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  1. #1

    Getting into guilds capable of doing heroic modes

    Okay here is the background. Towards the end of cata I got into a guild that killed Madness HC @ 10% nerf as a shammy healer. Did fine with the trials and was looking forward towards some MOP raiding. Real life interfered and I was not able to do squat in MOP and that guild subsequently collapsed. I will get back into WoW in May. The problem I have is that the people who knew what I was capable of xferred off server. I don't have much of a raiding resume in MOP (I have not even completed LFR in Tier 14 though I do have a char at 90 with both professions maxed) and the overall process of recruitment does not revolve around "potential". I have good raid awareness and I am good under pressure. I could raid with some guilds that are currently 6/12 Normal but that would be a depressing experience. I spent majority of my wow career before I got into that guild surrounded by players, who may have been nice people, but not terribly good at wow.

    So what should I do? Should I give up healing and learn one dps to extreme?(I have a shammy @90, lock,hunter,mage,dk,druid, pally @85. Leveling wont be an issue)

  2. #2
    Either find a guild that will allow you to sub in whenever someone doesn't need loot so eventually your potential can be realized or find a stepping stone guild (as much as I hate saying something like that) where you can scoop up some gear and get some experience and then move on.

  3. #3
    High Overlord Talyrius's Avatar
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    You're probably going to have to join a guild farming normal to get gear before you'll have much of a chance joining a heroic guild. They won't want to bring anyone that may hamstring their ability to progress.

  4. #4
    From my experience, it seems to me that you're going to have to start from the bottom again if you want to get back on top. There's a price to be paid when you leave things, whether you leave them for better or for worse, and restarting is the price. Think of it as just a step, if you want to get back to the top, you'll get there quickly once you get some basic gear and start cranking out logs. If you can get decent logs in Normal modes, the lower end HM guilds may start looking at you if you app.

  5. #5
    the only way to do it is get into a guild capable of clearing normal so you get the experience at least for normal and that will give you the ability to get the gear but that will take time, no guild progressing on HC content will want to trial someone with little experience in heroic raiding along with the lack of gear as it will only slow down the progress of that guild.

    500 ilvl and at least full normal experience is the minimum to enter a guild on heroic content.

  6. #6
    Trust me. You do NOT want to get into a higher-end guild with no gear. It seems nowadays that the amount of gear you currently have is overlooked and you're expected to perform onpar with their current raiders, or better.

    I say suck it up and find some guild that is progressing and get some experience and gear from them. I'm not saying use them, as you may end up liking who you are with, but if they don't seem to sate your hunger for progression maybe then you can start looking at top guilds.

    This is from my experience, though it may not apply to anyone else. I joined a guild with 508 item level when everyone else was 516-523 (or more). Was constantly yelled at for being middle of the pack (despite being the worst geared person in the raid), etc. You'll quickly kill your desire to play if you put yourself in tough situations.
    Last edited by Forsedar; 2013-04-13 at 03:18 AM.

  7. #7
    The lower end HM guilds don't even need normal logs all the time. A number of them have no issue with LFR logs and giving a decent player a shot based on them. You just need to make sure you have done as much as possible to get geared and raid ready prior to app'ing.

  8. #8
    without contacts it's going to be like a job, you're going to have to start at the bottom and work your way up as less competent players can outperform you with a 30 ilvl advantage and guilds don't want to wait around.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 04:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    The lower end HM guilds don't even need normal logs all the time. A number of them have no issue with LFR logs and giving a decent player a shot based on them. You just need to make sure you have done as much as possible to get geared and raid ready prior to app'ing.
    who are these guilds? atm no guild with even 2/13 hc is going to look at LFR logs. and 1/13 = gunship/morchok loot pinata skill isn't HM raiding.

  9. #9
    I'd be happy if I was able to get into a guild that has 6/12 normal. Wiping on Horridon for weeks and having to clear the wind bridge every time, now that's a depressing experience. Can't even apply to the better guild because they all want more more gear and experience than I could possibly have, and there is not much need for my class.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    who are these guilds? atm no guild with even 2/13 hc is going to look at LFR logs. and 1/13 = gunship/morchok loot pinata skill isn't HM raiding.
    If it's a DPS app, then an LFR log can at least give an idea of numbers (and also shows if you were cheesing the fight in some way or getting 398748934 determination stacks obviously), but you are correct in that they're still best supplemented with actual logs to show mechanical execution.

