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  1. #41
    op = bad troll, or everything that is wrong with WoW and his generation.

  2. #42
    Dreadlord xtramuscle's Avatar
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    we've done the linear stuff all ready, and some bosses are mathematically impossible without x amount of gear.

    If you can get gear from bosses 4 7 and 9, so next week it is possible would you really suggest wiping on bosses 1 2 or 3 for countless weeks, gaining nothing, and not progressing?

    Why not take the path of less resistance? (which after all is what you're moaning you can't do!)

    Your question isn't why do we, it's why can't you? Simply if you can't clear normal in the sequence it is designed, you either need to be happy clearing it in LFR, or improve.

    Vexxe of Old School.



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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaru View Post
    Because people like it better. That's why. There is no other explanation.
    While it's not the most in depth explanation, it's probably the right one.

    This sounds to me like one of those guys that was stuck on horridon and unable to get him down until he was nerfed into the ground, then killed horridon and possibly council too since that fight is a joke anyway and also nerfed further, then got stuck on tortos and is now angry that he has hit a brick wall again and can't progress.

    Meanwhile heroic raiders have already done the entire instance in the exact same forced linear way, and are now working on hard modes which require you to also do the instance in a linear way except you have the option to toggle the difficulty up a notch at any boss you encounter on the path.

    There is nothing wrong with the system, people like the OP just get bent out of shape because they can't progress and look for anything to blame for it and try to make others suffer.
    I never got "bent out of shape". I just asked why this is. You seem to be the one getting bent out of shape.

    op = bad troll, or everything that is wrong with WoW and his generation.
    Yeah, that's not a strawman and an exageration at all....
    Last edited by Noorri; 2013-04-18 at 05:54 PM.

  4. #44
    Um, because they physically can? If you're progressing through heroics and there some easier than others that aren't back to back, they're gonna gear up with the easier ones. If you're doing normals, and there's one normal boss that's really hard for you, what are you gonna do? Toggle it to LFR? No, you have no choice but to beat it and move on

  5. #45
    Why do people keep saying toggle down to LFR, that is NOT AN OPTION. I'm guessing you don't do heroics, but when you swap heroics on and off, you are literally toggling the difficulty of the instance, it reloads and puts you back in the point where you were standing. You have NO option to "toggle" LFR.

    You can queue for it if normal mode is too hard for you, but this thread only made it to 3 pages because the OP doesn't understand the definitions of the terms hes using.

    Linear refers to doing something in a straight progression path. No one is finishing Lei Shen for heroic gear and starting back at the beginning. Please get a fucking dictionary.

    p.s. WotLK wants its complaints back
    Last edited by kippi; 2013-04-18 at 06:15 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by soulkeeperx View Post
    Um, because they physically can? If you're progressing through heroics and there some easier than others that aren't back to back, they're gonna gear up with the easier ones. If you're doing normals, and there's one normal boss that's really hard for you, what are you gonna do? Toggle it to LFR? No, you have no choice but to beat it and move on
    This is such a dumb answer to the op's question. He is asking why can't there be a system in place to allow that. The real answer is because there is nothing lower then normal besides lfr, and lfr isn't meant to work like normal. LFR you can kill the same boss as many times as you want (this is a good thing). Normal and heroic you can only kill each boss once (also a good thing).

    I do feel sorry for the op regarding his issues, but honestly we cleared this tier on normal in ~505-510 ilvl. You can easily get above that with just doing lfr and clearing the normal bosses you have on farm.

    If you are still stuck in normals at this point you aren't going to be doing any real heroic progression. So what is the rush to clear all your content?

  7. #47
    Normal raiders get to as well.

    Toggle down the difficulty to LFR, clear all of that once, and then queue for whatever section of the raid you want to do first, in any order!

    Same thing as heroic raiders getting to do whatever boss they want once they have cleared all of normal once.

  8. #48
    You forgot that blizzard tried the different linear heroic progression on ToTGC, and NOBODY liked doing the same instance 947289473 different times per week.

