Page 1 of 5
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Death Knight 6.0 - The Proposed Redesign

    http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=518001

    The Death Knight class has a few problems. There has been far too many hotfixes and bandaid adjustments made over the years. They have taken their toll on the class. We need to take a look at the core mechanics of the class and make changes that are practical and sensical while also fleshing out the theme of Death Knights in general. I would love any feedback you may have regarding the following proposed changes:

    It is my opinion that we need to redefine the purpose and function of Death Runes. The idea is for each spec to have access to 2 permanent Death Runes to compliment 4 spec-specific runes. Blood spec would have access to DD-BB-BB. Frost would be DD-FF-FF. And Unholy would be DD-UU-UU. But.....Death Runes would only be usable with specific abilities that cost Death Runes. Furthermore, these 'Death Rune abilities' would be the only abilities that are shared across all three specs.

    This all accomplishes quite a few things. Death Rune availability would be consistent across all specs. The usage of Death Rune abilities would flow much better. They would now play nice with our other spec-specific abilities. The clunky rune problems of Unholy would be remedied. 2H Frost would finally jive with Soul Reaper. And the general whack-a-mole feel of Frost would be improved. Furthermore, this change to Death Runes allows us to tweak our Rune Regeneration talents in the grid for a more successful model of choice. Although Runic Conversion would be a very PvP centric choice, RE and Runic Corruption would be equally competitive for PvE, allowing two distinctly different game styles. And that's because we would no longer be able to game runes. Below is an example of how our current abilities would fit with the new system.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BLOOD --- (DD-BB-BB)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1 Blood Rune - Blood Strike - (Applies Blood Plague)
    1 Blood Rune - Heart Strike - (Blood Shield Mechanic) (Self-Healing Mechanic)
    1 Blood Rune - Blood Tap - (1 minute cooldown, X% heal)
    1 Blood Rune - Dancing Rune Weapon

    20 Runic Power - Rune Strike
    20 Runic Power - Blood Boil - (AOE + Spreads Blood Plague)

    1 Death Rune - Death Strike - (Single target strike) (Shadowfrost Damage) (No longer heals)
    1 Death Rune - Shadow Cleave - (3 Target Cleave) (Shadowfrost Damage)
    1 Death Rune - Death and Decay
    1 Death Rune - Necrotic Strike
    1 Death Rune - Soul Reaper - (Delayed damage would activate after 3 seconds instead of 5) (25% less damage, but changed to Shadowfrost)
    1 Death Rune - Army of the Dead - (Channel time reduced significantly)


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FROST --- (DD-FF-FF)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1 Frost Rune - Icy Touch - (Applies Frost Fever) (Procs Rime)
    1 Frost Rune - Howling Blast - (Applies Frost Fever)
    1 Frost Rune - Pillar of Frost

    25 Runic Power - Obliterate - (Only ability that works with and consumes Killing Machine)
    Rime - Frost Strike - (Only ability that works with and consumes Rime)

    1 Death Rune - Death Strike - (Single target strike) (Shadowfrost Damage) (No longer heals)
    1 Death Rune - Shadow Cleave - (3 Target Cleave) (Shadowfrost Damage)
    1 Death Rune - Death and Decay
    1 Death Rune - Necrotic Strike
    1 Death Rune - Soul Reaper - (Delayed damage would activate after 3 seconds instead of 5) (25% less damage, but changed to Shadowfrost)
    1 Death Rune - Army of the Dead - (Channel time reduced significantly)


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    UNHOLY --- (DD-UU-UU)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1 Unholy Rune - Outbreak - (Applies Crypt Fever)
    1 Unholy Rune - Scourge Strike
    1 Unholy Rune - Pestilence - (Spreads Crypt Fever and activates Wandering Plague)
    1 Unholy Rune - Dark Transformation - (30 second cooldown, 15 second duration) (SI damage built into DT)

    30 Runic Power - Death Coil

    1 Death Rune - Death Strike - (Single target strike) (Shadowfrost Damage) (No longer heals)
    1 Death Rune - Shadow Cleave - (3 Target Cleave) (Shadowfrost Damage)
    1 Death Rune - Death and Decay
    1 Death Rune - Necrotic Strike
    1 Death Rune - Soul Reaper - (Delayed damage would activate after 3 seconds instead of 5) (25% less damage, but changed to Shadowfrost)
    1 Death Rune - Army of the Dead - (Channel time reduced significantly)


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    NOTES:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We need more Death in Death Knight!

    Death Runes would only be usable with abilities that cost a Death Rune. Our cross-spec utility abilities fall into this category.

    For PvE, the idea is that all specs would use Death Strike regularly on single targets until in execute range when you switch to Soul Reaper. For multiple targets, Shadow Cleave and DnD would be the way to go.

    For PvP, there are lots of choices to make depending on the situation. The fact that we would always have Death Runes regenerating to spend solely on our utility abilities makes that choice more fun and interactive.

    Blood would only have access to Blood Plague and Frost would only have access to Frost Fever. Unholy would use a new disease tentatively called Crypt Fever.

    Unholy's AOE would be just their disease + Wandering Plague and DnD.

    Blood Strike would now apply Blood Plague. Plague Strike would be removed from the game as it would no longer be needed.

    Only Frost would have access to Icy Touch; Therefore, the Glyph of Icy Touch would be removed from the game for balance reasons.

    The talent Chilblains would be removed from the game. A new glyph would be implemented (Glyph of Disease?); This new glyph would cause any target affected by our diseases to be slowed by 50%.

    Chains of Ice would be moved into the talent grid as a Root ability for Frost. Blood and Unholy would have their own version within the same talent choice. This way all specs would have the choice of a root ability that works within their own rune setup.

    Heart Strike would function just like the current Death Strike ability works for Blood.

    Lichborne would no longer work as a self-healing mechanic.

    Purgatory would be baseline for Blood spec. Gorefiend's Grasp would also be given to Blood spec as a baseline ability.

    Raid cooldown in the form of AMZ, but on the same tier as Bone Shield.

    With the proposed ease of applying diseases, I would suggest lowering the duration of our diseases back down to 20 seconds.

    Horn of Winter would no longer grant Runic Power. We are Death Knights. Not Bards. Fire and forget for 5 minutes.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is a very rough and generalized idea of how our ability damage might break down with some Mastery:


    Blood:
    Soul Reaper - 100
    Heart Strike - 70
    Rune Strike - 50
    Death Strike - 40
    Blood Boil - 40
    Shadow Cleave - 30
    Blood Strike - 30
    Necrotic Strike - 30



    Frost:
    Soul Reaper - 116
    Obliterate - 100
    Frost Strike - 76
    Icy Touch - 56
    Howling Blast - 56
    Death Strike - 56
    Shadow Cleave - 46
    Necrotic Strike - 30



    Unholy:
    Soul Reaper - 120
    Scourge Strike - 70
    Death Strike - 60
    Death Coil - 50
    Shadow Cleave - 50
    Necrotic Strike - 30

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    EDIT:
    1. Adjusted the RP cost of some of our abilities. Work in Progress.
    2. Changed the abilities Death Strike, Death Siphon, and added the ability Shadow Cleave.
    3. Final tier of talents changed.
    4. Frost's abilities changed.
    Last edited by Clash1; 2013-05-01 at 06:48 AM.

  2. #2
    By removing the self heal from DS, that basically removes the ability to tank. Unless you had an idea how to rework blood spec. Interesting ideas though.

  3. #3
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Posts
    176
    Intresting idea, but in the end it's more of a, blood gets abilities a b c and d, frost gets abilities a b c and d, but they just have different names and ability c does X for blood and Y for frost... Sorry, but it gets far more boring that the acutual talents/skills at this moment imo.

    Make the specs feel different, one disease more for unholy isn't gonna bring the feels...

    and "Simplifying our rotation and bypassing our mechanics should come at a large cost and should be designed against."... yes and no. of course it would be wrong to only spam 1 ability and top meters (warlocks in tbc say hi), but I wouldn't be unhappy about two different styles of execution, eg. something like festerblight
    What doesn't kill me gives me Vengeance.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...psody/advanced

    DK Guide to LK 25 Heroic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixa6Tyqd-oY

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalostyle View Post
    By removing the self heal from DS, that basically removes the ability to tank. Unless you had an idea how to rework blood spec. Interesting ideas though.
    If you read the notes section, I mention that Death Strike and Heart Strike are basically being switched in function for all intents and purposes. So tanking would be intact.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rhapso View Post
    Intresting idea, but in the end it's more of a, blood gets abilities a b c and d, frost gets abilities a b c and d, but they just have different names and ability c does X for blood and Y for frost... Sorry, but it gets far more boring that the acutual talents/skills at this moment imo.

    Make the specs feel different, one disease more for unholy isn't gonna bring the feels...

    and "Simplifying our rotation and bypassing our mechanics should come at a large cost and should be designed against."... yes and no. of course it would be wrong to only spam 1 ability and top meters (warlocks in tbc say hi), but I wouldn't be unhappy about two different styles of execution, eg. something like festerblight
    I understand your concern that the abilities look very similar from the outside. That's just because things are organized in such a manner that everything is visually recognizable. What matters most is how we are using those abilities. And that remains very similar to what we do right now. The added component is the regular use of Death Rune abilities within our "rotations".

  5. #5
    I just want to old 2h frost back. I hate the new 1-button and overly focus on Obliterate 2h frost.

  6. #6
    I really like your last talent tier, it should probably be earlier in the grid though.

    EDIT: Perhaps add increased damage of RP abilities to DW and increased damage of strikes to 2h.

    It's honestly the only thing I like about your proposed redesign though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I just want to old 2h frost back. I hate the new 1-button and overly focus on Obliterate 2h frost.
    You just want there to be less damage difference between frost and oblit? Otherwise plays pmuch the same.
    Last edited by Erishkigal; 2013-04-20 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Add more stuff

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    In Pandaria Freezing Pandas
    Posts
    406
    No, just no.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Erishkigal View Post
    I really like your last talent tier, it should probably be earlier in the grid though.

    EDIT: Perhaps add increased damage of RP abilities to DW and increased damage of strikes to 2h.

    It's honestly the only thing I like about your proposed redesign though.



    You just want there to be less damage difference between frost and oblit? Otherwise plays pmuch the same.
    I want less penalty for using anything else then Obliterate as 2h. Basicly a weaker Obliterate (280% weapon damage), stronger Frost Strike (160% weapon damage) and stronger Howling Blast main target damage. Means it will be more like in Cata, and more like DW is now. A balance of many different abilities, not just one!
    Also more focus on Frost Strike. Frost should be about FROST and runic power as it always used to. Blood and unholy are the rune-specs. Frost should once again be the runic power spec. DW frost is like this now, obly Obliterate sucks. Obliterate should be good for DW as well. I want 2h and DW to play the same way again, like i mentioned above (less Obliterate focus for 2h, more Obliterate for DW. Frost Strike = main-damage source)

    I used to love 2h frost in pvp, but that changed in MoP. Now i hate it.

    (PvP)
    Last edited by Wrien; 2013-04-20 at 04:10 PM.

  9. #9
    Horn of Winter would no longer grant Runic Power. We are Death Knights. Not Bards. Fire and forget for 5 minutes.
    I chuckled. Honestly, I wouldn't mind a complete mix up of the class like this. The rune mechanic change from Wrath was the most radical thing they did besides the talent tree merger.

  10. #10
    I do like the inclusion of more RP cost abilities.

    I think, as a resource system, it's severely under represented since it's used for only 1 real ability/ spec.

  11. #11
    Saying that DKs have had numerous changes and hotfixes over the years simply isn't true. Blood and Frost are still using the exact same rotational abilities they used in ICC. All Unholy had added was Festering Strike.

    Other classes have had multiple rotational abilities added and have COMPLETELY changed since their inception. Death Knight has been one of the most, if not the most stable class since it's introduction.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    Saying that DKs have had numerous changes and hotfixes over the years simply isn't true. Blood and Frost are still using the exact same rotational abilities they used in ICC. All Unholy had added was Festering Strike.

    Other classes have had multiple rotational abilities added and have COMPLETELY changed since their inception. Death Knight has been one of the most, if not the most stable class since it's introduction.
    The only similarities between DKs now and then are some spell names and the fact that we do use a similar rune system. The rotations were completely different and the feel of each spec was completely different. I remember using Pestilence to roll diseases with Frost back in ICC. Scourge Strike still cost two runes at that point. All three specs play completely different now. Back then we didn't have 5 ways to apply diseases. It was only Icy Touch and Plague Strike. I could go on and on.

    Most of our problems are due to the abrupt changes made during Cata Beta. They may have tried to fix Unholy with RC and Frost with permanent Death Runes, but there were a lot of other things that needed to be adjusted with the addition of Runic Empowerment. Unholy just recently had the big QoL change to Plague Strike. That was a type of change that was needed 3 years ago. And that is just a bandaid that doesn't cover the other problems specific to Unholy and their runes.

    We need change and it starts at the core of the class.

  13. #13
    i would go with all except for the Death Strike heal removal .. what's wrong with that?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by valax View Post
    i would go with all except for the Death Strike heal removal .. what's wrong with that?
    That would be included with Heart Strike and the Blood Shield mechanic. I will update the OP to make that more clear.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    That would be included with Heart Strike and the Blood Shield mechanic. I will update the OP to make that more clear.
    So they are making it only a threat burst spell ?
    EDIT: it looks like they only swapped names of DS and HS O.o (as for blood)
    Last edited by valax; 2013-04-20 at 09:44 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    The only similarities between DKs now and then are some spell names and the fact that we do use a similar rune system. The rotations were completely different and the feel of each spec was completely different. I remember using Pestilence to roll diseases with Frost back in ICC. Scourge Strike still cost two runes at that point. All three specs play completely different now. Back then we didn't have 5 ways to apply diseases. It was only Icy Touch and Plague Strike. I could go on and on.

    Most of our problems are due to the abrupt changes made during Cata Beta. They may have tried to fix Unholy with RC and Frost with permanent Death Runes, but there were a lot of other things that needed to be adjusted with the addition of Runic Empowerment. Unholy just recently had the big QoL change to Plague Strike. That was a type of change that was needed 3 years ago. And that is just a bandaid that doesn't cover the other problems specific to Unholy and their runes.

    We need change and it starts at the core of the class.
    Saying Scourge Strike it's different because the rune cost was change is like saying Fireball is different because the mana cost changed.

  17. #17
    Saying Scourge Strike it's different because the rune cost was change is like saying Fireball is different because the mana cost changed.
    Ya if your mana only works with fireball and cost half your mana to cast one and then your mana regens to full every 8 seconds then ya you could say that ...idiot ;p

  18. #18
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Posts
    176
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    I understand your concern that the abilities look very similar from the outside. That's just because things are organized in such a manner that everything is visually recognizable. What matters most is how we are using those abilities. And that remains very similar to what we do right now. The added component is the regular use of Death Rune abilities within our "rotations".
    Yes and no, mainly you trivialize the current rune model by a huge margin. only having 2 kind of runes would make it rather boring:
    overall:
    As I stated above, the whole model is just boring and the same for everyone: you took the spec-specific runes and put every spec-specific hit on those runes + RP and for death runes you give every spec the same toolkit. This is boring. When switching between specs I like to priorize runes differently, U/F pairs are like gods for me when tanking, but I don't even look out for them as frost/unholy. Having the same things with just different names, they are different specs!
    blood:
    Blood Tap and Heart Strike (DS) on the same rune means there will always be one that gets neglected. If Blood Tap is too strong, it would mess with the whole selfheal of DKs, esp. with added deathsiphons every 8secs or so and you double the amount of HS (DS) per minute... And if you look closely over the whole abilities, you add so much additional healing blizzard would need to nerf every ability by 40-60% from the current model or it would get out of hand.
    I would let the current rune model, it's ok to min-max 5 resources (or 6 if you count time): B / F / U / D runes and RP (+time). You would bring that down to B / D runes + RP, so not even half the choices. It's quite boring as it is right now, I would most likely switch if they dumb it down this much.
    frost:
    what's the whole hussle with death runes, they look rather "constructed". Death Strike isn't an ability for frost cleave damage, HB is. The choice between IT and HB would be intresting, IT for ST and HB for multiple targets.
    As I stated above, you had a strange sense of putting abilities on the same rune. IT/HB/PoF on the same rune, I get it. but why should you add FS as well, not use the Death runes at all and put OB on RP? why not have OBs use D/F pairs and FS back on RP, but add let's say SR + DnD on RP as well?
    Also: Ice Blast already feels clunky, what if you need to refresh diseases and you get a proc? /cancelaura Rime /cast Icy Touch?
    unholy:
    Still 20RP for the runic power dum(b)p? boring.
    why does every ability have to be on unholy runes? for unholy, it seems just an empty energy bar would have sufficed as well. why not something like SR for multitarget, increased by damage, the old wandering plague (maybe with a SR-mechanic, spreads diseases and lets them explode SR-ish after (randomly) 2-8 seconds?)

    I think it's a pity, you seem to have put a lot of effort in making those new models but in the middle you got bored and just wanted to finish it?
    What doesn't kill me gives me Vengeance.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...psody/advanced

    DK Guide to LK 25 Heroic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixa6Tyqd-oY

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I just want to old 2h frost back. I hate the new 1-button and overly focus on Obliterate 2h frost.
    I still miss Blood from WotLK. The dps was sucky but damn it, I really enjoyed the spec.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobysnacks View Post
    I still miss Blood from WotLK. The dps was sucky but damn it, I really enjoyed the spec.
    That's what Unholy is for. The current Unholy rotation is, essentially, Wrath-era Blood's rotation, just with Heart Strike replaced with Scourge Strike and Death Strike replaced with Festering Strike. Aside from the ghoul, it is otherwise identical.

    Anyway, the class is perfectly fine. We don't need Ret-style change for the sake of change. It warms my heart to look at patch notes and not see Death Knight changes, because it means we don't need changes. We are... the perfect class.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •