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  1. #81
    Lei-Shen: Where standing in some things kills you and not standing in some things kills you. o.o

  2. #82
    Lei Shen is too difficult in LFR. Too many different things to pay attention to for an LFR group. There shouldn't be a boss that almost requires 6-8 stacks of determination to down it properly. Week 1, that's what you were looking at. God forbid your LFR queue put you on that boss when you'd already cleared him (happened to a healer friend 3 times).

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Game design issues are NEVER the fault of the players (as a collective). If the game design is such that the community malfunctions, the game designers have screwed up.
    There is no 'issue' with this LFR encounter.
    Last edited by melodramocracy; 2013-04-23 at 05:55 PM.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Next time you guys log in, Blizzard should freeze your character, spawn your favourite mount and shoot it in the head. - Mormolyce

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This sort of argument is fundamentally wrong. Game design issues are NEVER the fault of the players (as a collective). If the game design is such that the community malfunctions, the game designers have screwed up.
    So everything should be designed so that the dull masses thrive and think they are awesome, instead of showing them what they really are, mediocre.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So everything should be designed so that the dull masses thrive and think they are awesome, instead of showing them what they really are, mediocre.
    That depends on the goals of the game designers. I'm just saying that if a game fails to meet its goals, you can't blame the audience.

    But to the extent the goal is to maximize revenue, focusing on dull masses rather than tiny slivers of excellence is probably the way to go. And yes, pandering to the ego of said masses is probably a good idea.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #86
    And I understand a wipe or two. 8 wipes is completely unacceptable though. It took me two hours to kill one boss in LFR. Two hours. I was doing everything right. Everyone was telling the others what to do and they simply refused to do it correctly. I didn't choose who I played with - I don't get a choice as someone who is not a member of a massive guild. It was not fun at all and I'm 100% positive no one else who stayed from the beginning thought it was fun either.

    There was literally nothing more to do. Clearly the players paying no attention to the dungeon journal or other players telling them what to do have no desire to do anything but blow up the boss and get gear (and if you think they are undeserving, you're wrong - this is a game and they pay for it - normal mode suits players who want to be rewarded for their efforts just fine). I didn't want to sit there and wipe because they don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves. I'm not wrong to feel this way either.

    Blizzard created that situation and they need to fix it.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That depends on the goals of the game designers. I'm just saying that if a game fails to meet its goals, you can't blame the audience.

    But to the extent the goal is to maximize revenue, focusing on dull masses rather than tiny slivers of excellence is probably the way to go. And yes, pandering to the ego of said masses is probably a good idea.
    I agree in a purely monetary sense that it is a good idea. However a financially successful game, does not make it a good game (i.e. Farmville). Also it does a disservice to people to make them think they are better than they actually are. Its this "You can do anything" generation. Makes me sick.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I agree in a purely monetary sense that it is a good idea. However a financially successful game, does not make it a good game (i.e. Farmville). Also it does a disservice to people to make them think they are better than they actually are. Its this "You can do anything" generation. Makes me sick.
    Blizzard is part of a publically traded corporation. The people who run that corporation have a fiduciary responsibility to maximize the returns to their shareholders. This means focusing on money. Making a "good game" is important only insofar as it contributes to that goal (which it may do indirectly, for example by contributing to employee morale and retention.) Art for the sake of art is not, and cannot, be their focus.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaru View Post
    And I understand a wipe or two. 8 wipes is completely unacceptable though. It took me two hours to kill one boss in LFR. Two hours.
    Do you think guilds wipe less than this when learning an encounter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaru View Post
    Blizzard created that situation and they need to fix it.
    Blizzard created unattentive players? Blizzard is the reason you seem to want to be in a raiding guild, but aren't?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 02:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Blizzard is part of a publically traded corporation. The people who run that corporation have a fiduciary responsibility to maximize the returns to their shareholders. This means focusing on money. Making a "good game" is important only insofar as it contributes to that goal (which it may do indirectly, for example by contributing to employee morale and retention.) Art for the sake of art is not, and cannot, be their focus.
    Which is exactly why game companies shouldn't be publicly traded entities.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Next time you guys log in, Blizzard should freeze your character, spawn your favourite mount and shoot it in the head. - Mormolyce

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaru View Post
    And I understand a wipe or two. 8 wipes is completely unacceptable though. It took me two hours to kill one boss in LFR. Two hours. I was doing everything right. Everyone was telling the others what to do and they simply refused to do it correctly. I didn't choose who I played with - I don't get a choice as someone who is not a member of a massive guild. It was not fun at all and I'm 100% positive no one else who stayed from the beginning thought it was fun either.

    There was literally nothing more to do. Clearly the players paying no attention to the dungeon journal or other players telling them what to do have no desire to do anything but blow up the boss and get gear (and if you think they are undeserving, you're wrong - this is a game and they pay for it - normal mode suits players who want to be rewarded for their efforts just fine). I didn't want to sit there and wipe because they don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves. I'm not wrong to feel this way either.

    Blizzard created that situation and they need to fix it.
    You took two hours on one boss? I did the entire LFR in about two hours. Blizzard didn't create the idiots who caused you to wipe. This isn't a problem that Blizzard needs to fix, the idiots in the group not paying attention is what caused your wipes.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 06:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Synbaby View Post
    Killed lei shen 4 times this week on different toons, each time my group had a minimum 5 stack determination before he died. The most stacks I saw were 7. I must have bad luck or am queueing at the wrong times. And I don't leave raids to re-queue, I tough it out because the next queue could always be worse than the one I'm in.
    Mother of God, SEVEN WHOLE WIPES. That must have taken like....a couple hours for the raid. People don't seem to get that wiping a few times, even a dozen times, is not "wiping over and over" and "unnacceptable" like most people here seem to think. What has the World (of Warcraft) come to.
    Last edited by cherb; 2013-04-23 at 06:31 PM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Blizzard is part of a publically traded corporation. The people who run that corporation have a fiduciary responsibility to maximize the returns to their shareholders. This means focusing on money. Making a "good game" is important only insofar as it contributes to that goal (which it may do indirectly, for example by contributing to employee morale and retention.) Art for the sake of art is not, and cannot, be their focus.
    O I realize that is how it works, doesn't mean I have to like it. Running a business purely for money's sake is why our world is so shitty atm. Go corporations!!! All hail the new masters.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Also it does a disservice to people to make them think they are better than they actually are. Its this "You can do anything" generation. Makes me sick.
    But you're adding that yourself. Have you polled a few thousand LFR only players and asked them if they think they are awesome because they cleared LFR? Or are you just assuming that's what they think ? Of the small group of casual players I know, they all say "I suck, I'm terrible, but at least I can squeak through LFR" and they are happy. Why are you mad that someone can herp a derp through LFR AND be happy ?

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post

    Which is exactly why game companies shouldn't be publicly traded entities.
    No one wants to make a game that only 20 people will play. We all want to make a game that everyone can enjoy. Blizzard has 3 levels of raiding. Yet, the Heroic and Normal raiders just seems really butt hurt that LFR isn't harder. Blizzard could announce LFR is for Blind, nutless monkeys and you'll have the usual people in here claiming that it needs to be harder because 'How else will they get better ?!?!?!?"

    Quote Originally Posted by cherb View Post
    You took two hours on one boss? I did the entire LFR in about two hours. Blizzard didn't create the idiots who caused you to wipe. This isn't a problem that Blizzard needs to fix, the idiots in the group not paying attention is what caused your wipes.
    That's pretty impressive actually. I'm not sure I've been in a group that 1 shots all 12 bosses and moves quickly from boss to boss and we never have to wait for new tanks or healers, obviously, we're not counting the que times. Funny enough I was in a TOES lfr last night for an over an hour because we wiped on Tsulong and Lei shi and had to wait for more tanks and healers.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-23 at 06:43 PM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    But you're adding that yourself. Have you polled a few thousand LFR only players and asked them if they think they are awesome because they cleared LFR? Or are you just assuming that's what they think ? Of the small group of casual players I know, they all say "I suck, I'm terrible, but at least I can squeak through LFR" and they are happy. Why are you mad that someone can herp a derp through LFR AND be happy ?
    True. I have no data to back this up, its just a feeling I get.

    No one wants to make a game that only 20 people will play. We all want to make a game that everyone can enjoy. Blizzard has 3 levels of raiding. Yet, the Heroic and Normal raiders just seems really butt hurt that LFR isn't harder. Blizzard could announce LFR is for Blind, nutless monkeys and you'll have the usual people in here claiming that it needs to be harder because 'How else will they get better ?!?!?!?"
    Well, if something never challenges the player, how will they get better? You have to be pushed in life to improve.

  14. #94
    wednesday group, 1 shot it, still most stuff should be nerfed not to do 1shot dmg and half the number of adds/balls, maybe make gale winds only do dmg instead of knocking you.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Well, if something never challenges the player, how will they get better? You have to be pushed in life to improve.
    And this is the biggest, silliest argument people make. This is a video game. Try as hard as you want, you can not show a direct correlation to people being pushed in LFR to real life success. You can push me as hard as you want, but I just don't care and never will about mine sweeper. You can claim I'm a completely loser in life because I don't take mine sweeper serious and thus I can't possible take anything in life serious and so I must be a loser.

    Look at other hugely popular games like Battlefield 3, Call of Duty, Etc etc. I log in, hop on a server and I run bunny hopping the whole time and as a whole folks don't really care. But in WoW, if you do that...OMG!!! You're a loser!! You're not striving for perfection !!!! OMG!!!

    LFR is a pub version of raiding, people log in, bunny hop around and no one else should overly care. Normal and heroics are clan matches in which people are focused and trying. Huge difference

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Esubane View Post
    This and Garalon pre-nerf, for once LFR feels like a real raid.
    Boss is tuned nicely, not too difficult but not /follow and collect loot boss either. Sha of fear LFR is one of the most boring encounters ever (12 minute patchwerk style nuking), while this is still in-depth 3-phase fight with mechanics that need to be taken care of.

    I like how you die if you stand in thunderstruck. I like the adds spawning from the bouncey balls (they could use 3-bounce cap, ball that spawned add 3 times already could vanish), and the last phase being doable with half of the raid alive.
    This is my feeling on Lei Shen LFR as well. It is really an enjoyable and well tuned fight. It is the closest thing to a 25 man raid as you will find in an LFR. It actually requires people to pay attention. If they screw up, they die. After the boredom of Sha of Fear LFR it's nice to see Blizz trying to make LFR a bit of a challenge (even if it is only one fight). Hopefully they stick to their guns and dont nerf it into the ground.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This sort of argument is fundamentally wrong. Game design issues are NEVER the fault of the players (as a collective). If the game design is such that the community malfunctions, the game designers have screwed up.
    Is it ? Because what we see here is mechanic that some (maybe majority) of players don't like, but there is minority of players who see it as refreshing situation. Personally I love killing the boss with one group. It's sort of a low level challenge, but it's a challenge never the less ... and what is the situation with the current tier. 9-10 bosses you can kill while being half afk and 2-3 bosses you have to make some kind of effort to kill.

    Maybe if the minority who likes these kind of fights is at least 15% of the population it's worth having them in the game as long as they are unobstructive enough. Last boss in a raid instance that does not drop a tier gear fits that requirement in my vocabulary.

    And what encounters do you think you will remember from this tier ? Those you can afk and loot once everything is done or those that require you to make some basic effort to overcome ...

    What's the worst that can happen to you ...

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    And this is the biggest, silliest argument people make. This is a video game. Try as hard as you want, you can not show a direct correlation to people being pushed in LFR to real life success. You can push me as hard as you want, but I just don't care and never will about mine sweeper. You can claim I'm a completely loser in life because I don't take mine sweeper serious and thus I can't possible take anything in life serious and so I must be a loser.

    Look at other hugely popular games like Battlefield 3, Call of Duty, Etc etc. I log in, hop on a server and I run bunny hopping the whole time and as a whole folks don't really care. But in WoW, if you do that...OMG!!! You're a loser!! You're not striving for perfection !!!! OMG!!!

    LFR is a pub version of raiding, people log in, bunny hop around and no one else should overly care. Normal and heroics are clan matches in which people are focused and trying. Huge difference
    I'm not saying if you don't take wow seriously you suck at life. I'm just saying you should always strive to be better at things you choose to participate in. You choose to play wow, therefore you should try to improve you skill at it. If I choose to play minesweeper I would strive to get better at it. You should always strive to do better in all things (even games).

    I do not play those games for that specific reason. They are just clusterfucks, whats the point of that.

    I never want to do any activity with people who "don't care". If they don't care they should GTFO and do something else and quit wasting the time of the people who do care.
    Last edited by cabyio; 2013-04-23 at 07:06 PM.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    It became a lot easier once we realized how pathetic his aoe damage is and just kept him not charging pillars for 20-30s at a time.
    Transitions are much easier with conduits at level 1 and maybe 50 energy on two of them.
    This sounds like an amazing idea, but the problem I forsee is that LFR healers don't actually heal.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I'm notsaying if you don't take wow seriously you suck at life. I'm just saying you should always strive to be better at things you choose to participate in.
    I never want to do any activity with people who "don't care". If they don't care they should GTFO and do something else and quit wasting the time of the people who do care.
    The problem is, you're putting value into something that is meant to be recreational. You want people to view it has a challenge, something they should want to overcome. I play solitaire when I'm bored, and when I can't finish a deck I just hit "new deck" I don't start googling Solitaire game tips. Show me the value of being great at solitaire, there is virutally no value and thus it's not worth any effort to get better.

    You should be playing games because they are "fun" to you. What you are describing is you want other people to play the way that's fun to you. Battlefield 3 in a pure PuG sense can be really frustrating if you're serious about wanting to win. But if you're serious about wanting to win, you should join a clan and play in matches. People who play in Public servers are there just to have fun.

    You ever play volleyball in your back yard ? If so, did you make sure everything was regulation height and length ? Did you strictly observe all the rules? No, you hit the ball around willy nilly and giggle and laugh the whole time. That's LFR! You want to play organize ball, you go join a team that's focused on playing that way.

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