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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    The problem is, you're putting value into something that is meant to be recreational. You want people to view it has a challenge, something they should want to overcome. I play solitaire when I'm bored, and when I can't finish a deck I just hit "new deck" I don't start googling Solitaire game tips. Show me the value of being great at solitaire, there is virutally no value and thus it's not worth any effort to get better.

    You should be playing games because they are "fun" to you. What you are describing is you want other people to play the way that's fun to you. Battlefield 3 in a pure PuG sense can be really frustrating if you're serious about wanting to win. But if you're serious about wanting to win, you should join a clan and play in matches. People who play in Public servers are there just to have fun.

    You ever play volleyball in your back yard ? If so, did you make sure everything was regulation height and length ? Did you strictly observe all the rules? No, you hit the ball around willy nilly and giggle and laugh the whole time. That's LFR! You want to play organize ball, you go join a team that's focused on playing that way.
    In my opinion, sucking at something and losing is not fun, whether its a game or a real life endeavor.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    The problem is, you're putting value into something that is meant to be recreational. You want people to view it has a challenge, something they should want to overcome. I play solitaire when I'm bored, and when I can't finish a deck I just hit "new deck" I don't start googling Solitaire game tips. Show me the value of being great at solitaire, there is virutally no value and thus it's not worth any effort to get better.

    You should be playing games because they are "fun" to you. What you are describing is you want other people to play the way that's fun to you. Battlefield 3 in a pure PuG sense can be really frustrating if you're serious about wanting to win. But if you're serious about wanting to win, you should join a clan and play in matches. People who play in Public servers are there just to have fun.

    You ever play volleyball in your back yard ? If so, did you make sure everything was regulation height and length ? Did you strictly observe all the rules? No, you hit the ball around willy nilly and giggle and laugh the whole time. That's LFR! You want to play organize ball, you go join a team that's focused on playing that way.
    There is a trap in all that. Giving up even recreationally can become a habit. Just because it's something you do as relaxation does not mean you should give up every time something similar to an obstacle appears. That can be pretty destructive. Implicit response to obstacle should be crush it. If that does not work then crush it with patience. And then if it takes too long and it's just a relaxation exercise you can opt to give up.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    There is a trap in all that. Giving up even recreationally can become a habit. Just because it's something you do as relaxation does not mean you should give up every time something similar to an obstacle appears. That can be pretty destructive. Implicit response to obstacle should be crush it. If that does not work then crush it with patience. And then if it takes too long and it's just a relaxation exercise you can opt to give up.
    That's what I'm talking about. Props to you!

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    You ever play volleyball in your back yard ? If so, did you make sure everything was regulation height and length ? Did you strictly observe all the rules? No, you hit the ball around willy nilly and giggle and laugh the whole time. That's LFR! You want to play organize ball, you go join a team that's focused on playing that way.
    Most stupid definiton of lfr ive ever seen... lfr is like volleyball for 5 years old child, its doesnt matter that ball often fall on ground because they cant do it better. Because they cant do it properly. Doing something bad for - i dont know - teh lulz isnt fun.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    There is a trap in all that. Giving up even recreationally can become a habit. Just because it's something you do as relaxation does not mean you should give up every time something similar to an obstacle appears. That can be pretty destructive. Implicit response to obstacle should be crush it. If that does not work then crush it with patience. And then if it takes too long and it's just a relaxation exercise you can opt to give up.
    And you turning something that someone doesn't find fun into "giving up". All you guys have is this endless negative connotation. If people in LFR don't share the same mind set as heroic raiders, then they are just "giving up". Again, we all put value into things. if something is of little to no value, it's not giving up. It's a poor return on investment. You can't make a LFR raiders value a LFR boss kill like you do. You think 2-3 wipes as no big deal, they view it as wasting their time.

    Quote Originally Posted by blgns View Post
    Most stupid definiton of lfr ive ever seen... lfr is like volleyball for 5 years old child, its doesnt matter that ball often fall on ground because they cant do it better. Because they cant do it properly. Doing something bad for - i dont know - teh lulz isnt fun.
    I'm not sure what you are really saying. Thousands, maybe million of teenagers and adults play backyard volleyball. I've never met any that play by the official rule sets. They allow some carrying here and there, they cross over the net, they allow the foot to cross under the net, the nets are regulation height or length. But some how these people have fun despite not taking it that serious. Now let some of you guys show up and start being rule nazis and blowing the whistle on ever little infraction and the fun will end.

    What you guys want is for LFR to be more like normal raids and you want people to care and strive for perfection. In your world, I imagine you would be extra happy if those that don't take this game serious would just quit and then you would be the first one screaming when Blizzard subs drop below 9 million. Interesting.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-23 at 07:51 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    And you turning something that someone doesn't find fun into "giving up". All you guys have is this endless negative connotation. If people in LFR don't share the same mind set as heroic raiders, then they are just "giving up". Again, we all put value into things. if something is of little to no value, it's not giving up. It's a poor return on investment. You can't make a LFR raiders value a LFR boss kill like you do. You think 2-3 wipes as no big deal, they view it as wasting their time.
    A victory with no effort is no victory at all.

  7. #107
    Joined a group with 5 stack's , killed him on 9th with 25 ppl alive (random group).
    Its tuned realy nice. Actualy most of the ToT LFR fights are chalenging enought to be fun!
    So no its not overtuned your group just didnt try hard enought. I'm against dumbing LFR down to faceroll.

  8. #108
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    You ever play volleyball in your back yard ? If so, did you make sure everything was regulation height and length ? Did you strictly observe all the rules? No, you hit the ball around willy nilly and giggle and laugh the whole time. That's LFR! You want to play organize ball, you go join a team that's focused on playing that way.
    Nope, but let's use football as an example. It is a recreational game, and people have fun playing it.

    Even randomly going to the field and play with stranger there, you will play by rules, and you will try, and you will want to win. Of course if you are there with an organised group of friends that would be a different sort of game, but doesn't mean when you play with stranger in a field you shouldn't try.

    You can just go "meh" and kick the ball a few times, but people will want to stop playing with you very fast. You can argue "but I just want to have fun", the point is when your "fun" is related to other people, you slacking will make other people not having fun, therefore before long you will be excluded from the game.

    If you insist on you want to have fun your way, you should be kicking the ball against the wall in your back yard by yourself, not joining a game with people where your effort matters.

  9. #109
    All if you people saying it's fine must not be in a battlegroup that includes Latin American servers. I joined an LFR the other day where at least a third of the raid did not speak English and this included both of the tanks. I had joined in on their fifth wipe and figured I'd give it a go but despite the raid trying their hardest to communicate with the tanks they had literally no clue what to do and just slowly wiped the raid by not tanking the boss near a pillar or tanking it in an electrified quadrant. If Blizzard is going to make bosses where communication is essential to killing the boss then battlegroups like this need to be fixed.

  10. #110
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    Lei Shen LFR is way more fine than Durumu was. The mechanics are easily explained and after perhaps 2 or 3 wipes you should get the kill. There was no proper way to explain how the maze on Durumu worked to the LFR crowd.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    And you turning something that someone doesn't find fun into "giving up". All you guys have is this endless negative connotation. If people in LFR don't share the same mind set as heroic raiders, then they are just "giving up". Again, we all put value into things. if something is of little to no value, it's not giving up. It's a poor return on investment. You can't make a LFR raiders value a LFR boss kill like you do. You think 2-3 wipes as no big deal, they view it as wasting their time.
    You are missing the important condition. Quiting when presented with a challenge ... that's what turns into giving up. And there is nothing wrong with that if you do it once upon a time while relaxing. But it's very easy to make a habit out of it. I strongly suggest everyone to make an effort every time they face a challenge ... but it's free world and all.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    If you insist on you want to have fun your way, you should be kicking the ball against the wall in your back yard by yourself, not joining a game with people where your effort matters.
    Fair enough. So when you're playing football you have the refs there? Because, I'm pretty sure Bob was off sides and John was just guilty of holding. Clearly Tim was guilty of pass interference. You have the chains, better be making sure that was a full 10 yards. I'm not saying throw the rules out, I'm saying some of you guys are trying to apply at a minimum college level strictness to something that's not even a high school level commitment. You have folks who want to set a minimum 40 time to be allowed to to play as well.

    The people who refuse to do anything in LFR can get kicked if enough people agree he's dead weight or a troll. But in this context we're talking about how strictly to enforce the rules, not ignoring them altogether. Your lateral pass wasn't so lateral, but we'll let it slide cause it was close enough. Lei Shen doesn't need to have so many things going on and the damage can be scaled back a little bit more. The guild and I have been in more groups that required 5+ stacks than not. And if some had their way, their wouldn't even be a determination buff, which means, many LFR groups would just straight up fail. Which is what I know many people really want to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    You are missing the important condition. Quiting when presented with a challenge ... that's what turns into giving up. And there is nothing wrong with that if you do it once upon a time while relaxing.
    I understand your point and we'll just have to disagree I'm afraid. When I playing mahjong and I get stuck, I might spend a few mintues trying to figure it out an then I hit new game. Did I give up ? sure. It's not worth the effort. What did it cost me to give up ? nothing ? My life doesn't depend on it, I'm not going to starve as a result.

    Maybe I'm gifted, I can separate in important things from trivial things. I recognize when it's important to push through and when there is no purpose other than to be bull headed. You know there is a danger of being bull headed and wasting time on things that are better to just leave and start anew.

    I don't apply what's important to me to others and assume if they aren't willing to "push through" they are habitual quitters. Now if you have data that shows people who quit in LFR and "cry for nerfs" are also real life failures, I think we'd all be interested in that report.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-23 at 08:25 PM.

  13. #113
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    The fight is already SO much easier though, and trust me, the damage is laughable in LFR.

    Ball bouncing soak, static shock, thunder strike, how hard the add hits, chain lightning damage, all of them are WAY higher in normal. I know LFR is supposed to be easy, the damage is ALREADY easy to handle, there has the a line between easy, or stand in shit and get the kill.

    Right now it isn't really the damage that is killing people, but people did not know what the hell they are doing. All the mechanics if done right hardly did much damage, as long as people don't mindlessly stack together, get chain lightning and spawn like 7 adds, or decided to tank the boss on the empowered floor because it looks shiny.

    In a couple of weeks when people start to know the mechanics, it will be a walk in the park, at that point you will be laughing at how easy it is. The damage is fine as it is, it is the last boss in the tier, even for LFR, let's keep a slight challenge there?

    PS. yes even playing with stranger, off side and hand ball WILL be pointed out. If enough people sees it and the offender refuse to admit, we can kick him out of the game just like we can kick slacker off in LFR.

  14. #114
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    Took two tries for my group first time. We didn't soak the add thing and we didn't stack for Ball Lightning either.

  15. #115
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Maybe I'm gifted, I can separate in important things from trivial things. I recognize when it's important to push through and when there is no purpose other than to be bull headed. You know there is a danger of being bull headed and wasting time on things that are better to just leave and start anew.
    It is not about what is important and what is not, but just boil down to what do people find fun.

    People that just want to kick the ball around randomly should not be playing with people that want to play with rules and try to win. This the the biggest issue of LFR, the people with contrast of interest play together, this is where most of these arguement comes from.

    While I agree LFR should be left for the "care free" players, alts or missing trinket slots, people that tries WILL do LFR for them, what Blizzard should do is share the LFR lock out with Normal and Heroic, therefore people that run those will never interact with people that does LFR.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    Lei Shen LFR is way more fine than Durumu was. The mechanics are easily explained and after perhaps 2 or 3 wipes you should get the kill. There was no proper way to explain how the maze on Durumu worked to the LFR crowd.
    Partially because from a graphical perspective, Durumu is easily one of the most retarded fights ever created.

    That entire wing of ToT is pretty goddamn awful, come to think of it, and I'm relieved I don't need to set foot in it again.
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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    Ball bouncing soak, static shock, thunder strike, how hard the add hits, chain lightning damage, all of them are WAY higher in normal. I know LFR is supposed to be easy, the damage is ALREADY easy to handle, there has the a line between easy, or stand in shit and get the kill.

    Right now it isn't really the damage that is killing people, but people did not know what the hell they are doing. All the mechanics if done right hardly did much damage, as long as people don't mindlessly stack together, get chain lightning and spawn like 7 adds, or decided to tank the boss on the empowered floor because it looks shiny.

    PS. yes even playing with stranger, off side and hand ball WILL be pointed out. If enough people sees it and the offender refuse to admit, we can kick him out of the game just like we can kick slacker off in LFR.
    It's a tough call no doubt. First time I did it, it was 4 wipes and we got it. sadly, I didn't run again until saturday and it was 7 wipes. They went over the strats, what to do, over and over and over and over. People didn't understand, people didn't care. I don't know. I have a screenshot of a warrior doing 36K with 6 stacks and people calling for all the below 40K people to be kicked and they wouldn't kick them. Most of my guild as the same stories, anywhere form 4-8 wipes.

    Of the groups that seem to get him in 1-2 attempts, seem to be half full of normal mode raiders. Of course, LFR is piss easy for those of us who normal mode raid, we get to half ass the mechanics and not die and still kill the boss. I think the Saturday afternoon LFRs are more of the real LFR players who are completely lost on what to do like the ones in my 7 wipe run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    While I agree LFR should be left for the "care free" players, alts or missing trinket slots, people that tries WILL do LFR for them, what Blizzard should do is share the LFR lock out with Normal and Heroic, therefore people that run those will never interact with people that does LFR.
    I'm still on the fence on that, because I want the valor from clearing LFRs. But I will say, part of me does want this, so that the LFR folks can be all to themselves for the most part. I imagine LFR would become a 25 man heroic dungeon at that point, but as long as they are having fun, then why should I care.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-23 at 08:44 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    I understand your point and we'll just have to disagree I'm afraid. When I playing mahjong and I get stuck, I might spend a few mintues trying to figure it out an then I hit new game. Did I give up ? sure. It's not worth the effort. What did it cost me to give up ? nothing ? My life doesn't depend on it, I'm not going to starve as a result.

    Maybe I'm gifted, I can separate in important things from trivial things. I recognize when it's important to push through and when there is no purpose other than to be bull headed. You know there is a danger of being bull headed and wasting time on things that are better to just leave and start anew.

    I don't apply what's important to me to others and assume if they aren't willing to "push through" they are habitual quitters. Now if you have data that shows people who quit in LFR and "cry for nerfs" are also real life failures, I think we'd all be interested in that report.
    I am not sure what you are replying to, but it's not what I was writing. I stated that it can become a habit ... you don't have to convince me that you are the pinacle of self discipline or that there are others out there.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  19. #119
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Yep, by that point that can make it standing in thunderstrike will cause 10% damage, bouncy ball take 3 bounce to spawn an add, whatever they find it relax and fun they can implement, everyone happy.

  20. #120
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    A victory with no effort is no victory at all.
    It is if the process itself is amusing or fun.
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