Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Carnished Toast
    Posts
    3,164

    Horridon 10N - what can we improve on?

    Hi everyone.

    Our raid group has always been casual, fun-first kind of team who raids 4 hours a week, but recently we are thinking of making some improvements to actually start clearing normals in the tier they were designed. We did MSV without much issue, but could not clear Heart of Fear until the 10% nerf came in. Just to give an idea of our skill level, we had 17 attempts on Elegon, 22 attempts on Imperial Vizier, 42 attempts on Blade Lord (many people just couldn't do the tornado phase, despite trying their very best), and 48 attempts on Garalon before we killed those bosses.

    We started Throne of Thunder last week, and while Jin'Rokh was relatively decent, we are stuck on Horridon currently (our second night of attempts), and I am wondering what we can improve on. I started using World of Logs for the first time, as I was looking for hard data and analysis from people who know other classes very well to see what we can do.

    Our composition:

    Brewmaster Monk (Me) - WW offspec, non-optimized gear
    Prot Paladin - Ret offspec
    Fire Mage
    SV Hunter
    Ret Paladin
    Holy Paladin
    Disc Priest - Shadow offspec
    Enhancement Shaman
    Resto Druid
    Frost DK

    No one else has any offspecs. Here is our log from tonight's attempts (please ignore attempt #7, that was just a "everyone is exhausted" screwup). Our strategy is to stick the prot paladin fulltime on Horridon, using the many HoPs to clear punctures, and me on the adds since we found out that our total damage on adds this way is higher than the usual tank swapping.

    We're dying to add phases, specifically the second and third gate - we never got to the 4th. I think our damage is a little lacking, there were usually quite a few frozen orbs on the ground at the 3rd gate. At the same time, we have had DPS deaths before tanks too. On a couple of tries, my friend the Horridon tank dies from ... I am not sure - either no cooldowns or no heals (he raids heroic on his main though, so I'm inclined to think he knows what cooldowns are).

    Anything you can offer is greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-04-21 at 04:15 AM.

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  2. #2
    Alrighty, lets take a look. I briefly glanced at your armories and while I did see stuff I disagree with none of it was so drastic as to be worth bringing up. You seem to have the iLevels to do this boss so you just need to execute better.

    First lets look at your deaths.

    - Attempt 1: It starts with you dying. You took damage from Sand Trap (your fault for standing in it) as well as the fire DoT (healer fault for not healing you or dispeling it). Your Druid for example had ONE dispel that entire attempt, while you're sitting there dying to a dispellable debuff. The fault for that lies with you (the trap) and the healers (lack of dispels) especially the Druid healer. After you died everything went to shit.
    - Attempt 2: Your Shaman dies first, once again a combination of Trap and Dispel. Again his fault for standing in the trap. He actually ankhed or got Brezed then stood in another trap and died again. After that your DK got hit by Horridon's cleave which is completely inexcusable and very easy to avoid, combined with poison damage (weak interrupts by the raid, partially due to dead Shaman) means he died too. You're left to 8 man and its a wipe.
    - Attempt 4: Your Holy Pally stands in a frozen orb and dies to it, from there on things fall apart. Again an avoidable death from standing in a bad place.

    I can keep going but I think you're starting to see the pattern here. Every wipe seems to stem from someone, or even multiple people, standing in stuff that's avoidable damage. Sand Traps, Frozen Orbs, Horridon's Cleave... etc. This is obviously an execution issue and your raid simply needs to practice the fight and play better. I can't really give you in-depth advice... the stuff is there, just don't stand in it.

    What I can tell you is perhaps a few things to make the fight less hectic so you have an easier time devoting your attention to the ground under your feet.

    - For one, try 2 healing the fight. It might feel sketchy at first but practice it. The extra DPS on adds actually makes adds die much faster, which means less shit on the ground to avoid, less damage for the raid, less debuffs to dispel... etc. It starts a snowball effect to where 2 healing is usually easier than 3 healing. But its up to your DPS to actually kill stuff fast. The less adds up, the less pressure there is on the entire raid.

    - Focus hard on interrupts. Especially on the second door, you should ideally never ever allow an add on the 2nd door to cast. More realistically you'll get 1 or 2 casts but NO MORE. Really really REALLY focus on those interrupts, even if you need to pre-assign people to adds or give them assist so they can mark their chosen interrupt target. Whatever works for you, interrupt well.

    - Likewise dispels, on doors 2, 3 and 4 use all possible dispellers, not just the healers. Door 1 is healers only. You already seem to be doing this to some extent so good job.

