Thread: Incanter's ward

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  1. #1

    Incanter's ward

    So I've really come to hate having to evo so much ever fight and I've been wondering how much I would be gimping myself if I took Incanter's ward over invocation. There is predictable damage on every fight this teir so we can keep it pretty close to cooldown and we it gives us a tad bit more mobilty. Anyone been running it successfully this teir want to leave some feedback?

  2. #2
    The ONLY fight where Evocation would be a problem, and its not hardly at all, would be Tortos. Evocation is a 2 second cast. The throughput is better and you don't have to worry about anything for 1 minute at a time. I've tried IW and it was a huge dps loss, even using it on CD

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by mengele View Post
    we have absolutely no problem keeping evocation up and w/ a 2 second cast and 58 seconds of movement it beats IW. Yes, there's consistent damage this tier but I'd prefer consistent, stable DPS than spike DPS any day

  5. #5
    I could be comprehending this wrong, but I do believe that the comparison posted in that link is between using Invocation and just the passive from IW. It states that in order for Invocation to be better than the IW passive, you need to be dps'ing 58/60 seconds. In fact, if you cannot dps for 55/60 seconds during Invocation, it is not even worth casting. There are quite a few mechanics in this tier that could prevent you from dps'ing for a few seconds.

    We know that IW passive grants 6% more spell damage, and just that puts it just below perfect Invocation usage. Using the IW active portion perfectly will average out to ~12% spell damage gain. Even getting just one good IW pop will average out to ~6.5% damage gain.

    With the information given from that post one could conclude that IW has a higher damage potential than both Invocation and RoP. This falls on the player of course, and using IW correctly. Also, using nothing but the passive will probably put you equal with all but the best Invocation users.

    If I am misreading the linked post, feel free to point out the flaws; this was just my understanding of the content.

  6. #6
    the point was made that you have to cast for 58/60 seconds....there isn't a fight in here that prevents you from doing that...I've done them all, never had a problem. In comparison of my own logs, and others, Invocation > IW. Tortos is the only fight where it would be of use to switch to IW. The majority of mages are, however, running Invocation.

  7. #7
    I just wanted to inform the OP that swapping to IW wouldn't gimp his damage and could possibly improve it with smart usage. This is especially true if his Invocation uptime was not optimum.

  8. #8
    i use IW on tortos and i saw pretty big dps jump when i was using it in place of evo. but all other fights evo>IW

  9. #9
    Field Marshal
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    I don't think there's anyway to make a blanket statement that Invocation > IW or the other way around ... there's just too many variables.

    For example - I have Wushoolay's ... if I'm doing Magera and using IW active on every rampage and manage to get good RNG and have 2-3 times where IW active and Wushoolay proc line up, then it just crushes anything I could have from Invocation ... the stacking of those two is ludicrously good. And if I can AT one of those times when they are lined up ... hell yes! But, if I don't get good RNG, then invocation would be better. I feel that IW is just much more RNG dependent in terms of what procs it ends up stacking with, and it's really dependent on which trinkets you have.

    The one other benefit that IW gives that isn't really theory craftable is that there is a distinct survivability bonus component. It's not huge, but it is real. There's fights where your healers just don't need to trying to keep DPS up - and as a frost mage with already terrific survivability it's nice to have one more tool available to sort of go "I've got myself, you look after other people who need it more". That probably matters more during progression than on encounters you have on farm, but it's nice to have if you need to pull it out.

    I think invocation and IW both have their places. I use them about 60/40 or 70/30 ... just depends on what fight and what I'm trying to do. I like the fact there isn't a clear obvious choice like there was earlier in MOP (invocation was the only option, basically - it was just too good to pass up).

  10. #10
    The Patient Deztru's Avatar
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    Talking of personal experience now, in ToT all the encounters have many raid-damage mechanics that you can easily soak all IW's on, there are fights where IW competes way better than Invocation, but on fights where it is less competent it is still equal or better than Invo.

    Invocation to me is just a jack-of-all-trades, but learning to use IW correctly outperforms Invo. I play fire, so maybe Invo is better for frost with more haste.

    (Just adding this here, everytime I soak IW on the Slimed DoT of Ji'kun, I nearly piss myself from all the damage output.)

  11. #11
    IW has some situational use as fire on fights like tortos, durumu and such where damage is predictable and there's a lot of movement. The catch is that you want to ideally use it when you want to burst damage or have combustion off CD, to benefit from the damage buff. Those are usually times during which you were planning to stand still for an extended period anyway, in order to build a decent enough ignite to combust off of, so you should have been able to evocate long beforehand.

    All of the movement this tier is predictable. You should know when you're going to need to move, and plan evocation accordingly. IW has its uses, but is a crutch for poor positioning resulting in too much movement.

  12. #12
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    Using IW vs Invo will not gimp your DPS in any way and in some encounters improve it. Saying its a poor player spell is a mistake and if played well is more beneficial for DPS.

    Now granted using Ivo gives you that full 1m of 15% increases dmg and yea on most bosses in ToT you can predict when the best times to do it but there are always things you can't predict, movement out of debuff on the ground that RNG gives ya or avoiding a mechanic that can hurt ya, there are lots of instances where you have to move and its outside your control in when you deal with a particular mechanic.

