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  1. #21
    It seems like a lot of your issues come from raid damage that can be mitigated, make sure that people arent standing in frozen orbs/venomous effusions/sand traps/lightning novas. Also, the poisons on door 2 can quickly add up to a lot of damage, so make sure that everyone who has a dispell or cleanse is using them, this save healers a lot of hardship and reduces the amount of damage that your raid is taking. I tank this as a protadin for my group and usually have Horridon on door 2 and make sure to use my cleanse whenever it comes off CD. Same thing with the diseases on door 3. Also, make sure you have assigned interrupts for the venom priests on door 2. You can see them in the stands before you even pull Horridon so you can mark them and sort out who is interrupting what before the fight even begins

    Also, since you have a DK on your team, have him pop Army of the Dead on the third door, they help to soak up the diseases and make things easier. Remember that the only adds you can control here are the frozen warlords. My team also found it effective to just stack on the add tank here and the add tank would start to kite whenever the circle for frozen orbs appeared. Like you we also got stuck on door 3 for a while before downing it, so we decided to use hero here to make sure that the priority adds died quickly so that we spent as little time on this door as possible.

    Overall just make sure your dps are prioritizing the right targets and not just aoeing everything down, and make sure everyones aware of things that they may or may not be standing in. Honestly my team found the 3rd door to be the toughest part of this fight, and when we finally got it down we easily cleared the rest of the fight. Good luck downing him!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    NO, NO, NO. I'm sorry but if someone is so bad that they cannot move out of things and repeatedly die to things that they're standing in, then they shouldn't raid. I dont' mean people who take the occasional tick of damage while finishing a cast or something but people who derp out and stand in fire (sand/void/poison, etc) long enough to die. Doing this very occasionally is excusable (lag, trying to get to the Orb, etc) but if you do this over and over, you shouldn't be raiding. It's not the RL's responsibility to hold your hand... "Now Johnny, you need to move out of the bad things...."
    Blood Legion's raid leader does it - watch their Ra-den video, its on the front page. Most good raider leaders do it. If you're not calling stuff out as a raid leader its not because you have good raiders, its because you're a shitty raid leader. Even the best players can make use of reminders during progression. Lower tier raiders even more so.

    DBM not configured? Give me a break. BY DEFAULT it yells at you to get out of things. If you've disabled those warnings, fine, but then it's even more clearly your responsibility to move.
    By default DBM makes noises and warnings and bars for nearly everything in the fight, including stuff that has nothing to do with a DPSer. In fact 2/3 of the stuff is probably irrelevant to the DPSer in question.

    I'm sorry, but everyone in the raid the OP is running is a) level 90 and b) in the 2nd tier of this xpac. There's zero excuse for standing in things that hurt long enough to die. At some point, everyone needs to take responsibility for doing the basics and if they can't, they shouldn't be on the raid team. If they remain due to social reasons that's fine, but the team needs to realize that it's deliberately holding back progress because one or more people can't be bothered to do the basics well.
    What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Since when is leveling to 90 any help whatsoever in teaching you how to raid? An AI bot could level in this game, literally. I've raided for over 16 tiers in this game if you could all the .5s. I still stand in shit and die on occasion. I know for a fact you do too. I know everyone does, shit happens and people fuck up. Stop being such an elitist douche about it.

    Its a fuck up. The people who did it clearly know they fucked up. They know there is no excuse for them to fuck up in that way and that they should stop doing it in order to kill the boss. Doesn't mean they're not fit to keep raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    But that's the point where everybody should care for himself. If you know you are likely to stand in stuff generate some message on your screen/sound that alarms you when you are doing it wrong. Weakauras would also help. You usually can also remove a lot of stuff from DBM if you are not raid lead and things get called out anyway.
    The next thing that really helps -> get all the blinking and shining stuff off your screen that you don't need. Only put the information there that you REALLY need everything else is just noise that your brain has to filter. I think the worst addons are these scrolling combat text addons bloating your screen with numbers over and over. I do also find those numbers fun, but you can't get any value out of them. You do have recount and you can also have WoL.

    It's always a question how passionate your raiders are and how they improve themselves.
    ^ Exactly this. DBM can be as much a burden as it is helpful if you don't configure it properly.

    Its once again not as simple as "derp you have DBM if you stood in anything with DBM you suck never raid again".

    Those mistakes WILL happen during progression. But a motivated raider will take the steps to not make those mistakes a 2nd time.
    Last edited by RavenGage; 2013-04-25 at 04:13 AM.


  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by RavenGage View Post
    Blood Legion's raid leader does it - watch their Ra-den video, its on the front page. Most good raider leaders do it. If you're not calling stuff out as a raid leader its not because you have good raiders, its because you're a shitty raid leader. Even the best players can make use of reminders during progression. Lower tier raiders even more so.
    And as I've said, it's fine for the RL to say "sand traps up, watch it". The RL should not have to say "Ravengage, you're in a trap, MOVE!" That's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

    By default DBM makes noises and warnings and bars for nearly everything in the fight, including stuff that has nothing to do with a DPSer. In fact 2/3 of the stuff is probably irrelevant to the DPSer in question.
    Irrelevant. For the encounter in question, DBM very clearly tells you that you're near each of the 'on the ground' threats. You have to be an idiot not to see these.

    What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Since when is leveling to 90 any help whatsoever in teaching you how to raid? An AI bot could level in this game, literally. I've raided for over 16 tiers in this game if you could all the .5s. I still stand in shit and die on occasion. I know for a fact you do too. I know everyone does, shit happens and people fuck up. Stop being such an elitist douche about it.
    If you've raided that much and you die more than very occasionally to shit on the ground, you suck. Again AS I SAID (read the damn thread, I said this on page 1), everyone fucks up occasionally. That's not what these logs are showing. They're showing people dying regularly to shit on the ground. Expecting people to not do that 95%+ of the time isn't being elitist, it's expecting some decent, baseline play.

    Its a fuck up. The people who did it clearly know they fucked up. They know there is no excuse for them to fuck up in that way and that they should stop doing it in order to kill the boss. Doesn't mean they're not fit to keep raiding.
    If they know they fucked up and stop doing it, yes. If, week after week, they continue to stand in shit and die, they shouldn't be in the raid. I'd give people 1, maybe 2 resets (not evenings, I'm assuming 2-3 nights a week, so 4-6 evenings) and then I'd expect them to be in the habit of moving out of things.

    DBM can be as much a burden as it is helpful if you don't configure it properly.
    It's fine out of the box for me, especially on the Horridon fight. If someone has issues with the configuration take a little time and reconfigure it. Ignoring the tools because you can't be bothered to spend 20 mins setting them up is just a poor attitude.
    Its once again not as simple as "derp you have DBM if you stood in anything with DBM you suck never raid again".

    Those mistakes WILL happen during progression. But a motivated raider will take the steps to not make those mistakes a 2nd time.
    You know, read the damn thread. I've been pretty clear here but you're replying to shit I've not said. In fact, your last sentence agrees with me - a good raider will minimize this. However, if a raider continues to make the same, basic mistake reset after reset they're not a good raider. I've NEVER SAID to bench or kick someone for a single evening. What I've been saying is that people who do this routinely don't belong in the raid. Read that again since you seem to skim things. ROUTINELY. Reset after reset. Not very occasionally.

    I'm sorry, but by time you're in the second tier of an xpac, there's just no damn excuse for repeatedly failing to move out of bad shit. Defending people who fail in this way time and again is silly. Hell, you started off noting that people were repeatedly dying to traps.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-04-25 at 04:36 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Hell, you started off noting that people were repeatedly dying to traps.
    Yeah and I gave him examples and advice on ways to help his raiders make the fight easier and reduce the amount of shit on the ground.

    It more or less seems we're on the same page as far as raiding albeit worded differently. Yours came off as fairly harsh when I first read it and we went from there. Going back I see you actually gave advice and help before snapping at him about the DBM thing and it wasn't as harsh as my initial impression.

    I pretty much agree with everything you've said except maybe DBM. I guess I should updated mine more because it definitely doesn't work as well as all that, I switched to Bigwigs recently precisely because DBM wasn't as much help as I wanted it to be.


  5. #25
    But.... but now we can't fight?!!! Oh fine.

    And yes, I was harsh ( I even pre-apologized for it), but having led raids where, time after time, the same people would die to fully avoidable damage, I just don't have patience for it anymore. The problem is that it's an individual fail that wastes the time of others. I'm thinking of low percentage wipes where a DPS dying early to stuff on the ground would have added enough dps to kill the boss... instead, we all get to run back and do it again. I'm also sensitive to this because I only raid 2 nights a week for 3 hours a night so even a couple of wipes that take a total of 15 mins per fight (including run back and rebuff time) is a noticeable impact on the amount of raiding we do. Plus, frankly, it's so EASY to get out of things on the ground. I use DBM, but Bigwigs is fine as is GTFO. But with the alert addons we have, the excuse of "I didn't know" just isn't credible anymore.

  6. #26
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Just thought I'd put in an update and thank all of you for your help. We haven't raided since I posted this, but tonight we managed to kill Horridon and it wasn't a messy kill. We still used 3 healers for that attempt, but we tried out almost all the tactics here and it worked well for our group. Used heroism and army on third door, pre-marked venom adds for interrupt assignments before pulling (didn't realize we could do that), and I had everyone configure their DBMs to only alert them of stuffs like charge and oreos on the ground. At the second and third door we slowly edge towards the next door to avoid poison and orbs, which also worked very well.

    On the council! (heard that's a hard one too)

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  7. #27
    Yay Fhi!

    WE're killing COuncil but we only have 2 kills and what's worked well for us is the stacking strat outlined in a thread here in the raid forums. The real key for us is to get Sul down quickly when he empowers so that empower moves to Frost King ASAP and you only have to deal with maybe 1 Sandstorm. When he casts it, stack on him, AOE and them move apart because otherwise you'll be in a sand trap (quicksand). BTW, someone might have Biting COld which is an AOE damage thing. If they do, obviously they cant stack.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    On the council! (heard that's a hard one too)
    Most of them are harder than Horridon from here on out. You'll catch a break on Ji-kun, maybe on Primordius, Animus and Twins... but pretty much every fight will require the same things you did here.

    If you take the time on each boss to research the bosses and configure your DBMs it'll expedite your progress a lot. For example on Council, make sure you're 100% aware of Quicksand, Biting Cold, Frostbite and the Loa Spirits.


  9. #29
    While I can't give your raid as a whole much valuable advice, I can give your hunter a few tips.

    -First and foremost, take OFF explosive trap from your bars. Black Arrow Horridon on CD and keep up a serpent sting via multi-shot on all of the adds.

    -Take Barrage, the talent, while used properly (i.e. face toward the adds and boss) will provide much more DPS than glaive toss ever will.

    -I'm also having a hard time understanding while your auto shot damage is your 2nd hardest hitting ability, unless your just spamming multi-shot.. which is something you DO NOT want to be doing. Horridon is primarily a single target fight, meaning you must burst down specific mobs before their debuffs become too overwhelming. Kill order goes as followed: Dinomancer (>50%) > Big Add (i.e. Wastewalker, Venompriest, Frost Lord, Warbear/Beast Shaman) > Small Adds (which can be aoe'd) > Horridon.


    I'll update if I can think of anything else, I will also attach a link to my guild's most recent kill.. excuse my DPS, I was trying something different this week.

    WoL: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2017&e=2555
    ^ I know it's heroic, but atleast you can get a vague idea of what I am prioritizing, and who I am casting it on.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahraa View Post
    While I can't give your raid as a whole much valuable advice, I can give your hunter a few tips.

    -First and foremost, take OFF explosive trap from your bars. Black Arrow Horridon on CD and keep up a serpent sting via multi-shot on all of the adds.
    Bad advice. Not so much for Horridon, but Trap is useful if you stack Council. Better advice.. know when to use Trap vs BA.
    -Take Barrage, the talent, while used properly (i.e. face toward the adds and boss) will provide much more DPS than glaive toss ever will.

    -I'm also having a hard time understanding while your auto shot damage is your 2nd hardest hitting ability, unless your just spamming multi-shot.. which is something you DO NOT want to be doing. Horridon is primarily a single target fight, meaning you must burst down specific mobs before their debuffs become too overwhelming. Kill order goes as followed: Dinomancer (>50%) > Big Add (i.e. Wastewalker, Venompriest, Frost Lord, Warbear/Beast Shaman) > Small Adds (which can be aoe'd) > Horridon.
    Agreed

    Fhi - one thing people can do to help out is to remember that they can swtich single talents. For example, on Jinrokh my hunter takes the tier 1 talent that reduces the Deterrence CD. That means Deterrence is up for every Lightning Storm if I need it. However, on Council I take Posthaste which makes my Disengage break roots and snares. This means that if I get rooted in a sand trap I don't need a dispell to get out of it - I can escape myself. I'd encourage everyone to think about talents in light of fight mechanics and to keep a stack of Tomes on hand so they can switch on a per fight basis.

    One thing that can trip people up... When Frost King is empowered (shadowy) on Council, someone will ger Frostbite. Others need to stack with that person or they will die. However, if that spell is cast when any other Council member is empowered, it's called Biting Cold and will HURT anyone else. The graphics is precisely the same. So, have the person on whom the spell is cast call out what they have (Clev has Frostbite, stack or Clev has Biting Cold, stay away).