    - For door 3, group your raid up near the add tank (you) and slowly move away from the door towards door 4. Keep kiting like this in order to stay away from Frozen Orbs. The extra DPSer comes in real handy here. Be very careful of those Frozen Orbs, use bloodlust on this door if you feel like it. Its not needed that badly anywhere else.

    - For door 4, when you get to it, again do the above - use all possible dispelers (decurse in this case), don't stand in stuff ("stuff" here means don't stand near totems or in front of bears), tank 1 bear each and it should go ok.

    - For the Dinomancers, I dunno how you're doing it right now but what we do is have 3-4 DPS assigned to immediately burn it to half HP. When it transforms into the Dinosaur and drops the orb we let it go, its harmless in its dino form, and we burn the remaining adds. The 1 person assigned to the orb duty must use it ASAP and remember, s/he can move while channeling the orb so don't stand in stuff while doing so.
    Last edited by RavenGage; 2013-04-21 at 05:05 AM.


  3. #3
    Put a mark on door 3 (preferably somewhat away from door 3 towards door 4). Tell all healers/dps to stack on it. When the first frozen warlord spawns nuke the hell out of it with lust (you don't really need it near end anyway). Once you get aggro on the 2nd and 3rd (spawn at same time) take them away from the mark, but still in range of healers ofcourse. At that point melee should go back to the mark. The other adds on these doors random fixate so can't really be tanked, apart from the taunt 3 second fixation but don't bother with that. Once you are at a safe distance, and there are some adds on the marker the dps can AoE them down while healers can easily use AoE-heals like swiftmend, healing rain, etc. Make sure to pop stuff like army, earth elemental, etc. Anything that can taunt will reduce the debuffs going out on raid members. Just make sure you are at a safe distance when they pop those because if rocky decides to taunt a frozen warlord and he goes on the marker and puts a frozen orb there it's gg if people don't react quick. Xuen can also tank one of the warlords btw in case you feel like you take too much damage. Just keep the frozen orbs away from the raid and should be a lot easier.

    Awesome signature/avatar by Visenna!

  4. #4
    we recently killed him so I'll give you a couple of additional tips...

    1) Make sure people focus the elite adds. Wastewalkers on 1st door, venom priests second, etc. On the first door also kill the basilisks asap. Don't just randomly AOE (i.e for the hunter, dont just spam Multishot).

    2) To get ahead of things I blow my initial CDs on the first Wastewalker. That way he's down before or as the next 2 spawn and you're not dealing with 2.5 elites up.

    3) I haven't looked at logs (it's late and I'm sick), but make sure people aren't dpsing horridon aside from a) dots, esp dots that help proc other effects and b) between gates. It's more important between gates to be at the next gate dealing with adds though.

    4) make sure that when someone gets charge the run out of the raid, ideally to the Horridon tank. Don't let him charge into a group.

  5. #5
    Some more tips

    for dispells, the dudu should symbiosis a pala to get hte cleanse so he can dispell deasease at door 3 and a second poison at door 2
    Dispells arent only healers job, all who can should waste a global to help the raid and especially the heals. for ex. Monks can dispell poisons, palas poisons and deaseases, mages the curse (door 4)

    other than that, focus killing the special mobs each door has really fast.
    Die by the sword

  6. #6
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    781
    Some advice from me:

    The gates:
    - At gate 2 its curcial to pummel the Venompriests´ casts. As at every gate, at first one Priest will jump down, then two simultanously. Make sure you grab the first one immediatly and nuke the shit out of him. He Shouldn´t be casting more than once, despite that, classify two pummlers for him. After that, two Priests will come down. Mark one,. and possible always the same one (locations they jump down are always the same) with a skull, nuke him. Let 1 DD take care of the other priest, be sure to hold aggro. Since the nerf (and even before that) it is possible to manage Gate 2 without any stacks.
    Kill those greenish Remnants (cant remember the name) "on the fly", just between priests or whenever a DD feels like he has the time to do so. They can easily be solo-nuked and do not even require to be tanked cause they simply die that fast.
    - At Gate 3, It´s crucial to Kill those Frostwarriors (dont know the english name) as fast as possible. As soon as the first one reaches the ground, pop Bloodlust and nuke him. While being nuked, you should drag him towards the Wall/Gate, so that he will drop his frostorb not directly under Horridon (If you tank him in front of the Gates). He should be dead way before the other two jumo down. If they jump down, again, mark one with skull, nuke him. One of those two sould be dead when the dinomancer comes down. Note, that no other Adds need to be tanked at Gate 3.

    Some general advice:
    - Swap tanks after each gate. If you want to stick to your strategy, which seems doable since you have three Paladins, do so, but note that your healer should be fully concentrated on topping the people if you are struggeling. Swapping tanks is made easy, because Horridon really takes a long time to come after the tank when he bashed the gate. Time enough to finish remaining Adds AND moving to the next gate (as a tank, DDs want to dps the Horridon in that time).
    - Dinomancer has priority above all. name a melee who shall click the orb when the dinomancer reaches 50%. Note, that you can move while channeling the orb. When he reached 50% (very good to distinguish, he turns into a raptor ) he gets uninteresting. Finish of the remaining named mobs and proceed killing the smaller trashmobs from out of the gate while moving to the next gate.
    - If you don´t do it already, tank Horridon parallel to the gates with a good distance. He shouldnt be touching the stonefloor in front of the gates but he and especially his tank should be in reach. Gives your multidotters the option to .. well, multidot.
    - Try to do it with two healers. I know, no Offspeccs, but if you have the option, try to. It eases up the gates, especially 2 and 3. People have to stop standing in stuff, thou.
    - Tell non-healers to disspell if they can.
    - Don´t stand in stuff. Aside from dots, that is what always killed you.
    - When Horridon charges someone, try to make him move out of the group. It´s very bad for dps and quite chaotic, if he charges right in front of the gate and everyone has to move. Melees won´t be able to pummel, casters, including healers, have to cancel their cast, mobs are hitting backs if you´re not strafing them. If a mage is charged at, for example, make him blink to the Paladins position. Nobody else will have to move aside from Horrdions tank (who should ALWAYS move out of Horridons groundattack) and the mage.
    Last edited by Valech; 2013-04-21 at 10:57 AM.

  7. #7
    horridon is all about not standing in shit, dispel what can be dispelled and dpsing the right add down first, when you can do this then horridon shouldnt be a problem, i cant really improve on what valech said only simplify it hehe.

  8. #8
    Want to beat Horridon? This one weird trick will do it for you! Click here!

    Seriously though, the one trick we've used is it have the MT and a healer tank Horridon far away from whatever door you're working on. This way he never charges the main group and screws everyone up.

    On door 2 the key is to assign interrupts to specific people at specific times. Our group is 3 ranged DPS and 2 melee.
    Venom priest 1) melee DPS 1 interrupts his cast, all DPS burn him down. Other add is picked up by off tank.
    Venom priests 2 & 3) melee DPS 1 tanks left one, melee DPS 2 tanks right one. All ranged DPS on left one first. Melee are responsible for interrupting this VP. Burn left VP, burn right VP. When dinomancer spawns, ranged DPS 1 interrupts him, all DPS on him after VP 2 is dead. Ranged 2 and 3 take venomous effusions and save their interrupts for them. Healer grabs orb, closes door then we just clean up the rest of the adds. We get zero venom on us.

    Door 3 - have your frost DK pop army of the dead when the first frost king drops. Everyone stack on the tank to keep adds clumped up for AOE dmg. Slowly move the pile to the 4th door. Don't waste heroism on this door. Stick together and the extra undead minions from army take a lot of the disease casts instead of party members. This is now our easiest door.

    Door 4 kill bear then kill the shaman on that bear. Don't end up with 3 dead bears and 3 live shaman.

    Save hero for the big add at the end.

    We wiped 30+ times on Horridon until we perfected this technique. Now he's a one shot every time.

  9. #9
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Carnished Toast
    Posts
    3,164
    Thanks guys, I'm seeing some general consensus here, and lots of helpful tactics I never thought of. Our raid awareness is something we are trying to fix - I admit I fail at moving out of stuffs sometimes too, but made it a point not to do that too often. We'll try out the strats here for tonight!

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  10. #10
    If people aren't noticing things that they're standing in, make sure everyone has DBM. It announces every single thing in that encounter.

  11. #11
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Carnished Toast
    Posts
    3,164
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    If people aren't noticing things that they're standing in, make sure everyone has DBM. It announces every single thing in that encounter.
    Everyone has DBM, just people dont' pay attention to the warnings because they're too used to us (my co-tank and myself) calling out things for them. It's a habit that will take some time to break. As I mentioned, only recently we decided to step up our game and not be content with doing last tier's raid.

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  12. #12
    Aside from the above advice remind your dps which adds are priorities for which doors and make sure you are burning adds down. I see lots of people who struggle on this fight stress AoE, but the fight is more about burning the right things down quickly and then stopping add flow with the orb.

    Don't stand in stuff, burn priorities, dispel, and interrupt.

    Not great advice, but don't fall into the trap of adopting an AoE mindset just because there are tons of adds.
    "Brevity is...wit"

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Everyone has DBM, just people dont' pay attention to the warnings because they're too used to us (my co-tank and myself) calling out things for them. It's a habit that will take some time to break. As I mentioned, only recently we decided to step up our game and not be content with doing last tier's raid.

    OK, I'm sorry, but if your raiders don't pay attention to the sound, the flashing text in the center of the screen.... you have issues. If people play with the sound off, turn it on. But come on, even if someone doesn't call it out it takes a special kind of willful inattention to ignore a loud sound and big text saying "Sand Trap, move" or something. This isn't about stepping your game up, this is Raiding 101. I'm really not trying to be harsh, but getting out of stuff when you have a flashing warning on your screen is as basic as it gets. It shouldn't take ANY effort to pay that much attention.

    My worries here are two. First, getting out of stuff on t he ground can't be called out. It's individual, not something a raid leader calls out. Second, it's SO basic that if you have people who a) don't grasp how important it is and b) ignore clear DBM alerts you might not be able to 'get more serious' without dumping them.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-04-21 at 10:42 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Everyone has DBM, just people dont' pay attention to the warnings because they're too used to us (my co-tank and myself) calling out things for them. It's a habit that will take some time to break. As I mentioned, only recently we decided to step up our game and not be content with doing last tier's raid.
    There's been excellent advice, and I'd like to add GTFO is a great addon for not standing in shit. The sound is so annoying when you take unnecessary damage, I'm sure it'll greatly improve some of your players.

    Good luck!

    Additionally, raidleading is not a bad habit. You should continue to do so, so the raid knows at all times where it's supposed to be and what it's supposed to do, what is going to happen. This is especially the case with an inexperienced raid like yours

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 12:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post

    My worries here are two. First, getting out of stuff on t he ground can't be called out. It's individual, not something a raid leader calls out. Second, it's SO basic that if you have people who a) don't grasp how important it is and b) ignore clear DBM alerts you might not be able to 'get more serious' without dumping them.
    I disagree. It takes 2 seconds of RL's time to say "remember the sand trap guys" "don't forget watch the totems" to snap people back to what's important at that current moment, again, as I said earlier, especially so with an inexperienced raid.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-04-21 at 10:45 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    I disagree. It takes 2 seconds of RL's time to say "remember the sand trap guys" "don't forget watch the totems" to snap people back to what's important at that current moment, again, as I said earlier, especially so with an inexperienced raid.
    Indeed, even if it's stuff like 'remember healthstones, potions, click the orb, your next on threat, be ready to pop images, or 'dire call inc, use a personal' - all really helps more than you can imagine

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    There's been excellent advice, and I'd like to add GTFO is a great addon for not standing in shit. The sound is so annoying when you take unnecessary damage, I'm sure it'll greatly improve some of your players.

    Good luck!

    Additionally, raidleading is not a bad habit. You should continue to do so, so the raid knows at all times where it's supposed to be and what it's supposed to do, what is going to happen. This is especially the case with an inexperienced raid like yours

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 12:43 AM ----------



    I disagree. It takes 2 seconds of RL's time to say "remember the sand trap guys" "don't forget watch the totems" to snap people back to what's important at that current moment, again, as I said earlier, especially so with an inexperienced raid.
    Sure, they can call out 'watch for sand' but the RL cannot call out specific people's sand traps. That's what I mean. And I'm sorry, but it doesn't take much experience at all to get the hell out of things that are on the ground ESPECIALLY when DBM is yelling at them about it. Keep in mind that DBM is NOT subtle about the fact that you're standing in bad

    Getting over the habit of not paying attention to DBN shouldn't take more than one reset. If it does, someone needs to get on board or sit. That sounds harsh, but 'don't stand in fire' is the most basic raid principle out there.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-04-22 at 02:03 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Sure, they can call out 'watch for sand' but the RL cannot call out specific people's sand traps. That's what I mean. And I'm sorry, but it doesn't take much experience at all to get the hell out of things that are on the ground ESPECIALLY when DBM is yelling at them about it. Keep in mind that DBM is NOT subtle about the fact that you're standing in bad

    Getting over the habit of not paying attention to DBN shouldn't take more than one reset. If it does, someone needs to get on board or sit. That sounds harsh, but 'don't stand in fire' is the most basic raid principle out there.
    You're oversimplifying it my friend. Yeah in theory its easy, but if it really was so simple then nobody ever would wipe to it... which is clearly not the case as we can tell from just a cursory glance at these forums. I highly doubt you'll find any raider out there who deliberately just ignored DBM warnings. A far more likely scenario is that they don't have their DMB configured optimally so its screaming at them left and right about everything (including stuff they don't care about) and they just start ignoring it. Or even simpler, their attention is busy elsewhere.