    Use either one imo they both have pros and cons but give roughly the same DPS improvement so just have to choose your flavor.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by mengele View Post
    I could be comprehending this wrong, but I do believe that the comparison posted in that link is between using Invocation and just the passive from IW. It states that in order for Invocation to be better than the IW passive, you need to be dps'ing 58/60 seconds. In fact, if you cannot dps for 55/60 seconds during Invocation, it is not even worth casting. There are quite a few mechanics in this tier that could prevent you from dps'ing for a few seconds.

    We know that IW passive grants 6% more spell damage, and just that puts it just below perfect Invocation usage. Using the IW active portion perfectly will average out to ~12% spell damage gain. Even getting just one good IW pop will average out to ~6.5% damage gain.

    With the information given from that post one could conclude that IW has a higher damage potential than both Invocation and RoP. This falls on the player of course, and using IW correctly. Also, using nothing but the passive will probably put you equal with all but the best Invocation users.

    If I am misreading the linked post, feel free to point out the flaws; this was just my understanding of the content.
    The math just doesn't work like the post. Its assuming that you will get the full benefit of IW and not do DPS at all with Invocation (Not the same as not casting). Problem is casting time is independent of your level 90 talents. Its not a valid comparison to look at 55/60 seconds cast time versus 60/60 seconds cast time. Of course you will do less damage if you DPS for less time, but that is not related to IW vs Invocation. IW needs a global and Invocation requires a cast time; they affect number of spells cast equally. DoTs mean that not casting cannot be considered not doing dps.

    The comparisons are fundamentally flawed; and if you read the thread it's pointed out multiple times. IW can be good but for the amount of babysitting it requires the benefit is nill since invocation is an easier mechanic to use. At best they are even in terms of damage increase. At worst Invocation is miles ahead.
    Last edited by Proakryt; 2013-04-29 at 04:08 PM.

  14. #14
    Invocation was made to be the "lazy" option, for mages who didn't really want to bother with runes and channels. In that context it works well.

    Sure, it can possibly pull ahead of the other two under ideal circumstances (e.g. being able to have a v good uptime on the actual buff), but when compared in optimal situations (i.e. situations optimal for each talent), it does lose out.

    As many have already stated, the channel time reduced Invocation of 5.2 is just plain easier to use optimally, and that is a big plus point for Invocation over IW.


    The irony in all this is that it was IW that was meant to be the 'lazy option', but it is in fact Invocation that has become it.

    That being said, fight specific mechanics will play a much larger role in selecting IW over Invocation (or even IW vs RoP). The actual fight itself is much more important to which talent works as close to optimal and plays a much bigger role in the selection process than just the mathematical and/or theoretical aspects of the talents.


    With all that said, if you can line it up, your CDs popped, lusted burst will be higher with IW, and there are many fights that can take advantage of this (esp ones where the boss is vulnerable to damage at very specific points in the fight).
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
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  15. #15
    The problem is that with any sort of movement Invocation wins over RoP every time, plus its just better to be more mobile. So it comes down to IW vs. Invocation. IW can be good I agree, and your point about theoretical vs realistic dps and mechanics is spot on:
    That being said, fight specific mechanics will play a much larger role in selecting IW over Invocation (or even IW vs RoP). The actual fight itself is much more important to which talent works as close to optimal and plays a much bigger role in the selection process than just the mathematical and/or theoretical aspects of the talents.
    I wish IW was more appealing but like your post says Invocation is just easier and therefore usually better.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    I too am wondering how much IW would gimp my DPS. I'm talking casual numbers here like 5 man dungeon/heroics(perhaps even challenge modes?) and LFR. I absolutely hate having to maintain a buff in order to do optimal DPS and I rather use IW with the occasional on use above the other options.

    How much would the difference be for both a fire and frost mage? 1k dps? 5k dps? 20k dps? (this is at lower ilvls going from 450 to 500)

  17. #17
    i recently relevled my mage and tried it .. to be honest its pretty bad yes sure it might have its uses but the other 2 are so much better.

  18. #18
    Field Marshal Neonore's Avatar
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    Think of it this way: If you have to nuke (that add needs to die, NOW), what is better; 15% extra damage or 6% extra damage ...

    It's not about dps, it's about doing damage.

    *edit: fixed 25 to 15 even 15 is better then 6 :P
    Last edited by Neonore; 2013-04-30 at 01:35 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Neonore View Post
    Think of it this way: If you have to nuke (that add needs to die, NOW), what is better; 25% extra damage or 6% extra damage ...
    It's 15%, not 25.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Neonore View Post
    Think of it this way: If you have to nuke (that add needs to die, NOW), what is better; 15% extra damage or 6% extra damage ...

    It's not about dps, it's about doing damage.

    *edit: fixed 25 to 15 even 15 is better then 6 :P
    I definitely get what you mean, that doing more damage is going to kill those adds faster.

    But, I just have to say it. DPS literally means damage per second. So it doesn't make sense to say it's not about DPS but it is about damage.

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