  11. #31
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Fhi - one thing people can do to help out is to remember that they can swtich single talents. For example, on Jinrokh my hunter takes the tier 1 talent that reduces the Deterrence CD. That means Deterrence is up for every Lightning Storm if I need it. However, on Council I take Posthaste which makes my Disengage break roots and snares. This means that if I get rooted in a sand trap I don't need a dispell to get out of it - I can escape myself. I'd encourage everyone to think about talents in light of fight mechanics and to keep a stack of Tomes on hand so they can switch on a per fight basis.
    Agreed. I have reminded them to take a good hard look at every talent and ability in their spellbooks and think about them - none of them does any pvp, so a lot of "pvp-ish" talents and abilities just get overlooked. I am also starting to study every class' spellbook and talent tree and try to see what I can recommend. They still need a little hand holding, but they've been really receptive to trying new things, so I'm happy to do some legwork for them.

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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Agreed. I have reminded them to take a good hard look at every talent and ability in their spellbooks and think about them - none of them does any pvp, so a lot of "pvp-ish" talents and abilities just get overlooked. I am also starting to study every class' spellbook and talent tree and try to see what I can recommend. They still need a little hand holding, but they've been really receptive to trying new things, so I'm happy to do some legwork for them.
    One thing people forget is that even between trash and boss talent swapping can be good. For example, Barrage can be dangerous on Tortos trash (it's a 120degree frontal cone and if you're facing JUST wrong you can pull the other group of bats), so a hunter might want to swap to Glaive Toss there. But on the boss, Barrage can be useful. So you might end up doing this... Glaive Toss on Jinrokh... Barrage on the trash after that and on Horridon...Barrage on trash to Council and on Council... Gliave toss on Tortos trash to be safe... Barrage on the boss fight. That's a bit overkill, but not by a great deal

  13. #33
    Lots of stuff to read, too much, here's my tips:

    - If you're having trouble on the first door, then skip this fight til you get geared up (try doing ji-kun first), nobody should be dying to anything on the first door, sand traps have an animation before they start doing damage, just move from it.

    - Make sure everyone has a spirit dino macro, makes the fight considerably easier and takes no time at all

    - Some points of the fight you will have to aoe, others you won't, ideally you want to burn down the first "elite" add, then aoe the rest, until the dino mancer comes up, single target him until he drops the orb and turns into a dino, then go back to aoe or burning the main elites

    - Don't use any dps CD's on the first door at all, besides things that have a 1 min to 90 sec cool down, it's much better to use them on the second door as soon as the first venom priest pops. If you burn it down before you get an effusion, this door is a lot easier as you got a lot less to worry about for interrupts - you want to make sure certain people are assigned to certain interrupts

    - The second and third venomancer spawn at the same time, have you horridon tank pick up one, they do very low damage and the tank can actually get in some good dps due to vengeance, but more importantly, can interrupt. Have yoru other tank and all the other dps on the other venomancer, again, if you can kill it before it spawns an effusion, this phase will be a lot easier, if not, you may have some difficulty. The melee adds do hurt, but letting the priests go unchecked will do a lot more damage over time.

    - Third door can be tough just because the diseases do so much damage, make sure your tank gives himself a very large kite path for orbs, and possibly double back if you can, as you don't want them anywhere near the 4th door. It may be a good idea to have one ranged burn down the little adds as that disease can be nasty. Burning down the dinomancer here fast is crucial, did I mention you want a ranged dps for interrupts and make sure the boss can't heal horridon for more than a second. Easy to say all that, but this door can be tough.

    - Fourth door, my raid used lust here, made the phase a lot easier. If you don't, you want to try to make sure only one bear rider is dismounted at a time, and that anyone that can dispel the curse does so (check recount for dispels obviously). Your big CD's should be up, you want to use them on the bears and the riders and the dinomancer, but having one melee dps focus on the fire casters is a good idea, they do a lot of damage if left unchecked but can die pretty fast. I'd strongly recommend using lust here and using pots for the warlord. Misdirects are very helpful at this door.

    - Warlord - pop any dps pots or CD's you have, this guy needs to die before his 4th shout (unless your raid is awesome with spreading out survival CD's). A lot of groups use lust here, but if you are smart with CD usage this guy is do-able without it. Make sure your spirit dino is knocked FAR back before he spawns so you got good uptime on him.

    - Lastly you got horridon enraged, the only person that will take damage is the tanks, aside from the spirit call mechanic, but that only happens every minute and between self CD's, health stones, raid cd's, as long as the tank can be kept up this shouldn't be hard. If you're tank doesn't have much stam or can't take hits too well, you may want him to switch out some gems or trinkets, as horridon goes into beast mode here (hits VERY VERY hard).

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