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  1. #81
    End of expansion = Siege of Orgrimmar

    They said she may be seen before the end of the expansion, right? That means she might appear in 5.3, maybe.

  2. #82
    Brewmaster dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Sylvanas deserves more lore? I don't know what you're on, but the only lore she deserves at the moment is the Argent Crusade to come knocking on their door and the Ashen Verdict to come and free one of the heads of the faction from the Evil lady's torturous grip.

    I mean seriously, she got a lore overload wotlk and cata, where is Velen's lore?
    Yeah! All them Filthy Alliance need some Lore Too! > <

  3. #83
    Sylvanas is just going to wait till the end of the siege, then Blight-bomb everyone and turn them into Forsaken.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  4. #84
    She doesn't really need personal development here, the Horde already has so much going on adding more would risk not being able to pay it all off in 5.4. Sure, having an appearance at the siege would be nice, but she doesn't need to play a role beyond sending forsaken to help the rebellion.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Sylvanas and her forsaken had a lot of lore developed during WotlK and Cataclysm. I dont see any reason why they should get even more development, while Gnomes, Worgen and Draenei have no lore developed to speak of.
    The only lore that was developed for the Forsaken in general was quests up till halfway through the leveling process in Northrend and a handful of zones that already belonged to them in Cata, which was necessary due to the update that they made. Sylvanas got a bit of lore in the ICC patch and in a short story, which were made for all leaders.

    So that's a couple quest hubs and the ICC 5 mans in Northrend that were shared with Jaina, a handful of zones in Cata where they were relevant that weren't done electively, they were done out of necessity (read: they were revamping all the 1-60 zones do they had to revamp those), and a faction leader short story, part of a series involving every other faction leader.

    She's also a Horde faction leader. It's kinda important that we get some info on her opinions of this political dissonance. She's part of the Horde too. It's not about "fair progression of lore for everyone." It's about "relevant progression of lore for everyone who could be involved in this arc." A good writer would make arcs that cater to the latter, but it's not always possible.

  6. #86
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    The only lore that was developed for the Forsaken in general was quests up till halfway through the leveling process in Northrend and a handful of zones that already belonged to them in Cata, which was necessary due to the update that they made. Sylvanas got a bit of lore in the ICC patch and in a short story, which were made for all leaders.

    So that's a couple quest hubs and the ICC 5 mans in Northrend that were shared with Jaina, a handful of zones in Cata where they were relevant that weren't done electively, they were done out of necessity (read: they were revamping all the 1-60 zones do they had to revamp those), and a faction leader short story, part of a series involving every other faction leader.

    She's also a Horde faction leader. It's kinda important that we get some info on her opinions of this political dissonance. She's part of the Horde too. It's not about "fair progression of lore for everyone." It's about "relevant progression of lore for everyone who could be involved in this arc." A good writer would make arcs that cater to the latter, but it's not always possible.
    Yea, the "only" lore. Compared to that the Worgen, gnomes, and Draenei COMBINED haven't had such overhauls. Well, we can skip the worgen, since they are a new race, but even they only got 1 zone for themselves and had to share everything else with the night elves. You speak like all the overhaus they got up till now are not even something worth mentioning. Wich is wrong. A Lot.

    Yea, she may make a minor appearance, but i don't want to see her face again after all this attention she got. It just wouldnt be fair to other, undevelopped races.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    The only lore that was developed for the Forsaken in general was quests up till halfway through the leveling process in Northrend and a handful of zones that already belonged to them in Cata, which was necessary due to the update that they made. Sylvanas got a bit of lore in the ICC patch and in a short story, which were made for all leaders.
    You speak as if this isn't a lot, but it's far more than most races in the game get. The Tirisfal/Silverpine/Hillsbrad revamp was HUGE for the Forsaken. It advanced their plot in a massive way, while many other zone revamps didn't really do much. As the person above me stated, the Forsaken have seen more development than almost all Alliance races.

  8. #88
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Hqven't we had enough Horde characters already? Lor'themar, Garrosh, Vol'jin. How about instead of focusing on even more Horde characters, they spend some time on Gelbin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen, Moira, Muradin, Falstad, Genn - nothing at all about them.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by jealouspirate View Post
    You speak as if this isn't a lot, but it's far more than most races in the game get. The Tirisfal/Silverpine/Hillsbrad revamp was HUGE for the Forsaken. It advanced their plot in a massive way, while many other zone revamps didn't really do much. As the person above me stated, the Forsaken have seen more development than almost all Alliance races.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Yea, the "only" lore. Compared to that the Worgen, gnomes, and Draenei COMBINED haven't had such overhauls. Well, we can skip the worgen, since they are a new race, but even they only got 1 zone for themselves and had to share everything else with the night elves. You speak like all the overhaus they got up till now are not even something worth mentioning. Wich is wrong. A Lot.

    Yea, she may make a minor appearance, but i don't want to see her face again after all this attention she got. It just wouldnt be fair to other, undevelopped races.
    The only lore that was pretty exclusive to the Forsaken was the Northrend bits, because they were relevant to the theme of that expansion. The other overhauls they received were not exclusive to them. Worgen received a large amount of lore concerning them in their starting zone and the gnomes got a good amount in their starting area as well as in the late days of Wrath with their "retake gnomeregan" bit. The Draenei, like the blood elves, are rather isolationist, as seen by the Velen short story. They're allied to the Alliance. That's about it. They don't even care about what happened after the Cataclysm as it is a tiny problem compared to their real challenge.

    Did the worgen, gnomes, and draenei have a lot to do with Northrend and the Scourge?

    Do they have a lot to do with the inner-horde conflict?

    Once again, advancing the story is not about "fair progression of lore for everyone." It's about "relevant progression of lore for everyone who could be involved in this arc."
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-04-21 at 04:31 PM.

  10. #90
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Did the worgen, gnomes, and draenei have a lot to do with Northrend and the Scourge?

    Do they have a lot to do with the inner-horde conflict?

    Once again, advancing the story is not about "fair progression of lore for everyone." It's about "relevant progression of lore for everyone who could be involved in this arc."
    Well the Worgen were there in Northrend, so... So were the Gnomes when they discovered they used to be Mechagnomes.

    Do they have to do with the inner-horde conflict? That is not the question to be asked, the question should be, is there something they can be involved in. Velen could've been traveling to Pandaria alongside Anduin for example. Genn and the Worgen could've aided the Alliance in Pandaria in some way. Generally there should've been more Alliance vs. Horde on Pandaria.

    The Worgen and the Night Elves could for example come from Ashenvale and push into Azshara.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2013-04-21 at 04:29 PM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Well the Worgen were there in Northrend, so... So were the Gnomes when they discovered they used to be Mechagnomes.
    The fact that they were just makes my point even more potent. Advances in faction/racial lore are done based on whether they could be a part of that arc. The Forsaken got a lot more lore in Northrend because they were much more invested in Northrend than many (if not all) of the other races in WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Do they have to do with the inner-horde conflict? That is not the question to be asked, the question should be, is there something they can be involved in. Velen could've been traveling to Pandaria alongside Anduin for example. Genn and the Worgen could've aided the Alliance in Pandaria in some way. Generally there should've been more Alliance vs. Horde on Pandaria.

    The Worgen and the Night Elves could for example come from Ashenvale and push into Azshara.
    The patch right now is focused on the Horde's rebel group and the atrocities that Garrosh has been inflicting on the populace; essentially a prelude to the next raid. That's why I asked that question. How can they fit into that? The Azshara invasion is a way, but it would threaten to tear away the focus of the arc unless it wasn't implemented as a thing you could participate in as a player and even then it would divide the focus.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-04-21 at 04:47 PM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Sylvanas deserves more lore? I don't know what you're on, but the only lore she deserves at the moment is the Argent Crusade to come knocking on their door and the Ashen Verdict to come and free one of the heads of the faction from the Evil lady's torturous grip.

    I mean seriously, she got a lore overload wotlk and cata, where is Velen's lore?
    Don't act like WoW Lore makes sense. We are but at the whims of the raid/instance development teams.

    See: Neptulon!
    He was captured by Ozumat (giant octopus) in that abyssal Maw instance and we still haven't heard from him. (I know that Koltira has been captured longer, but he is not as important as Neptulon, elemental lord)
    And to make matters worse than ignoring him, the ending sequence of Cataclysm has Thrall stating: "I can feel the elements awakening,......rejoicing"
    Signature infractions suck especially when they are just about the size of TEXT! WTB token limit!

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    The only lore that was pretty exclusive to the Forsaken was the Northrend bits, because they were relevant to the theme of that expansion. The other overhauls they received were not exclusive to them. Worgen received a large amount of lore concerning them in their starting zone and the gnomes got a good amount in their starting area as well as in the late days of Wrath with their "retake gnomeregan" bit. The Draenei, like the blood elves, are rather isolationist, as seen by the Velen short story. They're allied to the Alliance. That's about it. They don't even care about what happened after the Cataclysm as it is a tiny problem compared to their real challenge.
    I just don't follow this at all. You don't count Tirisfal, Silverpine and Hillsbrad because it's "not exclusive"? What does that mean? It advanced the FORSAKEN plot is very significant ways.

    The Gnomes haven't had ANY plot advancement. In Vanilla they were trying to remake Gnomer... at the end of Wrath they tried and failed, in their new starting zone they did nothing. The plot is literally in the exact same place as it was in Vanilla, while the Forsaken are in a completely different place. And just calling the Draenei isolationist is very unsatisfying for Draenei players, they should get a plot too.

    I just disagree with everything you're saying.... races should get relatively equal lore progression. If the context doesn't fit then Blizzard should be changing the context, and everyone should get their turn. Forsaken had their turn in WotLK and Cata, now it's other people's turn.

  14. #94
    There should be lore about every faction leader every expansion, because that helps include our characters in the story.
    "Please find my dear friends.
    Dead or Alive" -redmakoto

  15. #95
    She kind of had her shine back in Wrath of the Lich King for obvious reasons of her back history being so closely tied to Arthas. Love the "chase scene" between her and the Lich King in the Halls of Reflection, which still stands as one of my favorite instances/moments from WoTLK.

    That's why they put her on the backburner a little bit for Cata and Pandaria, although don't think she's forgotten Garrosh calling her a bitch. Women never forget that stuff, haha.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by jealouspirate View Post
    I just don't follow this at all. You don't count Tirisfal, Silverpine and Hillsbrad because it's "not exclusive"? What does that mean? It advanced the FORSAKEN plot is very significant ways.
    It isn't exclusive because it had advancement for the worgen, the val'kyr, the Frostwolves, garrosh, and a couple other groups / people, and because the changes made to the world weren't exclusive to those zones alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by jealouspirate View Post
    The Gnomes haven't had ANY plot advancement. In Vanilla they were trying to remake Gnomer... at the end of Wrath they tried and failed, in their new starting zone they did nothing. The plot is literally in the exact same place as it was in Vanilla, while the Forsaken are in a completely different place. And just calling the Draenei isolationist is very unsatisfying for Draenei players, they should get a plot too.
    "Just prior to the Cataclysm, the gnomes’ leader, High Tinker Gelbin Mekkatorque, led an attack on Gnomeregan’s invaders. It was a successful first maneuver, but there will be much more bloodshed before the entirety of the gnomeland is liberated. In the ongoing effort to reclaim Gnomeregan from Sicco Thermaplugg and his twisted cohorts, the gnomes have carved out a tenuous foothold in New Tinkertown, near the techno-city’s gates."

    Sounds like they got some.

    As for calling the draenei isolationist, it's rather true. It's dissapointing that the plot hasn't had much room for them, but that is how the cookie crumbles. If we get a legion expansion soon, then there'll be plenty of opportunity to give them loads of lore. That's their niche.

    Quote Originally Posted by jealouspirate View Post
    I just disagree with everything you're saying.... races should get relatively equal lore progression. If the context doesn't fit then Blizzard should be changing the context, and everyone should get their turn. Forsaken had their turn in WotLK and Cata, now it's other people's turn.
    I'd rather suffer through less draenei lore for a plot that is focused on the plot, rather than fair representation. When you focus on fair representation you are stressing your writing team to make plots that are less than cohesive as a whole and it tends to show. It's like when writers write for other people, not themselves. While they are trying to make a profit, when they write due to external pressures, their work tends to lose quality and it loses its artfulness.

