Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
... LastLast
  1. #21
    The Horde Rebellion IS an internal matter. The war against Garrosh in a broader sense is not though. I agree that after multiple Ashenvale invasions (Wolfheart and Cata quests), invading Gilneas, bombing Theramore etc, going after Garrosh is just as much if not more a part of their story than the Horde, who are only just now being pushed to full on rebellion. So you're right, cutting the Alliance out of Garrosh's end and making it a Horde only story would be terrible.

    Not sure I agree about making an Alliance camp in Durotar though. Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE for blizz to add in a couple more quests, with us sabotaging the Kor'kron war effort against the Darkspear, not only bringing them supplies but also weakening them directly, giving the alliance more content. But I don't think that the Alliance setting up a camp, even small, in Durotar would make much sense. Really the only problem I have with 5.3 is the alliance needs a couple more quests working against the Kor'kron.


    I will disagree with one part of the OP though. Varian is very interested in what's going on in Durotar. He even sends a letter to you after you finish there, following the si 7 reports closely. But he's a king, not a spy, not an si 7 agent, why the heck would the high king of the alliance be on a small scouting mission instead of, for example, securing more dwarven troops for his war against Garrosh? That's like asking why Garrosh isn't picking his new toy up in person in the Vale, guy's got other things to be doing right now.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    The Horde Rebellion IS an internal matter. The war against Garrosh in a broader sense is not though.
    I agree with this.

    The Alliance see Garrosh as the leader of the machine that is smashing them, as a lifelong enemy, he must be stopped. Status quo.

    The Horde see Garrosh as a hot headed youngster who has alienated everyone around him and they need to remove him. Enter a rebellion.

    To me, Vol'Jin, Baine, and Lor'themar should never even consider the Alliance for assistance, as they are the hated enemy and if you let them in, you are jeopardizing your own people. The "enemy of my enemy is my friend" does not work here.

    On the flip side, the Alliance would be foolish not to capitalize on the inner turmoil. Offer some assistance, weapons etc, just try not to offer personnel. Let your enemy fight amongst themselves, kill themselves and when the rebellion jumps off, prepare to strike.

  3. #23
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,765
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Time and time again, I see people pointing out that that horde rebelion is "Interlal matter". Why do they say that? It is clearly not.
    how is it not?
    Is Garrosh not the Warchief of the Horde? Are Horde not killing other Horde?
    Sounds like an internal conflict
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  4. #24
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    European Union
    Posts
    9,090
    The rebellion sort of is an internal matter, though the war against Garrosh is not.

    What I wanted to see was Alliance ... something. What I mean is that we're told the Alliance have been preparing forces to assault Orgrimmar for some time... ok, where are they? Because I can't see them anywhere.

    So, even if we gave stuff to Vol'jin, we should have also gotten 4 quests:
    1. You are sent by Varian to Darnassus to ask for help debarking near Durotar.
    2. You are then sent to Ironforge to ask the gnomes for some of those infra-green devices for the boats and for some steam tanks to help protect the camp from the dwarves.
    3. You return to Stormwind, and are sent in this covert operation with known members of the 7th Legion on a human ship with night elven archers and some druids, human footmen and two steam tanks on it. It's cloaked.
    4. You land at Tiregarde Keep, see orcs appeared there, the small band of adventurers attacks them with you. The area phases with night elven druids having grown some walls around the camp from some shrub-like plants to conceal stuff, archers sit on towers, footmen around the gates and one steam tank at each gate. Then and only then you're sent with the mechano-cat and to help Vol'jin later. Also the commander of the 7th legion says that you might need to go to the other races to ask for their help soon as well (hinting to the trials of the High King for draenei, worgen and gnomes).
    How much could it have taken them to implement something like this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    how is it not?
    Is Garrosh not the Warchief of the Horde? Are Horde not killing other Horde?
    Sounds like an internal conflict
    Ok, who is Garrosh killing? Horde and Alliance. Garrosh is not only your internal matter. The rebellion might be, but taking down Garrosh is not.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    Ok, who is Garrosh killing? Horde and Alliance. Garrosh is not only your internal matter. The rebellion might be, but taking down Garrosh is not.
    True. But Dreknar never said it was, only that there is an internal conflict.


    Anyway, of course the horde rebellion is an internal matter, otherwise it wouldn't be a rebellion. That external forces are aiding the rebellion doesn't change that.

  6. #26
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Beach City
    Posts
    8,665
    My main is a troll shaman. I've been waiting four years to kill Garrosh after what he did to Vol'jin, my favorite character.

    I understand why Vol'jin seeks alliance assistance, but I still feel that it should be the Horde that deal the final blow. Preferably Vol'jin, delivering on his promise to kill Garrosh when he leasts expects it.

  7. #27
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,765
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    Ok, who is Garrosh killing? Horde and Alliance. Garrosh is not only your internal matter. The rebellion might be, but taking down Garrosh is not.
    the whole point of the rebellion is to oust Garrosh
    Just because the Alliance have a similar goal dsnt change that
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  8. #28
    Can anyone tell me when we will see the next quarters subscribers?

  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans FuxieDK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    København
    Posts
    2,725
    Anyone with a bit of a rational mind will NEVER say disposing of Garrosh is anything but an internal Horde matter..

    Theramore.. Attempting to kill Wrynn Jr. Etc etc etc..
    Yes yes, it's horrible.. Buhu.. But that's how war is.. But that doesn't give alliance any claim to the killing blow of Garrosh.. If they manage to win the Horde-Alliance war some day, they can court marshall him, but that's about it...

    Caging trolls... Assasinating Caine.. More or less turning goblins into slaves.. Not standing by Belfs when Jaina went insane...
    All this is unexcusable acts of treason, murder and human(oid) trafficing.. For this, every Horde race have claims tothe killing blow of Garrosh..
    Last edited by FuxieDK; 2013-04-22 at 09:39 AM.

  10. #30
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sofia/Bulgaria
    Posts
    4,059
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    how is it not?
    Is Garrosh not the Warchief of the Horde? Are Horde not killing other Horde?
    Sounds like an internal conflict
    Read the whole post and you might understand, instead on focusing on the first line.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 10:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Anyone with a bit of a rational mind will NEVER say disposing of Garrosh is anything but an internal Horde matter..

    Theramore.. Attempting to kill Wrynn Jr. Etc etc etc..
    Yes yes, it's horrible.. Buhu.. But that's how war is.. But that doesn't give alliance any claim to the killing blow of Garrosh.. If they manage to win the Horde-Alliance war some day, they can court marshall him, but that's about it...

    Caging trolls... Assasinating Caine.. More or less turning goblins into slaves.. Not standing by Belfs when Jaina went insane...
    All this is unexcusable acts of treason, murder and human(oid) trafficing.. For this, every Horde race have claims tothe killing blow of Garrosh..
    Killing the enemy is war aswell. And Garrosh is one of the biggest if not the biggest enemies of the alliance now.
    This isnt about who has the right to kill Garrosh. Right now, everyone has the right to kill him. This is about why the heck the alliance arent doing anything except helping the trolls in a minor way.

  11. #31
    Consider this: why would we even want to remove Garrosh at this time?

    Of course, he will have to go eventually. But right now, he's occupied with a full-scale uprising in his own backyard. And the longer the rebellion drags on, the more weakened the Horde will be when it's finally over, regardless of who wins.

    Maxim 29: "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less." Just because Garrosh happens to be in charge of the Horde at the moment doesn't mean it won't be a threat anymore once he's gone. We should be trying to slay the hydra, not chop off its current head just for it to grow a new one.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Anyone with a bit of a rational mind will NEVER say disposing of Garrosh is anything but an internal Horde matter..

    Theramore.. Attempting to kill Wrynn Jr. Etc etc etc..
    Yes yes, it's horrible.. Buhu.. But that's how war is.. But that doesn't give alliance any claim to the killing blow of Garrosh.. If they manage to win the Horde-Alliance war some day, they can court marshall him, but that's about it...

    Caging trolls... Assasinating Caine.. More or less turning goblins into slaves.. Not standing by Belfs when Jaina went insane...
    All this is unexcusable acts of treason, murder and human(oid) trafficing.. For this, every Horde race have claims tothe killing blow of Garrosh..
    lol, assassinating Cairne? I assume you mean Vol'jin right?

    The Horde has plenty reason to want to kill him. But the Alliance vendetta against Garrosh is both longer, starting in Cataclysm, and bloodier. An entire nation, men women and children, driven from their homes? Multiple attempts to do the same to the Nelfs? Wiping Theramore off the map? No, sorry this rebellion that's starting just now doesn't eclipse the Alliance's grievances with the orc.

    People say that having the Alliance kill him would make the Horde seem impotent. Well guess what, same can be said for allliance.

  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Tempest Keep
    Posts
    2,807
    It's internal because Alliance aren't rebelling against anyone Garrosh was never their warchief

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans FuxieDK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    København
    Posts
    2,725
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Read the whole post and you might understand, instead on focusing on the first line.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 10:57 AM ----------



    Killing the enemy is war aswell. And Garrosh is one of the biggest if not the biggest enemies of the alliance now.
    This isnt about who has the right to kill Garrosh. Right now, everyone has the right to kill him. This is about why the heck the alliance arent doing anything except helping the trolls in a minor way.
    They can TRY, yes... You can TRY almost anything in a war.. However, this doesn't mean you have a CLAIM ON THE KILL..
    Alliance can send in gnomes with bombs, or deseased worgen toattemt to kill Garrosh... Be my guest..