    On a basic level you're right... standing in stuff is raiding 101 and needs to be done well in every raid there is. Period. People are just saying that while yes - in theory its simple to just say "well derp, don't be in the fire" - in practice it nontheless helps if the raid leaders call out reminders/warning (with 7 years of raid leading exp I can guarantee you it makes a difference even with good players on heroic modes) and it also helps if people get the right addons or at least properly configure the addons they do have. DBM and Bigwigs and such are infinitely more useful if optimized for each individual person.


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGage View Post
    ...On a basic level you're right... standing in stuff is raiding 101 and needs to be done well in every raid there is. Period. People are just saying that while yes - in theory its simple to just say "well derp, don't be in the fire" - in practice it nontheless helps if the raid leaders call out reminders/warning (with 7 years of raid leading exp I can guarantee you it makes a difference even with good players on heroic modes) and it also helps if people get the right addons or at least properly configure the addons they do have. DBM and Bigwigs and such are infinitely more useful if optimized for each individual person.
    But that's the point where everybody should care for himself. If you know you are likely to stand in stuff generate some message on your screen/sound that alarms you when you are doing it wrong. Weakauras would also help. You usually can also remove a lot of stuff from DBM if you are not raid lead and things get called out anyway.
    The next thing that really helps -> get all the blinking and shining stuff off your screen that you don't need. Only put the information there that you REALLY need everything else is just noise that your brain has to filter. I think the worst addons are these scrolling combat text addons bloating your screen with numbers over and over. I do also find those numbers fun, but you can't get any value out of them. You do have recount and you can also have WoL.

    It's always a question how passionate your raiders are and how they improve themselves.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGage View Post
    You're oversimplifying it my friend. Yeah in theory its easy, but if it really was so simple then nobody ever would wipe to it... which is clearly not the case as we can tell from just a cursory glance at these forums. I highly doubt you'll find any raider out there who deliberately just ignored DBM warnings. A far more likely scenario is that they don't have their DMB configured optimally so its screaming at them left and right about everything (including stuff they don't care about) and they just start ignoring it. Or even simpler, their attention is busy elsewhere.

    On a basic level you're right... standing in stuff is raiding 101 and needs to be done well in every raid there is. Period. People are just saying that while yes - in theory its simple to just say "well derp, don't be in the fire" - in practice it nontheless helps if the raid leaders call out reminders/warning (with 7 years of raid leading exp I can guarantee you it makes a difference even with good players on heroic modes) and it also helps if people get the right addons or at least properly configure the addons they do have. DBM and Bigwigs and such are infinitely more useful if optimized for each individual person.
    NO, NO, NO. I'm sorry but if someone is so bad that they cannot move out of things and repeatedly die to things that they're standing in, then they shouldn't raid. I dont' mean people who take the occasional tick of damage while finishing a cast or something but people who derp out and stand in fire (sand/void/poison, etc) long enough to die. Doing this very occasionally is excusable (lag, trying to get to the Orb, etc) but if you do this over and over, you shouldn't be raiding. It's not the RL's responsibility to hold your hand... "Now Johnny, you need to move out of the bad things...."

    DBM not configured? Give me a break. BY DEFAULT it yells at you to get out of things. If you've disabled those warnings, fine, but then it's even more clearly your responsibility to move.

    I'm sorry, but everyone in the raid the OP is running is a) level 90 and b) in the 2nd tier of this xpac. There's zero excuse for standing in things that hurt long enough to die. At some point, everyone needs to take responsibility for doing the basics and if they can't, they shouldn't be on the raid team. If they remain due to social reasons that's fine, but the team needs to realize that it's deliberately holding back progress because one or more people can't be bothered to do the basics well.

  20. #20
    Stood in the Fire PhillieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    462
    I'm going to chime in and say alot seems like raid awareness. Other tips; Make sure you burn down the "dangerous adds" fast, Wastewalkers on the first door. Venom Priests on the second, Frozen warlords on the third and beast shaman on the fourth. On the third door there is a bush which is slightly bigger, it's a nice place to stack and then if you need it put world markers to slowly move away from the door when orbs are out.

    As for healing with your setup I would recommend you have your disco go full atonement with the occasional shield for that 0.5 extra dps. 2 is better but I think they will be struggeling if you are having problems now. If things start to go haywire you still have that snuggleblanket of a third healer. They should not have that much to do on first and second door and then progressivly more and more.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •