't go back" mode.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    I actually agree with the basis of the OP's complaint. All the heroic raiders pine for the old TBC days. In which there was only Heroic mode bosses. In those good ol days, you either killed boss #3 or you were stuck. Now you get to skip boss number 3 and maybe do easy bosses 4 & 7 on Heroic.

    That's not so bad, but then you have the same heroic raiders complaining about having to do the bosses twice. Why shouldn't heroic raiders get told the same thing as normal raiders. "Keep head smashing until you get it"? And what does "We've done it already on normal" have to do with getting to skip past a harder Heroic boss to get to the easier one. I'm 99% sure those same heroic raiders would complain about Normal modes, if they could toggle a LFR buff on the harder normal bosses.

    I'm personally a fan of, "once you go heroic you can't go back" mode.
    Why? What do we gain other then satisfying your dislike of skipping? This would mean that raiders that can't full clear most of the heroic instance in a week will have to farm gear in normal for a few weeks and then start progressing. It would also even more separate those with more time from those with more skill. More time being > skill.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    I actually agree with the basis of the OP's complaint. All the heroic raiders pine for the old TBC days. In which there was only Heroic mode bosses. In those good ol days, you either killed boss #3 or you were stuck. Now you get to skip boss number 3 and maybe do easy bosses 4 & 7 on Heroic.
    wat. there were no heroic modes in bc. only normal. the only thing that might even be considered close to a 'heroic mode' was killing eredar twins in some nonstandard way.

    you can't just skip right to ji-kun, you do have to kill all the bosses up to there, doesn't matter if its heroic or normal anyway, the linear progression of the instance is still preserved.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiqjaq View Post
    This raid has a story?
    I thought it was just "We gonna go kill the Thunder dude. Oh crap, a turtle, killitbang!"

    As long as the Lei Shen is last the story seems pretty much satisfied.
    I didn't say it was an elaborate or good story:P.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post
    Why? What do we gain other then satisfying your dislike of skipping? This would mean that raiders that can't full clear most of the heroic instance in a week will have to farm gear in normal for a few weeks and then start progressing. It would also even more separate those with more time from those with more skill. More time being > skill.
    So you got no problem with me toggling LFR mode for normals for the bosses we can quite get? I hear Twins and Lei Shen is pretty easy on 10 man normal. I'd like to go get some of that loot maybe head back to Dumuru later.

    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    wat. there were no heroic modes in bc. only normal. the only thing that might even be considered close to a 'heroic mode' was killing eredar twins in some nonstandard way.
    The point (that Heroic raiders point out) is back in the good ol' days of BC, is that Heroic mode was the normal mode. You either killed the bosses or you didn't
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-18 at 04:13 PM.

  19. #19
    Comparing apples to thermonuclear warheads doesn't really work.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    Give me a good reason why heroic raiders can cherry pick easy bossfights. Shouldn't they have to do the hard ones to earn the easies bosses?
    Why not? It's the same for everyone.

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