    And if you try to do the same loot lockout system like LFR with 2 different difficulties/lockout in a ToTGC setup, you'd get hell more complaints than just this thread.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoon View Post
    Normal raiders get to as well.

    Toggle down the difficulty to LFR, clear all of that once, and then queue for whatever section of the raid you want to do first, in any order!

    Same thing as heroic raiders getting to do whatever boss they want once they have cleared all of normal once.
    Real talk this is the only way to do the instance non-linearly :P ONLY LFR HAS THIS OPTION, PLEASE LOOK UP WORDS BEFORE YOU USE THEM

    You can't pick the LFR setting and immediately swap to that instance from normal and you cannot skip a boss in progression and then go back to the previous boss, only their difficulty can be swapped from normal to heroic, please stop misleading people.
    Last edited by kippi; 2013-04-18 at 06:21 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasani View Post
    This sounds to me like one of those guys that was stuck on horridon and unable to get him down until he was nerfed into the ground, then killed horridon and possibly council too since that fight is a joke anyway and also nerfed further, then got stuck on tortos and is now angry that he has hit a brick wall again and can't progress.

    Meanwhile heroic raiders have already done the entire instance in the exact same forced linear way, and are now working on hard modes which require you to also do the instance in a linear way except...
    Except not. Except that heroic raiders don't have to push through a boss that's giving them problems on heroic to get to the next heroic boss. It is, of course, fine to call others bads when they run into that on normal, but if you run into it on heroic you're not bad and should farm more you're... what's the word? Oh yes... entitled.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 11:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cywang86 View Post
    You forgot that blizzard tried the different linear heroic progression on ToTGC, and NOBODY liked doing the same instance 947289473 different times per week.

    And if you try to do the same loot lockout system like LFR with 2 different difficulties/lockout in a ToTGC setup, you'd get hell more complaints than just this thread.
    You're flat out wrong here. ToC's issue wasn't that the entire instance was in either heroic or normal mode, it was that they didn't share a lock out so people felt pressured to do both difficulties. Now, both normal and heroic have the same lockout so you can't do that. Of course, if we kept shared lockouts and forced the difficulty to be at the instance level instead of a per boss thing then you'd have other issues... heroic raids stuck on a boss couldn't go back and farm normal that week. But that's minor. They could say "we're getting stuck and need to farm normal next reset" or they could decide that gear isn't the issue and keep at it in heroic.

  11. #51
    High Overlord DarkSavior's Avatar
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    As a heroic raider, i have never really liked the fact that you can switch it back to heroic after killing a boss on normal, it feels a bit like cheating. It just makes more sense that you should have to kill the bosses in order, even on heroic.
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  12. #52
    To further illustrate what I've said a couple post ago.
    If blizzard ever decides to do 2 different linear progression for normal and heroic just like LFR and normal here's what's gonna happen.

    If loot is individual, a raider now has to raid LFR, normal, every week, and then attempt on heroic mode. This is the model that they used in TotGC and everyone hated clearing the same content many many times in the same week just to get the gear.

    If loot is shared between normal and heroic like multiple kills on different LFR queues, it's the same issue as TotGC, except with even more complaints about why they have to clear trash and kill bosses that don't give loot.
    Not to mention how the raid lead has to plan the raid week around attempting as many heroic bosses as they can, and then leave at least a raid day for a full clear on normal mode. Did I mention how most raiders don't get gear from the first few bosses in the process since they've killed them on heroic?

    Give the ability to skip normal mode bosses that people killed on heroic....Isn't this about the same as the current system? How would you implement this differently without causing more drama within a guild?
    Remember that you're giving the people who didn't participate on a heroic kill this week a chance to push for the normal kills for loot, at the expense of the rest of the raid to waste time for no reward, which circles back to the same problem as the previous method.
    Last edited by cywang86; 2013-04-18 at 06:40 PM.

  13. #53
    [QUOTE=clevin;20866628
    You're flat out wrong here. ToC's issue wasn't that the entire instance was in either heroic or normal mode, it was that they didn't share a lock out so people felt pressured to do both difficulties. Now, both normal and heroic have the same lockout so you can't do that. Of course, if we kept shared lockouts and forced the difficulty to be at the instance level instead of a per boss thing then you'd have other issues... heroic raids stuck on a boss couldn't go back and farm normal that week. But that's minor. They could say "we're getting stuck and need to farm normal next reset" or they could decide that gear isn't the issue and keep at it in heroic.[/QUOTE]


    i think people would have been more tolerant of doing toc a bajillion times a week if toc hadn't been such a piece of shit raid.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  14. #54
    Just out of curiosity, don't the world first guilds clear content in order usually? At least this tier glancing over wowprogress I don't believe I saw Method, Paragon, or Blood Legion skipping bosses at all. They just brute forced their way through the instance. I can see the OPs point, it kind of makes sense to progress through the instance linearly. At the same time though, I feel like the kind of guilds that do that are striving for world firsts. If you're not shooting for world firsts, why get bent out of shape about it?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSavior View Post
    As a heroic raider, i have never really liked the fact that you can switch it back to heroic after killing a boss on normal, it feels a bit like cheating. It just makes more sense that you should have to kill the bosses in order, even on heroic.
    Why? Honestly why does that make sense? It allows heroic raiders who can't raid 180 hours a week to continually farm gear. And the end bosses are all locked until you clear all the other bosses. I just don't see that issue.

  16. #56
    There's also the problem with non-linear winged raid setup, like Naxx, Ulduar, ICC, Fireland, and the multiple raids per tier like BWD + BoT + ToFW.

    Really, whatever you implement for the above tiers, you can't escape the 'cherry picking' phenomenon. So why would blizzard ever bother to waste time on a linear system for heroic, just so they can scrape the entire winged or multi-raid tier concept?

    and honestly, if people feel the need to skip a normal mode boss, it's blizzard's fault for not tuning the raid correctly, or the raider's fault as they don't even have a chance to clear the last boss on normal mode. In the later case, why are you bothered by the better skilled/geared raiders having more 'privilege' than you do?
    Last edited by cywang86; 2013-04-18 at 06:56 PM.

  17. #57
    High Overlord DarkSavior's Avatar
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    I raid 8-12 hours a week, and i'm not saying the current system is bad, just illogical. You should start the instance on heroic, clear as many heroic bosses as you can, then swich to normal when you come across one you cant get past and finish the instance to try again next week.
    Last edited by DarkSavior; 2013-04-18 at 07:00 PM.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post
    Why? Honestly why does that make sense? It allows heroic raiders who can't raid 180 hours a week to continually farm gear. And the end bosses are all locked until you clear all the other bosses. I just don't see that issue.
    Because it makes it impossible for Blizzard to implement a nice difficulty curve, which shouldn't be a curve really. You want raids to have a very hard boss with an easier boss following it and that's clearly what they've tried to do in ToT.

    You have a very difficult boss in Council, followed by a much easier boss in Tortos.
    You have a difficult boss in Megaera, followed by Ji'kun.
    Durumu, then primordius.
    Dark Animus, followed by Iron Qon.

    This way after you've spent several days progressing on something, you get a boss that's killable in an evening. This is pretty much ruined when you can just go through and do all the easy bosses first.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSavior View Post
    I raid 8-12 hours a week, and i'm not saying the current system is bad, just illogical. You should start the instance on heroic, clear as many heroic bosses as you can, then swich to normal when you come across one you cant get past and finish the instance to try again next week.
    I'm with you on that. If Blizzard was opting for a super long tier, the linear approach would have served to artificially extend content, but they would have had to have done a better job balancing bosses. Iron Qons towards the end and is downed within a few pulls. On the flip side, some guilds that can down him are struggling with bosses placed several spots earlier.

  20. #60
    Because the 5th boss in the instance on Heroic mode could be like Ultraxion for example and isn't much harder than normal mode, yet the 3rd boss on heroic mode could be much harder than the 5th is on heroic. So you do the heroic ones you can do on heroic, and the ones you can't on normal, until you can do them on heroic.
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