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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthan View Post
    You gem 480 crit. It's worth more than 320 strength. You can't just compare 320 strength to 320 crit and ignore the fact that using a strength JC gem means you're not using a crit gem.
    Yup I just woke up and did the math wrong in my head. Was thinking with crits new SEP it'd change something, but it didn't (since I mathed wrong.) 960 crit>640 strength, although that gap closes if you get a few good socket bonuses that you'd otherwise ignore (meaning situationlly strength might be worth using EG in tier chest/gloves if you'd otherwise be ignoring but im too lazy to math it out to see if it is actually better since I'm not a JC on my warrior anyway)

  2. #22
    Dreadlord I Knew It's Avatar
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    Been gemming crit since the pre-patch for MoP yo

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  4. #24
    You gem crit over strength because the crit gem gives 320 crit where as the strength gem only gives 160 strength.

    Each crit point gives around 0.8 dps and each strength point gives right above 1.0 iirc (this was early MoP, havent played since ppl killed Sha).

    0.8 * 320 = 256 dps and 1.0 * 160 = 160 dps

    which means that each crit gem gives 96 more dps.

    This however does not apply when theres a juicy strength setbonus or the sha touched 500 str gem.
    Bang bang

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    You're playing a warrior poorly than. Execute phase for TG/SMF IS THE EXACT SAME. Execute is the highest DGCD ability. After all CDs are out, your execute phase is just this: 1.) Execute to prevent rage cap (instead of unbuffed WS pre execute) 2.) BT on CD (except during a CS phase) 3.) RB as they proc (except during 1 or 2 or during a CS) 4.) BT-CS-EX-EX-EX-EX while enraged instead of BT-CS-RB-BT-RB-RB.

    Also, you should be gemming +320 str as a JC instead of +480 crit. At no point this current tier is the SEP of crit greater than one. As a result, +320 more strength will always be better than +320 more crit.
    Thank you very much, but I do know "how to play fury". I don't care if the "execute phase is exactly same" if the numbers aren't there for me. AND BELIVE ME, I've tested those on many fights, cursing on myself how execute now sucks if the stars wont align. I still try to do execute and mostly save recklessness for it, but it saddens me to see 10-20% crit on my execute every time (haha). Probably one of the reasons my execute won't usually get past 5% when the fight ends (exept on jinrok and horridon obviously).

    And that's how I've been doing it, CS+4xEX, BT+RB when CS is not available - usually have to apply berserker rage on the middle if CS doesn't crit and apply enrage, since it would fall off on the 3rd execute. Also my gear Simcraft still says crit is ~3.2, while strength shows at ~2.8 so maybe not?

    Although now reading your other post shows that you just mathed it wrong, so no worries.
    Last edited by Kankipappa; 2013-04-21 at 10:51 PM.

  6. #26
    If you say execute sucks now, then you clearly do not know how to play Fury.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kankipappa View Post
    Thank you very much, but I do know "how to play fury". I don't care if the "execute phase is exactly same" if the numbers aren't there for me. AND BELIVE ME, I've tested those on many fights, cursing on myself how execute now sucks. I still try to do execute and mostly save recklessness for it, but it saddens me to see 10-20% crit on my execute every time (haha). Probably one of the reasons my execute won't usually get past 5% when the fight ends (exept on jinrok and horridon obviously).

    And that's how I've been doing it, CS+4xEX, BT+RB when CS is not available - usually have to apply berserker rage on the middle if CS doesn't crit and apply enrage, since it would fall off on the 3rd execute. Also my gear Simcraft still says crit is ~3.2, while strenght shows at ~2.8 so maybe not, do you take me for a fool? When I'll get over 30% crit and get new weapons, that switch might happen though.
    No offense mate, but from what you're posting its clear you aren't playing fury correctly. Execute should be fairly high percentage wise of your DPS. Just looking over mine it's at least 11% on the fights I checked. You need to be saving all CDs for use at least once during execute is one thing you're not doing from what your writing. You don't "mostly" save execute for it, you "ALWAYS" save reck for it.

    Tl;DR execute doesn't suck, unless you misuse it.

    Also, checking your logs I don't see fights where execute is doing less than 5%, so I'm not sure where you're getting that.

    I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you. It's simply that you're either exaggerating/misinterpreting how little execute damage is for you, or playing wrong. There really is no other option- unless its a weird fight where you aren't executing or something (such as being dead)

  8. #28
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    Well okay.

    Still, I think both of you (Brakthir/Darkfriend) are now overlooking the fact that being SMF and TG there is a ton of difference on executes total damage precent. You both obviously also are playing as SMF. 35% scaling difference is kinda huge, especially with cooldown usage. I remember my best roll has been around 12% when I had 3 trinket procs in a row, so I could execute on every CS with ~90K-100K AP. I know tortos is not a good example of a fight where execute % would be even good to compare due to aoe, but still last week... Whopping 3.1% (for an example).

    Next roll with good amount of crits on Megaera 10m normal, I got it around 10%, because I could execute on every head (obv). Still the sad thing was, that when I'm looking at the damage done graph on WoL, on execute range the burst is not even tiny bit higher than before getting to 20% with CS+RB(+HS)+BT+RB(+HS)+RB(+HS). On Lei shen I got it to whopping 7.8%, with no burst dps being any higher than before sub 20%. Got way higher burst on start and midfight with again just RB+HS. So in most cases i'm just trading of the rotation with no real benefit on total dps on my part.

    Last tier my execute could have been anywhere from 15 to 18% easily without any praying for the "RPPM gods" for those trinkets to proc. =P
    Last edited by Kankipappa; 2013-04-21 at 11:27 PM.

  9. #29
    Uh, no. There isn't a ton of difference between SMF and TG execute %. Both fights you stated are horrible examples considering Tortos is a ton of AOE and Maegera, the head's don't last long enough for proper execute usage. Lei Shen is also a ton of aoe.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Uh, no. There isn't a ton of difference between SMF and TG execute %. Both fights you stated are horrible examples considering Tortos is a ton of AOE and Maegera, the head's don't last long enough for proper execute usage. Lei Shen is also a ton of aoe.
    I don't want this to escalate any further, but last tier it could have been easily 200-300k extra damage for each SMF execute, for say if TG's execute went for 700k, SMF had over 1 million executes on that point, because of that 35% bonus. Are you saying that they removed (or should I say, fixed) now the extra +35% from SMF execute? Didn't really catch that one yet. Good to know then.

    Yes I know, horrible examples. Hard to find good examples on this tier actually. Because I can't find a graph where I would perfectly see when I'm executing or not, since most fights got more than 1 target to chew on. Also since the graph is not showing any real jumps during any <20% phases (except horridon, doh). Lei shen also has aoe only going from phase 2, so if my damage is generally the same or higher from pure single target from 100% to 65% than from 30% to 0%, you're saying it doesn't really mean/tell anything?

    Still I think the actual % of the ability is irrelevant, if it won't show any real benefit on actual DPS while using the ability... and usually it doesn't show on mine WoL graphs anymore, unlike last tier.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kankipappa View Post
    I don't want this to escalate any further, but last tier it could have been easily 200-300k extra damage for each SMF execute, for say if TG's execute went for 700k, SMF had over 1 million executes on that point, because of that 35% bonus. Are you saying that they removed (or should I say, fixed) now the extra +35% from SMF execute? Didn't really catch that one yet. Good to know then.

    Yes I know, horrible examples. Hard to find good examples on this tier actually. Because I can't find a graph where I would perfectly see when I'm executing or not, since most fights got more than 1 target to chew on. Also since the graph is not showing any real jumps during any <20% phases (except horridon, doh). Lei shen also has aoe only going from phase 2, so if my damage is generally the same or higher from pure single target from 100% to 65% than from 30% to 0%, you're saying it doesn't really mean/tell anything?

    Still I think the actual % of the ability is irrelevant, if it won't show any real benefit on actual DPS while using the ability... and usually it doesn't show on mine WoL graphs anymore, unlike last tier.
    The difference between SMF and TG execute is TotalAP as TG minus (Total AP as SMF+35%). Since TG is naturally going to have more AP (due to higher strength on 2h weapons) the difference between SMF and TG execute will never be more than 35%. That's counteracted by TGs damage outside of execute phase, so it remains academic.

    At this point I'm not sure how we got from you handling your execute phase wrong to SMF v TG execute phase - which doesn't matter since they play the exact same.

    Not to mention, execute is always a phase you'll do more damage during than outside of it. So you're wrong about the "actual DPS benefit" part. At this point I'm just going to go with you're playing your class poorly, or you don't know how to play the class.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Not to mention, execute is always a phase you'll do more damage during than outside of it. So you're wrong about the "actual DPS benefit" part. At this point I'm just going to go with you're playing your class poorly, or you don't know how to play the class.
    Okay then, probably a misunderstanding. Call it a language barrier if nothing else.

    Like you just said yourself Darkfriend, TG's weaker execute is counteracted by having more damage outside execute phase - what was kinda my point from the start. In my humble opinion it just has come to the point for me that outside the execute, TG's damage is very close if not even the same as just being in a actual execute rotation - while that is not true for SMF, or even for Arms. There might still be a slight benefit, but it's mostly not even noticeable anymore, on dpsmeters or on logs, so in theory you COULD just ignore using it and not even look bad.

    Or well, I could always blame my trinkets, haha. Not like there is any challenge to mostly just pool rage with BT+(RB/free WS) for each CS+execute*4, while preventing rage cap with executes. Actually some blizzard blue said on last tier, that if execute did like 20% of your total dps, you weren't handling your dps rotation prior the execute well enough. I'm only usually behind 8-10k for my Simcraft's patchwerk numbers at single target fights where movement occurs, so am I really a poor player then? Maybe I am.
    Last edited by Kankipappa; 2013-04-22 at 01:06 AM.

  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    No, if you ignored execute your DPS would suffer. A lot.

  14. #34
    As SMF, execute is still a noticeable dps increase post 5.2 nerf.

    Especially if you align your damage CDs and procs. Reck+skull+BB+DR+pot > CS > 5x execute.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    No, if you ignored execute your DPS would suffer. A lot.
    This there is many times where im not on my top 5 recount until the execute phase then I shoot up from 7th to 3rd ish

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Herkaleez View Post
    This there is many times where im not on my top 5 recount until the execute phase then I shoot up from 7th to 3rd ish
    I don't doubt execute is a DPS gain, but almost the exact same thing would happen if it was DPS neutral and you were holding all your cooldowns for it.

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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    I don't doubt execute is a DPS gain, but almost the exact same thing would happen if it was DPS neutral and you were holding all your cooldowns for it.
    No it wouldn't. Execute is the highest DPGCD ability, meaning that not only does it do the most damage during the CD phase but you get the most extra damage by using CDs during execute.

    Yes, you're dps goes up during CDs and during CS, but to compare execute+CDs and normal+CDs and say they yield even similar DPS gains is asinine. The limiting factor to execute is it's high rage cost.

  18. #38
    Your damage goes up during cooldowns, and goes down outside of cooldowns. Naturally if you hold your cooldowns for a longer period of time your DPS will reach a lower point before you activate them during Execute than if you had not held those cooldowns at all.

    Like I said, not doubting Execute is a DPS gain (or holding your CDs for it for that matter), but saying "Holding my CDs for execute makes my DPS jump up, therefore Execute is a DPS gain" is a total logical fallacy.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-04-22 at 01:45 AM.

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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Your damage goes up during cooldowns, and goes down outside of cooldowns. Naturally if you hold your cooldowns for a longer period of time your DPS will reach a lower point before you activate them during Execute than if you had not held those cooldowns at all.

    Like I said, not doubting Execute is a DPS gain (or holding your CDs for it for that matter), but saying "Holding my CDs for execute makes my DPS jump up, therefore Execute is a DPS gain" is a total logical fallacy.
    Hold CDs for execute is a DPS gain is a DPS gain because it's true, not because I said it is. It may not be valid (which is the word you're looking for) from a logical argument standpoint, but I didn't couch it in logically correct format because in this case it doesn't matter.

    1.) Holding DPS CDs is at times a DPS benefit over using them immediately. TRUE.

    2.) Holding DPS CDs in order to align them is, when done correctly, a DPS increase. TRUE

    3.) Holding DPS CDs for the correct amount of time in order to have them available for the longest amount of time during an execute phase is, if done correctly, a DPS increase over not doing so. TRUE

    THEREFORE, when done correctly, holding DPS CDs for execute phase is a DPS gain.

    This is valid, but whether or not it's true depends on a number of factors (there are many undefined or ambiguous terms and usages.)

    Saying, using DPS CDs correctly and during execute will yield a higher DPS gain compared to not doing so is true, and is no way predicated upon because I said so. Rather, it's true because it can be tested and proved, and therfore will remain true regardless of how it is phrased, or the validity of the phrasing.

    TL;DR truth is not predicated upon validity. Tale the following

    All men are mortal
    Socrates is mortal
    Therefore, Socrates is a man.

    It's true that Socrates is a man, but the argument is invalid.


    Oh, one last thing, I never said what you quoted. I said DPS jumps during CDs, which should be self apparent. If you want to go into what I said after that, it was that comparing CDS+execute and CDs+normal rotation the former is better. I said not that one is predicated upon the other. I wouldn't argue about logical fallacies when you construct a straw man to try and argue against a stance.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-04-22 at 02:05 AM.

  20. #40
    Why do you have to make it so complicated...

    Our cooldowns increase our damage by a percentage => using them during a time where we deal higher damage (i.e. execute phase) will result in about the same %-increase but a much bigger absolute increase.

    And now be friends and keep your warrior beard in shape

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