Rebuttal to Vol'jin 5.3 Spoilers

[Sandrox]

That's pretty much the problem. Story so far indicates that garrosh would not only be able to deal with rebelion (that keep in mind consist of like 80% of all horde forces), but after that he would at least big threat to alliance. And i kinda find it hard to believe. Tho i guess thats just major darp on blizzard part, rather then insult to alliance players.

Its kind of the problem with the whole Horde vs. Alliance storyline in general. The Horde can only be stopped by its own infighting, the Alliance cant do it by themselves. Its how the Alliance won the 2nd war, and its how the Alliance going to 'win' now. If the Horde is so powerful, then why is the Alliance even still around? If the Alliance can fight fairly even with a unified Horde, they should have no problem fighting against a divided Horde in a civil war. Except now the Alliance still apparently needs help.

[Arrashi]

Why wouldn't the Alliance leaders let them kill one another, then mop up what's left.

Hell, that is something Vol'jin himself says he'd do. The weaker part of this war.

But, nope, the Alliance apparently can't figure that out.

Funniest thing is that alliance seems to support rebelion not to gain upper hand over horde and dictating position in any future negotiations. They do it so they can negotiate with more resonable person. This is most kind thing ever !!!
Varian - hey guys can you please leave ashenvale and leave it to night elves ?
Future warchief - No
Varian - /sadface OK......

[KrazyK923]

Its kind of the problem with the whole Horde vs. Alliance storyline in general. The Horde can only be stopped by its own infighting, the Alliance cant do it by themselves. Its how the Alliance won the 2nd war, and its how the Alliance going to 'win' now. If the Horde is so powerful, then why is the Alliance even still around? If the Alliance can fight fairly even with a unified Horde, they should have no problem fighting against a divided Horde in a civil war. Except now the Alliance still apparently needs help.

It's not based on logical storytelling. It's based on the fact that if the Alliance had the upperhand in a large storyline, we'd never hear the end of it.

But its the Alliance, so its ok.

Funniest thing is that alliance seems to support rebelion not to gain upper hand over horde and dictating position in any future negotiations. They do it so they can negotiate with more resonable person. This is most kind thing ever !!!
Varian - hey guys can you please leave ashenvale and leave it to night elves ?
Future warchief - No
Varian - /sadface OK......

This is also incredibly frustrating. Why can't the Alliance have a storyline where we weaken the Horde's hold in Ashenvale? Not only would that actually give us something to do, it makes actual sense.

[Florena]

Honestly I don't think the alliance motivation is lacking.


Scouts are sent to orgrimmar to scout out weaknesses. Don't really find any, but DO discover that the Darkspear are rebelling, but are outnumbered and out supplied. So they send you to give them aid. The Alliance gains much out of this.

Giving Vol'jin supplies allows his rebellion to stay on the offensive, killing more kor'kron at the expense of his own people dying as well. We're enabling the darkspear rebellion to continue and getting both sides to kill eachother even more without a drop of alliance blood being shed. (Outside of wpvp but that's not canon.)

The one thing I think is fairly objectively good about this new dialogue is that Vol'jin explicitly points out why it's in your best interest to help, even if you weren't convinced by Amber's plan. You give Vol'jin a few supply crates, he uses them to kill more Kor'kron. More dead Kor'kron means less alive Kor'kron when the Alliance lands. And Varian's letter at the end even suggests that the Darkspear will even help by causing trouble at Bladefist Bay, giving the Alliance a cleaner landing. Alliance lives are saved all around. The alliance gets a good payoff for minimal effort spent on it. It's a good deal for the Alliance.

[Solzan Nemesis]

Blaming Garrosh is way too easy, if you ask me. If a guy like him gets in charge of a superpower, I would have more reasons to blame the rest of the leaders, as well as the one/ones who put that guy in charge (Thrall).

Nay. Just easier to blame him and then forgot it ever happen.

[Tyrathius]

Vol'jin does need the Alliance more than we need him. It's his people being gathered up and executed en masse, not ours. His force is based on Orgrimmar's doorstep, not ours. Either he attacks Orgrimmar or Garrosh comes out and attacks him, but one way or another he's got to face him. The Alliance isn't in that position. None of our holdings are directly threatened by Garrosh. We can afford to wait if it benefits us. Vol'jin can't.

His initial response was snide and insulting to a legitimate question and should never have been implemented to begin with, but at least now we can call him out on how stupid it was.

[Deleted]

Story so far indicates that garrosh would not only be able to deal with rebelion (that keep in mind consist of like 80% of all horde forces),

Even though the majority of races are loyal to the rebellion they are still HEAVILY outnumbered by the Orcs.
Maybe Troll, Tauren, Blood Elf, Forsaken and Goblin make up about 20-40% of the Horde population, the Orcs make up the other 60-80%.

Especially given how the Orcs are now experimenting with all kinds of weapons, the rebellion could never win this alone.

[KrazyK923]

The one thing I think is fairly objectively good about this new dialogue is that Vol'jin explicitly points out why it's in your best interest to help, even if you weren't convinced by Amber's plan. You give Vol'jin a few supply crates, he uses them to kill more Kor'kron. More dead Kor'kron means less alive Kor'kron when the Alliance lands. And Varian's letter at the end even suggests that the Darkspear will even help by causing trouble at Bladefist Bay, giving the Alliance a cleaner landing. Alliance lives are saved all around. The alliance gets a good payoff for minimal effort spent on it. It's a good deal for the Alliance.

But why do we need to be allied with them to accomplish anything you've said? We wait for the Rebellion to begin, then come in and kill them all.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Its kind of the problem with the whole Horde vs. Alliance storyline in general. The Horde can only be stopped by its own infighting, the Alliance cant do it by themselves. Its how the Alliance won the 2nd war, and its how the Alliance going to 'win' now. If the Horde is so powerful, then why is the Alliance even still around? If the Alliance can fight fairly even with a unified Horde, they should have no problem fighting against a divided Horde in a civil war. Except now the Alliance still apparently needs help.

At least in the 2nd War there were good reasons why the Horde was able to do so. They pretty much had full control of the southern parts of Eastern Kingdoms with all its resources as well as them having the Blood Curse, Gul'dan's Warlocks/Death Knights, and allies like Forest Trolls to be able to push the Alliance of Lordaeron into a corner. Not to mention the strong leadership they had under Orgrim Doomhammer.

Though, that was then, and now is a completely different picture altogether. The Alliance simply is not the pushover they were as the Human Alliance. They have huge variety in their military thanks to the current Alliance where Night Elves, Draenei, Worgen, and even Pandaren are a part of their ranks. Whatever the Horde has, the Alliance should and can match it.

[Deleted]

To people who did this?

Yes, let your pride and lust for vengeance consume you. You have learned nothing of Pandaria. Good luck being consumed by the Sha just like Garrosh.

The Alliance can't have vengeance if they like to stay out of the whole Sha business.

[KrazyK923]

Yes, let your pride and lust for vengeance consume you. You have learned nothing of Pandaria. Good luck being consumed by the Sha just like Garrosh.

Ah, I see. We're expected to just forget the Horde nuked a major alliance city. Of course lol.

[Florena]

At least in the 2nd War there were good reasons why the Horde was able to do so. They pretty much had full control of the southern parts of Eastern Kingdoms with all its resources as well as them having the Blood Curse, Gul'dan's Warlocks/Death Knights, and allies like Forest Trolls to be able to push the Alliance of Lordaeron into a corner. Not to mention the strong leadership they had under Orgrim Doomhammer.

Though, that was then, and now is a completely different picture altogether. The Alliance simply is not the pushover they were as the Human Alliance. They have a huge variety thanks to the current Alliance where Night Elves, Draenei, Worgen, and even Pandaren are a part of their ranks. Whatever the Horde has, the Alliance should and can match it.

I always like to point out that, while it was Gul'dan's treachery that cost the orcs their victory, it was ALTERAC's treachery that allowed them to get to Lordaeron's capital so easily in the first place. Traitors on both sides greatly influenced the flow of the war.

[Deleted]

Yes, let your pride and lust for vengeance consume you. You have learned nothing of Pandaria. Good luck being consumed by the Sha just like Garrosh.

The Alliance can't have vengeance if they like to stay out of the whole Sha business.

Sha are indigenous to Pandaria. Also: really lame excuse

"Alliance has to be wiser and let go of their hatred or else they are the bad ones."

[Frozen Death Knight]

Yes, let your pride and lust for vengeance consume you. You have learned nothing of Pandaria. Good luck being consumed by the Sha just like Garrosh.

The Alliance can't have vengeance if they like to stay out of the whole Sha business.

Tell that to the Horde. They passed that line a long time ago.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 05:11 PM ----------

I always like to point out that, while it was Gul'dan's treachery that cost the orcs their victory, it was ALTERAC's treachery that allowed them to get to Lordaeron's capital so easily in the first place. Traitors on both sides greatly influenced the flow of the war.

Oh, I forgot to mention that part. Another good point as well.

[Florena]

It's not based on logical storytelling. It's based on the fact that if the Alliance had the upperhand in a large storyline, we'd never hear the end of it.

But its the Alliance, so its ok.



This is also incredibly frustrating. Why can't the Alliance have a storyline where we weaken the Horde's hold in Ashenvale? Not only would that actually give us something to do, it makes actual sense.

While a story in Ashenvale would be good, the story in Durotar DOES make sense, even if Vol'jin's one comment is a bit much and the alliance content is lacking, the story of backing the rebels so they can continue fighting Garrosh makes perfect sense. And if they had the two sides in different zones, sewing the seeds of both sides working together would be much harder.

[Deathgoose]

The reason Alliance players were a little upset about the first one was because it with the way it was presented, the Alliance player was essentially being railroaded into a poorly phrased question that was nothing more than a setup for a big slam dunk by Vol'jin to make him look super cool and bad-ass.

Especially when the Alliance player's only option at that point was "Please, sir, can I have another?" and completely ignoring the fact that they could just let the rebellion fight the loyalists first, get crushed while thinning Garrosh's numbers a bit, then go in.

It made the Alliance player look foolish, blustery, and without any rebuttal, spineless. At least now the foolish & blustery part is shared a bit more evenly, and both sides can see that cooperation is better for their own side over going in alone.

[Phuongvi]

Good to remind him that he needs us more than we need him. A little sad that people had to remind blizzard but oh well.

I hope another major alliance city will get bomb by Garrosh , just to remind Alliance about Theramore

[Deleted]

I'll just come out of the gate and say to the people who are going to respond "But that was Garrosh" to your comment:

No, Vol'jin, Baine, and Lor'themar could have stopped this easily. None of them did. None of them cared enough to stop Garrosh. They might have felt bad about it, but apparently not enough to do anything.

Baine is the only one who gets a break from Theramore imo. He at least warned Jaina.

EDIT: Hahahaha, somebody already beat me to it while I made my comment.

What unforgivable crime did Lor'themar and Vol'jin commit at Theramore? even Kosak said it was a perfectly legitimate target, and there's nothing to suggest either of them knew about the nuke.

OT, this is good. It wouldnt be needed in the first place if Vol'jin just admitted he needs us, but whatever.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Nay. Just easier to blame him and then forgot it ever happen.

The Horde as a whole is responsible for the actions of their own faction. If Garrosh is doing stuff that the others don't approve of, then they still are responsible if they don't try to distant themselves from such decisions. If the Horde would be put on war trial then you could guarantee that they would be considered Garrosh's accomplishes, even if the Alliance was not responsible for the whole trial.

[Arrashi]

Even though the majority of races are loyal to the rebellion they are still HEAVILY outnumbered by the Orcs.
Maybe Troll, Tauren, Blood Elf, Forsaken and Goblin make up about 20-40% of the Horde population, the Orcs make up the other 60-80%.

Especially given how the Orcs are now experimenting with all kinds of weapons, the rebellion could never win this alone.

I heavily doubt orcs represent 60-80% of horde. 20-30 would be most they could ever hope for. Add the fact that frostwolves dont approve garrosh ways and they are probably second biggest after warsong group in horde. Also majority of mag'har either arent warriors or stayed in outland. Dragonmaw can't spare too many forces as they would loose twillight highlands to dwarves. So yeah garrosh forces are pretty limited. Unless he pull off gul'dans age-altering magic and start manufacturing orcs.