    However, when (no, I don't mean if) Horde kills him first, Alliance IS NOT CHEATED of the kill, as it wasn't theirs to begin with..

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Fairchild View Post
    The Alliance? The guys that are there only so that we have stuff to kill? I am confused
    People could say the same thing about the horde... idk what you thought you were contributing with this ignorant statement.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    This is about why the heck the alliance arent doing anything except helping the trolls in a minor way.
    Because major army logistics make for exceedingly boring gameplay and are therefore not shown to us?

  17. #37
    The Alliance has many reasons to hate Garrosh.
    But Garrosh is a Horde leader, opposed by the Horde, oppressing the Horde, and as such, the Horde's rebellion against Garrosh is both a fight for freedom as well as redemption. That's what makes it an internal matter.

    If Wrynn would go all fascist on the Alliance, attacking Horde with a frothing mouth while making life miserable for the greater part of the Alliance, the Alliance should get its justice. Sure, the Horde would help (it's in their interest too, after all), but the Alliance should have the right to both avenge and redeem themselves. Well; replace 'Alliance' with 'Horde' (and vice versa) and 'Wrynn' with 'Garrosh' and there we have it. The only real difference is that Wrynn seems to have found a brain somewhere along the road, whereas Garrosh has started filling that tiny skull of his with rotting rice.

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sofia/Bulgaria
    Posts
    4,059
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    They can TRY, yes... You can TRY almost anything in a war.. However, this doesn't mean you have a CLAIM ON THE KILL..
    Alliance can send in gnomes with bombs, or deseased worgen toattemt to kill Garrosh... Be my guest..

    However, when (no, I don't mean if) Horde kills him first, Alliance IS NOT CHEATED of the kill, as it wasn't theirs to begin with..
    This thread isnt about WHO kills garrosh at all. I dont even know why you are bringing this up. I dont care who kills him. And honestly, players will kill him, or the Sha of Pride will kill him, consuming him, and the players will have to fight the Sha instead. Who cares anyway?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Yet, in the Alliance questline in Durotar that concerns that rebellion, we meet 2 spies and a mechanical cat in a cloak-field. Jaina and Varian are not heard of, they seem like they dont care much about what is happening.
    Part of the reason Jaina isn't there, and to a lesser extent Varian is made present already in the game. The thing is most people choose to ignore it because they expect things to be done the way they want. Jaina I would assume isn't there very much like how Lor'themar isn't.

    On the Horde side after you do the quest line and everything Vol'jin mentions that Lor'themar would probably be more than willing to help but he is currently tied up dealing with the Thunder King forces. To us the Thunder King is dead as we've personally killed him ourselves, but within game lore I think he's still considered "alive" for the moment and his forces are starting to dwindle. Using this logic the same could be said about Jaina as she is on the very same Isle herself dealing with the same issue and this explains why she isn't present. She isn't going to spread her forces thinly on the Isle and on the rebellion.

    Now, onto why Varian isn't there (and this is what I think just because of the events transpiring within the scenario/Lorewalker's intro) is that while he isn't there himself he is out actually rallying the troops up. As we saw in the Blood in the Snow scenario he is helping the dwarves get rid of the trolls in hopes that they will help send troops to join them with the rebellion. Only one leader agrees, but he takes what he can at the moment and tries to help her (no idea what her name is offhand) so that it could help pave way for the other two to be convinced. Just because something is a scenario in game and happened before we go to the quest line doesn't mean necessarily that the event has happened in the lore, it just means it either has happened or currently ongoing. I would assume after he tries to convince the dwarves he would try to convince the gnomes (as I don't think the Night Elves need convincing? Or maybe they do?).

  20. #40
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sofia/Bulgaria
    Posts
    4,059
    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    Consider this: why would we even want to remove Garrosh at this time?

    Of course, he will have to go eventually. But right now, he's occupied with a full-scale uprising in his own backyard. And the longer the rebellion drags on, the more weakened the Horde will be when it's finally over, regardless of who wins.

    Maxim 29: "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less." Just because Garrosh happens to be in charge of the Horde at the moment doesn't mean it won't be a threat anymore once he's gone. We should be trying to slay the hydra, not chop off its current head just for it to grow a new one.
    Cause in his backyard he might be constructing something monstrous made out of sha and if the Alliance lets it continue for too long, they might pay for it with their very lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •