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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    Having to use Icy Touch to generate Death Runes so that you can use your AOE ability......is clunky. It's also a disgrace to game design.
    Hyperbole. Your welcome to not like it but it's not a big deal since you have to press IT twice....maybe....depending on how your Runes were looking from the last pull. On a fight like Tortos your likely to have the Death Runes anyway and for Horridon and Primordius single target is the better option.

  2. #42
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    Removing the self heal from tanking would stop blood DKs from solo'ing harder content.
    LOVE the changes, talents, and effort
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    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  3. #43
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    BTW the most clunky design in any current DK specs is HB-Spam DW frost. Spamming single rune abilities until kingdom come is a really really bad design choice. So any change that advocates single rune spam will not get any support from me.

    Get off the single rune abilities that's just unnecessary "dumbing down" the spec as there's literally no thought included.

  4. #44
    Just revive Wandering Plague already!
    And bake 4% lifesteal into Blood Presence just like in Wrath.
    And make Bloodworms shield you instead of heal, so it is now an mini AoE shield spread among nearby targets.

  5. #45
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    I like seeing how people would change the class. Others don't have to agree, it's always going to be a personal thing. There were some pretty interesting ideas from other people on this thread a while back:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Death-Knights

    TBH though, my suggestions weren't much of a major redesign - more tweakage, and that's what I'd rather see done.

    Anyway, OT... I wouldn't want to see a major redesign to DKs. I don't think any of the OP's ideas are "bad" and I can see the thinking behind it but, for me how a DK plays and feels has literally kept me playing it as my main since wotlk. Dossou said earlier on in this thread that we're one of the least changed classes and he's right - in terms of how the class feels to play.

    EDIT - it also seems whenever anyone (including myself) suggests tweaks/redesigns to DKs that they re-introduce Mark of Blood. Man I wish that talent would come back ;-)
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-04-22 at 02:11 PM.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by JKinTMC View Post
    And make Bloodworms shield you instead of heal, so it is now an mini AoE shield spread among nearby targets.
    this idea, i like.

  7. #47
    I'm pretty much in agreement with what a lot of people have stated already.

    What you are doing is trying to homogenize the specs to the point that they're all basically the same thing with a different look. Your rotations would essentially be the same, with different names of abilities. We don't want that. I play Blood and 2H frost - not because they're tanking and the current top DPS spec, but because those are the game-play styles that I like. If/When unholy becomes top - I will not be switching. I don't like the way unholy feels, so I have no intention of playing it - But other people do. If you take away those differences, people will complain more and more.

    I will admit - I do like some of your ideas -> the emphasis on a spec's signature ability (Heart Strike, Frost Strike, Scourge Strike), but there are much better ways of going about it than making them all work basically the same way.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    BTW the most clunky design in any current DK specs is HB-Spam DW frost. Spamming single rune abilities until kingdom come is a really really bad design choice. So any change that advocates single rune spam will not get any support from me.

    Get off the single rune abilities that's just unnecessary "dumbing down" the spec as there's literally no thought included.
    It depends on the situation. Spamming Howling Blast in AOE situations feels good. The ability is very accessible and gets the job done in a fast and furious manner. That is parallel to most situations where you want to AOE. There are not too many encounters with sustained AOE these days.

    The problem with "spamming HB" is when that extends to all situations. This causes a couple of issues:

    ~ We shouldn't want to spam an AOE ability at all times in the first place. Generally, it feels better to change your rotation depending on the number of targets.

    ~ We are bypassing a major spec mechanic (Rime). Rime is there to help break up the monogamy. Blood Strike helped to fill the same role back in WotLK before it was defunct. The WotLK model felt better because you were less likely to get into a Obliterate > Frost Strike pattern going back and forth.

    But, lets take a look at Unholy. You say that single rune abilities are "dumbing down" the specs. So, just because you use Festering Strike (2 runes) twice before spamming 6-7 Scourge Strikes (single rune ability), that makes the current design superior?

    How many runes an ability costs has very little to do with how you actually play the game. It is an illusion. Just because Obliterate costs two runes does not mean that we do not spam that too. The feedback loop is just moving faster with Frost.

  9. #49
    Strong always usable Frost Strike > Strong Obliterate with high downtime
    i miss Cata 2h frost.

    Make 2h frost a runic-power based spec again! Screw Obliterate!!
    I just want to play an enjoyable 2h frost again that focusues on more then just on ability.
    Last edited by Wrien; 2013-04-22 at 11:39 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by delyian View Post
    I'm pretty much in agreement with what a lot of people have stated already.

    What you are doing is trying to homogenize the specs to the point that they're all basically the same thing with a different look. Your rotations would essentially be the same, with different names of abilities. We don't want that. I play Blood and 2H frost - not because they're tanking and the current top DPS spec, but because those are the game-play styles that I like. If/When unholy becomes top - I will not be switching. I don't like the way unholy feels, so I have no intention of playing it - But other people do. If you take away those differences, people will complain more and more.