    My favorites are the ones that app with youtube videos though.

    Heroic Recruitment -- Hersh's multi-PoV kill vids. -- Raids & Dungeons & Hunter kitty
    no one huntars like gaston

  11. #11
    No heroic mode level guild will take you without gear. +500-510 item level is what's expected for the easier ones, and even then you'll probably be far behind the average (our 10 man alt run who "only" got 9/16 heroic last tier and hasn't done any heroics yet this tier has an average item level of ~515, and thats with gearing three characters from the bottom up[480-500 item level] - a rogue, a tank and a leather healer).

    More importantly, right now is the worst possible time you could want to apply to a heroic level guild - every single one bar method are in full-blown progress mode right now, and every single piece of gear is as valueable asset to get the next boss down.

    What we have done for a returning player that wanted to get back into the game with only previous-expansion experience to show for it (and a vote of confidence from one of our raiders), is allow him to join our weekly friday alt runs, in order to gear up to an adequate standard so he can "trial" in the main raid (although to be fair, you'd know if a person is worth keeping or not after gearing them in alt raids for awhile anyway).
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...iraxd/advanced is his armory link, for reference - he had 485-490 ilvl or so when we started running him through (Infinite coins from thunder isle in the old LFR's means that anyone putting a slight bit of effort in, and getting crafted 496 epics and a few valor items will easily be able to reach 490).

    As you can see, in ~4 resets worth of 10 man, he's gotten "up to par" with what our raid started doing heroic modes with the first week.


    So essentially - failing getting a spot in a alt run of a "good" guild, you'd want to just bite the bullet and try to gear up in normal modes. If you put in effort, it won't take as long as you might think - VP and LFR are great tools.

  12. #12
    Getting gear/learning encounters getting up to date gems and reforges makes sense. Would I have an easier time joining as a DPS or should I try as a healer? I love healing but I am open to playing the lamest dps spec if needed.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    If it's a DPS app, then an LFR log can at least give an idea of numbers (and also shows if you were cheesing the fight in some way or getting 398748934 determination stacks obviously), but you are correct in that they're still best supplemented with actual logs to show mechanical execution.

    My favorites are the ones that app with youtube videos though.
    Haha, not sure if sarcastic or not, but we recently had our first app with someone posting a fraps of him killing some boss. it never happened before, so I was kinda surprised. It's the worst idea ever, because watching someone play from thirdperson will only highlight the things you do wrong, and not the things you did right, unless they're really wtf amazing. Even when watching top guild vids, I often find myself frowning at said player's performance. Sure it's great performance, but all you notice is the mistakes, no matter how little. It's also why watching vids back that you made of yourself playing is a great way to spot your weaknesses, but it rarely should be used to show off your skill.

    As someone said, progression guilds won't want to risk their progress with you, no matter how harsh that sounds. Guilds like that usually get a lot of applications and 9 out of 10 are crap. You don't have much to make you stand out of those. You bring no guarantee that you're not a waste of time and effort. You bring, effectively, nothing to a guild right now. I think you said you wanted to start in May, a better time than right now in the middle of fresh progress, but still an awful time. The best time to apply is when progress is done: new recruits are zero risk then.

    That's a harsh truth, but armed with that, you can work to resolve that. As some suggested, get into less ranked guilds. Guilds that are 1 heroic down, or just killed lei shen normal. Or even less than that. Grab some gear. Do your best, save your best logs (not just logs of an entire evening, show yourself on your best side, not on your "average" side). Slowly work your way up like that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 05:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    Getting gear/learning encounters getting up to date gems and reforges makes sense. Would I have an easier time joining as a DPS or should I try as a healer? I love healing but I am open to playing the lamest dps spec if needed.
    Both are coveted. The hardest thing to find a spot as, is a tank. Good, really good healers, are incredibly hard to find. If you're really good, you'll find a spot no problem. Most importantly, though I know this is cliche, you should play what you want. Warlocks and rogues are usually dps that are hard to find, and those that are around are usually bad. Most recruits I see are looking for those. But it won't help you if you're playing a rogue when every night you wish you could be on your shaman. In the long run, it will affect your motivation and performance, even though right now you're desperate to raid no matter what.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-04-13 at 03:49 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    Haha, not sure if sarcastic or not, but we recently had our first app with someone posting a fraps of him killing some boss. it never happened before, so I was kinda surprised. It's the worst idea ever, because watching someone play from thirdperson will only highlight the things you do wrong, and not the things you did right, unless they're really wtf amazing. Even when watching top guild vids, I often find myself frowning at said player's performance. Sure it's great performance, but all you notice is the mistakes, no matter how little. It's also why watching vids back that you made of yourself playing is a great way to spot your weaknesses, but it rarely should be used to show off your skill.

    As someone said, progression guilds won't want to risk their progress with you, no matter how harsh that sounds. Guilds like that usually get a lot of applications and 9 out of 10 are crap. You don't have much to make you stand out of those. You bring no guarantee that you're not a waste of time and effort. You bring, effectively, nothing to a guild right now. I think you said you wanted to start in May, a better time than right now in the middle of fresh progress, but still an awful time. The best time to apply is when progress is done: new recruits are zero risk then.

    That's a harsh truth, but armed with that, you can work to resolve that. As some suggested, get into less ranked guilds. Guilds that are 1 heroic down, or just killed lei shen normal. Or even less than that. Grab some gear. Do your best, save your best logs (not just logs of an entire evening, show yourself on your best side, not on your "average" side). Slowly work your way up like that.
    I was being somewhat genuine, actually. A fraps of play in a raid does always show all the little mistakes you make, but everybody makes those little mistakes during play. But it's really about showcasing what you can do if you want to wow with a vid and choosing the right boss.

    As for logs... I disagree. I want to see all of the logs, not only your baddassest most amazingest ones, but the ones where you aren't necessarily doing so hot, too. Nobody's perfect, but being able to know where you're struggling the most is key to fixing it. True for just about anything I suppose, not just raiding, obviously.

    Heroic Recruitment -- Hersh's multi-PoV kill vids. -- Raids & Dungeons & Hunter kitty
    no one huntars like gaston

  15. #15
    I'm a recruitment officer for a guild clearing heroics, formerly a top-10 US guild. Few tips that may help.

    - Don't plan on getting into a heroic-clearing guild now. Quite simply, we get apps every day that can not only claim to have potential, but prove it with experience and logs, and currently have the gear to execute it without having to be a "project". Your best bet is to plan for next tier.

    - It doesn't matter what class you play, but pick a "main" and stick to it. Gear it up to the absolute best of your ability with whatever current content you have access to - on-server pugs, LFR, dungeons, crafting, whatever. Gem it, enchant it, use proper glyphs, and record and post logs - even if it's LFR. Anything you can do so people aren't just taking your word for it is a good thing, no matter how small it may seem. Don't fall into the trap of thinking "why should I get 502s when I could just get 522s if I could get into a guild...". You won't get in a guild that meets your standards if you think that way.

    - Be ready to server transfer. Unless you get very lucky, you're not going to find a guild on your own server that's looking for your class. Guilds worth looking at are thinking about their roster, so they won't pick up somebody just because - they'll do it because you're a hunter (or whatever) and they need a hunter. If you're not willing to transfer, you're waiting for luck.

    - Be serious when filling out an app. Effort put into apps, regardless of what level of guild you're applying to, reflects on your seriousness as a player. If they don't know you, it's your first impression, and they count for a lot. Treat it as applying for a job - it sounds silly to take it that seriously, but when you think about how much time you'll be spending with the people you're planning on raiding with, you'll understand why you want a guild that expects you to put that level of effort in.

    - Don't treat guilds as stepping-stones. Treat every guild as one you may end up staying in permanently. A lot of guilds that were 12/12 last tier may end up clearing several heroics this tier, and then cleaning out next tier. The more good players stick around, the more likely that is to happen. Be one of those guys. However, if a guild is stagnating and you don't believe the leadership can keep it growing, then look elsewhere - you want your guild to be one with the same goals as you.


    All kinda general advice, but hopefully at least some of it will be of help.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    I was being somewhat genuine, actually. A fraps of play in a raid does always show all the little mistakes you make, but everybody makes those little mistakes during play. But it's really about showcasing what you can do if you want to wow with a vid and choosing the right boss.

    As for logs... I disagree. I want to see all of the logs, not only your baddassest most amazingest ones, but the ones where you aren't necessarily doing so hot, too. Nobody's perfect, but being able to know where you're struggling the most is key to fixing it. True for just about anything I suppose, not just raiding, obviously.
    Of course, I want to see ALL his logs as well, but HE wants to sell himself to a guild. Won't do that by showing any bad sides. A bit like a job interview. That's what I meant. Of course we all make mistakes, and we all know this, still, that won't stop the guild you're applying to from putting more emphasis on where you screwed up rather than where you did well. Edit: That said, I absolutely love it when a recruit points out in his application what his weak spots is/are and how he is adressing them. Shows an awareness I very much approve of. It's a bit of a paradox. Showing knowledge and proficiency at your class is the number one thing, but showing self-awareness and determination to continually improve is also very important. For example, posting all your logs and then highlighting what's great and what's not so great about them does both. Most people just post a log of the LFR they accidentally did yesterday and expect to be accepted however, or worse, post a vid of an easy heroic kill where they're constantly making errors (even grave ones, in the case of our applicant, but more importantly: a lot of minor, normal, human ones that he should have been aware of and told us, "you know, I'm aware I didn't use holy shock as often and as well as I should have in that phase because x or y, and thanks to having frapsed myself I now know this for the future. Everyone makes mistakes and I'm no exception, I continually strive to improve myself however". Something like that. Not: dump video/logs and leave it completely open for interpretation, which will rarley work out in applicant's favor.)

    Sound advice from Shamanberry, by the way.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-04-13 at 04:16 AM.

  17. #17
    I disagree that fraps etc are a good way to apply with. More than likely, if you're showing off a record, it's of a kill of a boss - which means that the stars aligned and you killed it (being carried or not). I would much rather dig through a few wipenights and see how much derp the person does - standing in stuff, dpsing wrong targets, etc... It's much easier to see than in a video.
    (Also, it's true that you notice tons of flaws, even from high end players - I mean, Paragon's Lei shen 10 kill. As a hunter, I facepalmed when devai ran into the raid with his static shock and deterrenced, instead of just standing outside and solo soaking it instead of almost killing the druids <.<. On the other hand, you also notice the sick stuff, like Kruf on Al'Akir disengaging that tornado wall).

  18. #18
    Don't join a below average guild farming normals, just join an average that's getting into early heroics that's on jinrokh or something. They're easy to get into and you can get experience.

  19. #19
    Way behind in gear will not get you very far as any class, only working on potential. However, being slightly behind (Say full normal geared) can earn you a spot based off potential in a heroic guild that is on farm mode. When guilds are on full progress mode, taking someone based on potential that has a lower ilvl just hinders the guild progress - since even played at the classes utmost potential, it will still be behind someone with a gigantic ilvl difference.

    The above makes it harder than ever now to move up from normals into heroics, thanks to the faster release of patches and content not being sat on farm mode forever. Your best bet is to first get into a guild that fully clears normals. Use your normal gear and heroic potential to app to a guild if they are on farm or have alt/side runs that you can show your potential in as well as gearing up. In which case if you prove yourself, you can be taken into the main raid.

    Your other choice is to move from normals into a guild that does a couple of heroics, say half, before a new tier is out.. and get your gear near that of those that full clear- then apply to a better guild and get accepted based off potential since your gear is pretty close to theirs.

    Either way you are almost certainly gonna have to work your way up, regardless of the class/spec you play, starting with a guild that full clears normals because of how fast raid patches are released now.

  20. #20
    What concerns me is you admit you haven't even finished T14 LFR and you want back in on a Heroic level guild. Why should they bring you in and be forced to give you every drop because it would be such a colossal upgrade while you don't want to spend the time clearing what they did to get to that point?

    You're probably just going to have to suck it up and grind it out in LFR/Normal for a while. A Level 90 toon with maxed professions is really just about the bare minimum you can do and still even enter a raid.

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