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  1. #61
    When the rune regen system took an overhaul in Cata, it was all great and nice and beautiful ladilaaaa...... But the problem lies in the rune regen/rng-based rune acquisition. The mechanics of runic corruption, runic empowerment and blood tap (which changed i believe, if someone remembers the old one please mention it) remains unchanged since WotLK. Its time to assess it.

    Honestly speaking, DKS are at their best state for now. We are not perfect, agreed. But I believe they really need to think about the rune regen mechanic provided. I liked the fact that the mode of rune acquisition has been made optional through the talents, I absolutely love it. Just the choice of method, but not the choices in itself.

    And there is no need to "simplify" DKs or anything about it.
    How to make something chocolaty taste better you ask ? Add more chocolate with layers of chocolate.

  2. #62
    Well, Blood Tap was changed when the talent tree of rune options was implemented. It used to just give you a death rune when used, and had a 30 sec cd.


    And it's likely that we seem in a good place all the time, but I'm sure there are changes that could always makes thing better. Like diseases, why are there two at this point? The DPS specs both have masteries that affect one, but not the other. Each one no longer has a neat special property. They're just something you apply because it's required for another ability to do 100% of its damage. Why not just cut it down to 1 disease?

    They just mentioned having a plan for changing runeforges, which I think is a long overdue talk.

    There's just so many things they could go and touch up, but it doesn't seem needed to us because life is usually always just fine as is :P

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullhurley View Post
    I miss the complex rotations of blood and UH in WotLK. Like having to do 2 rotations with 6-10 buttons each to make sure you use the runes correctly.
    Whaaaa? IT>PS>BS>SS>SS>BS>DC>HoW>DC>SS>SS>SS? 10 Buttons? UH has more to press now than it did in ICC.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    Yeah, I'm not saying the current system is perfect, just that your changes are no improvement.

    No longer gaming runes is a good thing? I picked the class solely for the ability to manage runes as best as I can.

    I am with you that playing Frost feels a bit lacking at times because the choices of abilities to use are fairly limited and the only way to get more DpS is spam those abilities more often. Unholy has a bit more choice in terms of when to transition from one "phase" to another, even if it's only as small as when to switch from FS to traditional unholy or to get an almost full rune bar before DT expires to get Timmy back to full power in no time. It has some other issues especially if the fights are rather short and rely on burst. The only gripe I have with Blood is that Heart-Strike is close to meaningless. And that in comparison to other tanks there's close to no real benefit going into DpS stats.
    I obviously disagree. I think my changes are an improvement. A more complex and meaningful priority system is more important to me than having the illusion that all three specs are not using 6 runes and Runic Power.

    When I said "gaming runes", I was talking about the specific manner in which we use RE and the current BT. Because Frost can "game" Unholy runes, it will always leave Runic Corruption as a poor choice. For all intents and purposes, RE and BT feel the same. We need RC to be equal (in all situations) so that it is a viable choice.

    In my approach, you would be able to "game" resources pools. If it's not a multiple target scenario, they you would want to "game" your death runes assuming you have the resources to do so. But, it still doesn't have a positive or negative impact on the feedback loop. So, as long as you are pushing the right buttons, you are winning.

  5. #65
    Make Scourge Strike pure shadow damage again. Thats the change I really want.

  6. #66
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    When I said "gaming runes", I was talking about the specific manner in which we use RE and the current BT. Because Frost can "game" Unholy runes, it will always leave Runic Corruption as a poor choice. For all intents and purposes, RE and BT feel the same. We need RC to be equal (in all situations) so that it is a viable choice.
    You are tunneling on the DpS variant. BT feels a lot different when you play blood. So no, for all intents and purposes RE and BT are not the same, they are vastly different. "On demand" and "random" never feel the same. If you tunnel on "hammer BT whenever 5+ stacks" then it's less random but still the same. At least for me, it feels very different if you go for BT or RE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    In my approach, you would be able to "game" resources pools. If it's not a multiple target scenario, they you would want to "game" your death runes assuming you have the resources to do so. But, it still doesn't have a positive or negative impact on the feedback loop. So, as long as you are pushing the right buttons, you are winning.
    So you wouldn't "game" anything sine you took great effort to divide our resources into "dps" "utility" and "3rd resource with another button to push" 4 runes of the same type and 2 death runes don't add any real complexity, they just make the rune bar into giant energy bars with shared pools.
    Pushing the right buttons is boring, pushing the right buttons at the right time is what makes it interesting. Either go with a more or less fixed rotation like it was "back then" or make it a proc-reliant whack-a-mole to keep it interesting. Making it into a glorified giant energy bar adds nothing but boredom.

    Once again, I feel that the current system is rather shallow, but your idea of changes doesn't add any depth to it and just leaves us with a whole new set of balancing issues.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    You are tunneling on the DpS variant. BT feels a lot different when you play blood. So no, for all intents and purposes RE and BT are not the same, they are vastly different. "On demand" and "random" never feel the same. If you tunnel on "hammer BT whenever 5+ stacks" then it's less random but still the same. At least for me, it feels very different if you go for BT or RE.



    So you wouldn't "game" anything sine you took great effort to divide our resources into "dps" "utility" and "3rd resource with another button to push" 4 runes of the same type and 2 death runes don't add any real complexity, they just make the rune bar into giant energy bars with shared pools.
    Pushing the right buttons is boring, pushing the right buttons at the right time is what makes it interesting. Either go with a more or less fixed rotation like it was "back then" or make it a proc-reliant whack-a-mole to keep it interesting. Making it into a glorified giant energy bar adds nothing but boredom.

    Once again, I feel that the current system is rather shallow, but your idea of changes doesn't add any depth to it and just leaves us with a whole new set of balancing issues.
    And I would say that you are tunneling on the current model. Having 4 runes to use for your healing Strike will feel differently than only having two strikes worth of runes available at full capacity. Whereas Frost and Unholy would "game" their Death runes, Blood would "game" their Blood runes. You could theoretically always have at least one Heart Strike ready in the waiting for "on demand" healing. And this all works with Runic Empowerment and Runic Corruption.

    As I said before in the thread, I use the Magic Runes addon. I like to have things visually organized. When I play Frost and Unholy, my runes look like FF-FF-UU in their natural state. Only when using Unholy do the runes change colors to Death runes. The better I see my runes, the better I play. So you see, things are already a "glorified energy bar" in my mind. I simply want better gameplay than what we have at the moment.
    Last edited by Clash the DK; 2013-04-25 at 08:39 AM.

  8. #68
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    I am not tunneling on the current model, if you want to say I'm tunneling on anything than on disagreeing with your model.

    Having 4 runes for my healing strike will have me always have 2 rune on CD to not waste rune CDs and 2 runs available. So I could badum-tish use 2 weak healing strikes. Where I would be looking at the same situation with 2 runes on CD and 2 runes available just that I'd use the two runes for one big healing strike. Your Death Runes would just be used the same as Blood Runes are currently used. One on CD for not wasting Runes, using the other just in case it's needed (for RC: clutch Rune Tap, clutch Blood Boil, Soul Reaper) and BT doesn't care when it's used.

    If you wish to discard all possibilities you have by altering your rune layout to show a dumbed down version of what it really is that's fine for you.
    So you want better gameplay for the kind of game that happens in your mind?

    I'll keep an eye on the threat if any interesting ideas pop up, but otherwise there's nothing more to discuss here for me.

  9. #69
    My personal biggest gripe with current DK's isn't so much to do with our mechanics as the fact that the other tank changes (all bar warriors I think) now stack offensive stats as their mitigation (crit for bears/monks and haste for pallies). This means that if you need a 'dps' tank then dk isn't a great choice, not to mention the insane threat disparity if your co-tank can't keep it in his pants when you taunt.

    I think some flavour in the way of offensive stats provide something useful as mitigation would be a nice addition but I don't like the idea of 2 types of rune with no interaction at all. Not to mention for the DPS specs I can see it feeling very fast and haste being a decidedly lacklustre stat if you only have single rune abilities to use at all times.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    I am not tunneling on the current model, if you want to say I'm tunneling on anything than on disagreeing with your model.

    Having 4 runes for my healing strike will have me always have 2 rune on CD to not waste rune CDs and 2 runs available. So I could badum-tish use 2 weak healing strikes. Where I would be looking at the same situation with 2 runes on CD and 2 runes available just that I'd use the two runes for one big healing strike. Your Death Runes would just be used the same as Blood Runes are currently used. One on CD for not wasting Runes, using the other just in case it's needed (for RC: clutch Rune Tap, clutch Blood Boil, Soul Reaper) and BT doesn't care when it's used.

    If you wish to discard all possibilities you have by altering your rune layout to show a dumbed down version of what it really is that's fine for you.
    So you want better gameplay for the kind of game that happens in your mind?

    I'll keep an eye on the threat if any interesting ideas pop up, but otherwise there's nothing more to discuss here for me.
    Actually, no. Runic Empowerment in my model would only give back spec-specific runes. Not Death runes. Runic Empowerment and Runic Corruption would be the PvE choices of the tier. Like I said before, you would no longer be able to game runes. You would however be able to "game resource pools" assuming you have a purpose (Blood) or extra resources (Frost/Unholy). So, things would be a little different than what you are imagining.

    Thank you for the discussion even though you do not like the design.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkthugal View Post
    That's what Unholy is for. The current Unholy rotation is, essentially, Wrath-era Blood's rotation, just with Heart Strike replaced with Scourge Strike and Death Strike replaced with Festering Strike. Aside from the ghoul, it is otherwise identical.

    Anyway, the class is perfectly fine. We don't need Ret-style change for the sake of change. It warms my heart to look at patch notes and not see Death Knight changes, because it means we don't need changes. We are... the perfect class.
    Hrmmmm that doesn't sound like Blood DPS to me. The Blood DPS I remember was:

    Oblit, Oblit, HS, HS, ERW, Oblit, Oblit, HS x6 with DRW somewhere in there. Hilariously OP and fun, it was literally two buttons for max damage.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Damyou View Post
    My personal biggest gripe with current DK's isn't so much to do with our mechanics as the fact that the other tank changes (all bar warriors I think) now stack offensive stats as their mitigation (crit for bears/monks and haste for pallies). This means that if you need a 'dps' tank then dk isn't a great choice, not to mention the insane threat disparity if your co-tank can't keep it in his pants when you taunt.

    I think some flavour in the way of offensive stats provide something useful as mitigation would be a nice addition but I don't like the idea of 2 types of rune with no interaction at all. Not to mention for the DPS specs I can see it feeling very fast and haste being a decidedly lacklustre stat if you only have single rune abilities to use at all times.
    It kinda rubs me the wrong way that certain tanks value Haste so much as of right now. I raid with a Prot Pally. So, sometimes it's better to feed him gear that might be a sidegrade and offer more flexibility for me throughout the gearing up process. That would be less of an issue if we didn't have this problem with over-capping Hit and/or Expertise. It's not a huge deal. But, things do feel strange.

    As far as the value of Haste with single rune abilities, it would remain very similar to how it is right now for DW Frost. The proposed changes with Plague Leech and Horn of Winter might have a larger effect than the actual ability cost change.
    Last edited by Clash the DK; 2013-04-26 at 09:53 AM.

  13. #73
    Stood in the Fire RyokuchaMidori's Avatar
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    Mark of Blood seems either too strong or just too weak.

    I really like the Master of Darkness talents, except for the unholy part maybe. Although as Blood you would most likely always pick up Master of darkness since it increases damage and healing while the other talents only increases damage.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 09:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by obscurede View Post
    When the rune regen system took an overhaul in Cata, it was all great and nice and beautiful ladilaaaa...... But the problem lies in the rune regen/rng-based rune acquisition. The mechanics of runic corruption, runic empowerment and blood tap (which changed i believe, if someone remembers the old one please mention it) remains unchanged since WotLK. Its time to assess it.

    Honestly speaking, DKS are at their best state for now. We are not perfect, agreed. But I believe they really need to think about the rune regen mechanic provided. I liked the fact that the mode of rune acquisition has been made optional through the talents, I absolutely love it. Just the choice of method, but not the choices in itself.

    And there is no need to "simplify" DKs or anything about it.
    Blood tap used to be a 1min cd ability that would convert one blood rune into a death rune, it was basically a death rune on demand, and it was really nice.
    "Skill, as the world of warcraft goes, is only in question between equals in pvp power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

    Thucydides : " The Melian dialogue".

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by RyokuchaMidori View Post
    Mark of Blood seems either too strong or just too weak.

    I really like the Master of Darkness talents, except for the unholy part maybe. Although as Blood you would most likely always pick up Master of darkness since it increases damage and healing while the other talents only increases damage.
    The goal for me was to balance MoB so that it might compete with Death Pact. At least for Blood spec. DP has the 2 minute CD and is instant but requires a ghoul. MoB would only be a 1.5 minute CD (which lines up with DRW) but requires a target to be engaged and it would take a few seconds to gain the full benefit. They both offer similar healing. I think this would offer just the right balance to create a choice.

    On the topic of the Master of Darkness talent, the real challenge there is to offer something of value for Unholy. I went through a lot of iterations of that talent. Currently, the value of that choice hinges on the change to Dark Transformation. Even though having the Gargoyle out for a longer durations seems really cool to me.

    Blood Worms currently over-heal quite a bit. So, they are not necessarily as good as they seem on paper. But, Blood Beasts definitely are cooler than Blood Worms. So, they have that going for them.
    If only we could get that Runeforging update along with every thing else. Then maybe ToT would offer more choice in that tier.
    Last edited by Clash the DK; 2013-04-26 at 10:22 AM.

  15. #75
    Stood in the Fire RyokuchaMidori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    The goal for me was to balance MoB so that it might compete with Death Pact. At least for Blood spec. DP has the 2 minute CD and is instant but requires a ghoul. MoB would only be a 1.5 minute CD (which lines up with DRW) but requires a target to be engaged and it would take a few seconds to gain the full benefit. They both offer similar healing. I think this would offer just the right balance to create a choice.

    On the topic of the Master of Darkness talent, the real challenge there is to offer something of value for Unholy. I went through a lot of iterations of that talent. Currently, the value of that choice hinges on the change to Dark Transformation. Even though having the Gargoyle out for a longer durations seems really cool to me.

    Blood Worms currently over-heal quite a bit. So, they are not necessarily as good as they seem on paper. But, Blood Beasts definitely are cooler than Blood Worms. So, they have that going for them.
    If only we could get that Reforging update along with every thing else. Then maybe ToT would offer more choice in that tier.
    I agree with that, that's why i like this talent .

    Also is Mark of Blood a magic effect ?(like it was back in Wrath), if it is, it can be dispelled which makes it weak in pvp, it's already a bit weaker than Death pact in pvp due to the fact that you need to be in melee range to get the healing (if i understand the talent right). In pve though it's a good choice since you don't have to sacrifice your ghoul.
    "Skill, as the world of warcraft goes, is only in question between equals in pvp power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

    Thucydides : " The Melian dialogue".

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by RyokuchaMidori View Post
    I agree with that, that's why i like this talent .

    Also is Mark of Blood a magic effect ?(like it was back in Wrath), if it is, it can be dispelled which makes it weak in pvp, it's already a bit weaker than Death pact in pvp due to the fact that you need to be in melee range to get the healing (if i understand the talent right). In pve though it's a good choice since you don't have to sacrifice your ghoul.
    I'm not so sure there can be anything created that could compete with Death Pact in PvP specifically. An instant heal with the only requirement being a ghoul active is pretty strong. If something were, then it more than likely would be the de facto choice in all areas of the game as well. Assuming that is the case, I think it would be more prudent to offer more choice in other areas of the game where possible. I think that particular tier would be a success over all.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerodyne View Post
    Hrmmmm that doesn't sound like Blood DPS to me. The Blood DPS I remember was:

    Oblit, Oblit, HS, HS, ERW, Oblit, Oblit, HS x6 with DRW somewhere in there. Hilariously OP and fun, it was literally two buttons for max damage.
    That looks like Diseaseless Blood which alongside Ghoul/HB didn't make it past Naxx. When most people think of Blood DPS it's usually associated with Ulduar which is what UH (sorta) reflects these days.

    Certainly like the idea of Blood Beasts over Blood Worms though.

  18. #78
    Made a couple of small changes with the design:

    Death Strike would now be just a single target strike that does Shadowfrost damage. Death Siphon would now replace Death Strike when chosen in the talent grid.

    New ability "Shadow Cleave" would now be the multiple target ability that costs a Death Rune. Alternative names might be Shadow Slash or Shadow Reaver or even Death Reaver.

    The Dark Crusader talent would now offer the Root ability for each spec. Basically we would have Chains of Ice in different colors that cost a different rune depending on the spec. Practical and functional.
    Last edited by Clash the DK; 2013-04-27 at 08:01 AM.

  19. #79
    new ability for DW frost. Making some use of the unholy runes.

    Frostplague
    1 unholy rune
    10 sec CD
    Empowers frost feaver, cause it to deal damage 150% faster then normal for 10 sec. Frost Feaver can not be refreased during this time.

    Maybe?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    new ability for DW frost. Making some use of the unholy runes.

    Frostplague
    1 unholy rune
    10 sec CD
    Empowers frost feaver, cause it to deal damage 150% faster then normal for 10 sec. Frost Feaver can not be refreased during this time.

    Maybe?
    If you didn't need to Obliterate from time to time then you'd never get Rime procs which is meant to be one of our engaging procs. I don't quite get why Frost would have an ability that empowers an disease when that's meant to be Unholy's remit.

    Regardless if you like the idea of something that's a DoT then how about calling it Frostbite? Frostplague sounds abit uninspired, not like Frostbite is infinitely better.....but still?

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