    I will admit - I do like some of your ideas -> the emphasis on a spec's signature ability (Heart Strike, Frost Strike, Scourge Strike), but there are much better ways of going about it than making them all work basically the same way.
    I think the specs need to play more similar. That's not homogenization though. Currently, our specs play too differently; Frost and Unholy feel like two different classes. That's one reason why we have such a divide between the two; It's not just one spec having a permanent pet. When people would rather reroll than play a different spec, that shows an obvious problem. And I hear that a lot.

    Having some uniformity within the class is not a bad thing. I have always hoped that Blizz would create another class with a different style of "rune system". After all, they have to get tired of implementing Energy-using classes eventually. And we all know a rune system is the superior resource mechanic. But in that scenario, what would define the difference between the DK rune system and another classes "rune system"? IMO, you would need solid uniformity within each classes version. More food for thought.

  11. #51
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    I think the specs need to play more similar. That's not homogenization though. Currently, our specs play too differently; Frost and Unholy feel like two different classes.
    I'd argue that unholy feels like a mix between 2H frost (festering strike/obliterate 2rune attack) and DW frost (scourge strike/HB attack). I mean, the diseases do more damage as unholy, and you need to keep your ghoul empowered but short of the converting of runes to use on scourge strikes the specs aren't too different IMO.

    However... I like that all specs play somewhat differently. Unholy is slightly more fast paced than 2H frost and DW is faster still - I'm not a massive fan of the HB spam simply because I feel like having passive cleave damage from a single target rotation is a bit of a "meh" design decision but that's nothing that a buff to IT (to make it the go-to single target/rime ability) and a nerf to the single target damage of HB couldn't fix.

    Uniformity is fine and dandy but all classes have different ways of playing - you can't suggest that Elemental/Enhancement or Feral/Balance (for example) should be brought more in line with eachother.
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-04-23 at 01:51 AM.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    I'd argue that unholy feels like a mix between 2H frost (festering strike/obliterate 2rune attack) and DW frost (scourge strike/HB attack). I mean, the diseases do more damage as unholy, and you need to keep your ghoul empowered but short of the converting of runes to use on scourge strikes the specs aren't too different IMO.

    However... I like that all specs play somewhat differently. Unholy is slightly more fast paced than 2H frost and DW is faster still - I'm not a massive fan of the HB spam simply because I feel like having passive cleave damage from a single target rotation is a bit of a "meh" design decision but that's nothing that a buff to IT (to make it the go-to single target/rime ability) and a nerf to the single target damage of HB couldn't fix.

    Uniformity is fine and dandy but all classes have different ways of playing - you can't suggest that Elemental/Enhancement or Feral/Balance (for example) should be brought more in line with eachother.
    We don't need the rune mechanics of each spec to be completely different in order to have the specs play differently. That is my point. Rime, KM, Sudden Doom, DT, DRW....How we accomplish our multi-target damage....How and why we dump our Runic Power...these are the things that adequately define the differences between the specs.

    In your example, you are comparing melee to ranged specs. That's apples to oranges.

    People don't complain that Warriors are "dumbed down" or "homogenized" because each spec uses the same singular Rage mechanic. The intricacies of each spec defines the gameplay. I know plenty of Warriors who very much prefer playing one of the two DPS specs for one reason or another over the other. So, I think that we DKs have plenty of room to uniform the class while still offering different gameplay.

  13. #53
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    But, lets take a look at Unholy. You say that single rune abilities are "dumbing down" the specs. So, just because you use Festering Strike (2 runes) twice before spamming 6-7 Scourge Strikes (single rune ability), that makes the current design superior?

    How many runes an ability costs has very little to do with how you actually play the game. It is an illusion. Just because Obliterate costs two runes does not mean that we do not spam that too. The feedback loop is just moving faster with Frost.
    Yes, it's different to have setup - spam - setup - spam than having spam - spam - spam - spam.
    By the way you look at "spamming" abilities, all you ever do in WoW is spam abilities, there's always a button you can mash like furious.
    If you wanna look it from that angle, you could just say "WoW is all the same, all you do is push keys/buttons on mouse and keyboard"

    I like the way blood uses it runes when trying to maximize the tankyness. That's the way I'd love DpS to be played. I don't like the idea of "using abilities as often as possible for max DpS" what I yearn for is "use abilities at the right time for max DpS". But that's not really a design feasible for MMOs or anything outside of small party based multiplayer games.

    Point still stands, while some flavor in the current design would be nice, your redesign is like trusting the fox to guard the hens...

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    Point still stands, while some flavor in the current design would be nice, your redesign is like trusting the fox to guard the hens...
    Wait, are you trying to tell me I should go check on my hens?

    In all seriousness though, I would very much like to see a move back towards pushing the right button at the right time instead of just stacking haste and slamming every button as fast as possible.

  15. #55
    Everything you suggested is bad and you should feel bad.

    Denouncing other users is not allowed. Infracted. ~Nyanmaru
    Last edited by Nyanmaru; 2013-04-24 at 03:15 PM.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    Strong always usable Frost Strike > Strong Obliterate with high downtime
    i miss Cata 2h frost.

    Make 2h frost a runic-power based spec again! Screw Obliterate!!
    I just want to play an enjoyable 2h frost again that focusues on more then just on ability.
    I'm only engaging this because you say it every thread no matter what the subject. There is no difference between MoP Frost and Cata Frost, you don't ignore Frost Strike, infact you cast it more often than Obliterate and considering how in 522 gear that gives you between 9-10k Haste then your pretty much spamming out skills for dear life anyway which is exactly how I played Frost in Cata.

    My last Sim for instance had 31% Obliterate damage and 25% Frost Strike damage, I'd hardly call that irrelevant or unworthy of focus. I just don't get your point because FS is just as important as it ever was.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    Yes, it's different to have setup - spam - setup - spam than having spam - spam - spam - spam.
    By the way you look at "spamming" abilities, all you ever do in WoW is spam abilities, there's always a button you can mash like furious.
    If you wanna look it from that angle, you could just say "WoW is all the same, all you do is push keys/buttons on mouse and keyboard"

    I like the way blood uses it runes when trying to maximize the tankyness. That's the way I'd love DpS to be played. I don't like the idea of "using abilities as often as possible for max DpS" what I yearn for is "use abilities at the right time for max DpS". But that's not really a design feasible for MMOs or anything outside of small party based multiplayer games.

    Point still stands, while some flavor in the current design would be nice, your redesign is like trusting the fox to guard the hens...
    On the topic of spam, you have to admit that Unholy during Hero/Bloodlust can be a bit ridiculous.

    Personally, I like the idea of using different abilities under different circumstances. I want more tools to use instead of filler abilities on my hotbar such as Plague Leech and Horn of Winter every 30 seconds. By having the specific Death rune abilities, we would open up more options for gameplay depending on the situation. The most important part being the addition of a Cleave ability that does not compete with our normal AOE abilities. In the exact way I have things outlined, our priorities would change at 1, 2, 3 and 4+ targets. That's a huge upgrade over what we do now. Our priorities would also change every time our incoming resource rate changed. IE: AMS absorption, Hero/Bloodlust and time away from target. We might not have the ability to game runes any longer (which is a good thing), but we would gain the ability to game our different rune "pools". Having that third resource pool and managing it as such would be so much more interesting than the current design IMO.
    Last edited by The Clash; 2013-04-24 at 02:01 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobysnacks View Post
    I still miss Blood from WotLK. The dps was sucky but damn it, I really enjoyed the spec.
    I miss the complex rotations of blood and UH in WotLK. Like having to do 2 rotations with 6-10 buttons each to make sure you use the runes correctly.
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  19. #59
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    On the topic of spam, you have to admit that Unholy during Hero/Bloodlust can be a bit ridiculous.
    Yeah, I'm not saying the current system is perfect, just that your changes are no improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    Personally, I like the idea of using different abilities under different circumstances. I want more tools to use instead of filler abilities on my hotbar such as Plague Leech and Horn of Winter every 30 seconds. By having the specific Death rune abilities, we would open up more options for gameplay depending on the situation. The most important part being the addition of a Cleave ability that does not compete with our normal AOE abilities. In the exact way I have things outlined, our priorities would change at 1, 2, 3 and 4+ targets. That's a huge upgrade over what we do now. Our priorities would also change every time our incoming resource rate changed. IE: AMS absorption, Hero/Bloodlust and time away from target. We might not have the ability to game runes any longer (which is a good thing), but we would gain the ability to game our different rune "pools". Having that third resource pool and managing it as such would be so much more interesting than the current design IMO.
    No longer gaming runes is a good thing? I picked the class solely for the ability to manage runes as best as I can.

    I am with you that playing Frost feels a bit lacking at times because the choices of abilities to use are fairly limited and the only way to get more DpS is spam those abilities more often. Unholy has a bit more choice in terms of when to transition from one "phase" to another, even if it's only as small as when to switch from FS to traditional unholy or to get an almost full rune bar before DT expires to get Timmy back to full power in no time. It has some other issues especially if the fights are rather short and rely on burst. The only gripe I have with Blood is that Heart-Strike is close to meaningless. And that in comparison to other tanks there's close to no real benefit going into DpS stats.

  20. #60
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    I'm perfectly fine with how DKs currently are.

    I just want more Runic Power driven abilities.
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