    The arts of writing and storytelling aren't democratic. They aren't there to serve as the tool of the people. People can say what they'd like to see, but that shouldn't force the writer to accommodate every request. They should keep those requests in mind when advancing their plot so if they turn out to be relevant they can be implemented, but ultimately writing is not a service industry.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-04-21 at 05:11 PM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    So, I just read this on the front page.
    "We may see some of Sylvanas before the end of the expansion, but no promises."
    Now, I saw this and I immediately did a double take. I mean seriously? What could they be thinking by Not including Sylvanas in some form? Throughout the silverpine forest quest line, it is made VERY clear that she and garrosh do not agree. It is also evident how at odds these two are by the fact that his Korkron solders are posted now through the undercity to keep an eye on her actions. He blames the wrathgate on her.

    Now, they may just be covering up, or they may honestly be stupid enough not to use such a huge story changer. Im not sure which. However, what do you all think of their plans to possibly not add any story for Sylvanas, despite how much of a volatile combination these two are if they were to be let lose on one another. I believe Sylvanas would revel in such an undertaking that she would jump at any chance to strike down garosh. Even if it is purely out of spite.
    A lot of that is old stuff. That was brought in when Cata hit. Yes, Sylvanas and Garrosh hate one another, but there are other leaders that should get the spotlight.


    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith
    I mean seriously, she got a lore overload wotlk and cata, where is Velen's lore?
    Here is one of the other leaders that needs to get the spotlight.

    Alot of old stuff from Cata is not really that important in Mist. Yes, some can be taken that way as, "Oh, they aren't doing this, or Oh, that's going to be in Mist." Doubtful, but I would like to see Vol'jin let the alliance try its hand at Garrosh then give the dead to Sylvanas, it would teach those weaklings that they are not as strong as they think they are. (I'm normally horde and now playing alliance. Don't judge me. Alliance still sucks in my opinion.)

  18. #98
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Agreed! Worgen could've been so much better, their city and introduction story line was pretty bad ass, but once again Blizzard let slip of it. Dranenei are just horrific, and Gnomes got love in Cataclysm.
    IMHO i think the Worgen can still get more lore, even more because Gilneas is in war, so Blizzard could use that conflict to give them more lore

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    It isn't exclusive because it had advancement for the worgen, the val'kyr, the Frostwolves, garrosh, and a couple other groups / people, and because the changes made to the world weren't exclusive to those zones alone.
    Okay.... so why does it need to be exclusive? I just still don't understand this. You're saying that for Forsaken lore to "count" it can only involve Forsaken characters, and no other areas can get updates? Why?

    That whole story arc is about the rise of the new Forsaken. They're a huge military power now, and they launch an attack on Gilneas. You get to see how they interact with the rest of the Horde races, what their plans are after the death of Arthas, how they plan to procreate... you get to personally quest alongside a fully-voiced Sylvanas Windrunner. You see them take new territory in Hillsbrad and advance the plot that's been there since Vanilla. Seriously, if that doesn't count as Forsaken lore development, nothing does.

  20. #100
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    The fact that they were just makes my point even more potent. Advances in faction/racial lore are done based on whether they could be a part of that arc. The Forsaken got a lot more lore in Northrend because they were much more invested in Northrend than many (if not all) of the other races in WoW.



    The patch right now is focused on the Horde's rebel group and the atrocities that Garrosh has been inflicting on the populace; essentially a prelude to the next raid. That's why I asked that question. How can they fit into that? The Azshara invasion is a way, but it would threaten to tear away the focus of the arc unless it wasn't implemented as a thing you could participate in as a player and even then it would divide the focus.
    I don't even know why you bring up the Worgen in the first place, they weren't even in the Alliance when WotLK came out. Of course faction/racial lore should fit in with the theme of the expansion, are you telling me that there is nothing for those characters and races to do? When they design an expansion, they make up stuff like zones, races and lore. Why are there Gnomes in Blade's Edge? Is there something inherently gnomish about that zone? Is there something you can't do on a continent like Pandaria? No. They made that whole story up.

    The whole thing with Ulduar and Mechagnomes was invented when they made that expansion. There wasn't anything in the Scourge theme that suggested that Mechagnomes had to be invented. They made it up so they could do something with Gnomes. If they can fit in Gnomes into a Scourge expansion, why is there no room for let's say the Draenei. Sure there were some Draenei present there, but there was no Draenei storyline like the Gnomes finding out about Mechagnomes and the Curse of Flesh.

    Of course they can fit more different races into the content and have it make sense. There is enough room for Night Elven and Worgen involvement on the Alliance side in patch 5.3. You can still have the Horde side of the quests deal with their internal problems.

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