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  1. #1
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Why does everyone treat the horde rebelion like it's an "internal matter"..

    Time and time again, I see people pointing out that that horde rebelion is "Interlal matter". Why do they say that? It is clearly not.

    Now lets state it clearly: Theese people are Horde fanboys that are trying to justify the focus on their faction In that patch. I, on the other hand, am an Alliance fanboy who is trying to do the same, but vice versa. I am trying to prove that the Alliance got the short end of the stick in that patch big time with their questline in Durotar. It was lame. At least compared to the horde one, wich was great, it had lots of fun stuff. Like Trall and Chen playing electrify the Kor'kron.

    If you are a horde player and you are now angrily going to comment, opposing me, please, stick with the read, see things from my point of view. Or I shall strike you with this gun

    Congrats to the 1 guy that got the pun.


    Now let's focus on the notion why the so called "horde rebellion" is not an internal matter entirely. While it was started by the trolls who are opressed, A LOT of Alliance characters want Garrosh dead too, and they have great interest in seeing him dead. Namely Varian, who wishes to gut him for what he did to his son and the Alliance as a whole, and Jaina, who wishes to freeze him so hard that even Ragnaros wouldn't be able to unfreeze him, because he destroyed all she worked for for her entire life (seriosly, she seems rather chill about the fact that he destroyed her town )

    Yet, in the Alliance questline in Durotar that concerns that rebellion, we meet 2 spies and a mechanical cat in a cloak-field. Jaina and Varian are not heard of, they seem like they dont care much about what is happening.

    Before you tell me: "well what they should have done then" or "what more you want, the alliance is carefull" I can tell you that yea, it might be carefull with the spies at first, but when it is confirmed that the rebellion is going in full force, and when it is confirmed vol'jin needs alliance help, there should have been a more to the alliance story. Like an small covert attack on the shores of Durotar and a construction of a small alliance camp.

    Everyone knows that the Alliance dosen't have much resources to spare on a full-blown invasion yet, and is not fully mobilized its fleets to strike Durotar and Orgrimmar in a major way, this is why the invasion is small and the camp is small too, like the rebellion's camp. Alliance could set up in Tiragarde just fine. And this is where the current quests come in.

    Instead of playing Fetch with Vol'jin and bringing him resources like his loyal lapdogs, Alliance players should gather resources for their own faction to help their effort. This could solve the problem of the Alliance-Vol'jin "talk", wich is pretty a pathetic failiure on blizzard's part IMO. Instead of that talk, have Varian (escorted by the alliance player) , who Blizzard oh so wishes to develop, talk to Vol'Jin and striking a truce with him, agreeing to help him bring garrosh down and then Leaving Durotar with his forces in peace, leaving the horde to their stuff. And then a manly handshake.

    That would be very satisfiying for an Alliance player, like myself. But yeah, look at what we got. A pile of undeveloped crap. So, hordies, please, don't say that Alliance dosen't have a part to play in this, when I, sitting in my god-forsaken TOILET, doing you-know-WHAT (actually, don't think of that), can think of a better way that is legit to have the alliance in Durotar and have them involved in some way.
    Last edited by Kazomir; 2013-04-21 at 05:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Time and time again, I see people pointing out that that horde rebelion is "Interlal matter". Why do they say that? It is clearly not.

    Now lets state it clearly: Theese people are Horde fanboys that are trying to justify the focus on their faction In that patch. I, on the other hand, am an Alliance fanboy who is trying to do the same, but vice versa. I am trying to prove that the Alliance got the short end of the stick in that patch big time with their questline in Durotar. It was lame. At least compared to the horde one, wich was great, it had lots of fun stuff. Like Trall and Chen playing electrify the Kor'kron.

    Now let's focus on the notion why the so called "horde rebellion" is not an internal matter entirely. While it was started by the trolls who are opressed, A LOT of Alliance characters want Garrosh dead too, and they have great interest in seeing him dead. Namely Varian, who wishes to gut him for what he did to his son and the Alliance as a whole, and Jaina, who wishes to freeze him so hard that even Ragnaros wouldn't be able to unfreeze him, because he destroyed all she worked for for her entire life (seriosly, she seems rather chill about the fact that he destroyed her town )

    Yet, in the Alliance questline in Durotar that concerns that rebellion, we meet 2 spies and a mechanical cat in a cloak-field. Jaina and Varian are not heard of, they seem like they dont care much about what is happening.

    Before you tell me: "well what they should have done then" or "what more you want, the alliance is carefull" I can tell you that yea, it might be carefull with the spies at first, but when it is confirmed that the rebellion is going in full force, and when it is confirmed vol'jin needs alliance help, there should have been a more to the alliance story. Like an attack on the shores of Durotar and a construction of an alliance camp.

    Everyone knows that the Alliance dosen't have much resources to spare on a full-blown invasion yet, this is why the invasion is small and the camp is small too, like the rebellion's camp. Alliance could set up in Tiragarde just fine. And this is where the current quests come in.

    Instead of playing Fetch with Vol'jin and bringing him resources like his loyal lapdogs, Alliance players should gather resources for their own faction to help their effort. This could solve the problem of the Alliance-Vol'jin "talk", wich is pretty pathetic. Instead of that talk, have Varian, who Blizzard oh so wishes to develop, talk to Vol'Jin and striking a truce with him, agreeing to help him bring garrosh down and then Leaving Durotar with his forces in peace, leaving the horde to their stuff. And then a manly handshake.

    That would be very satisfiying for an Alliance player, like myself. But yeah, look at what we got. A pile of undeveloped crap. So, hordies, please, don't say that Alliance dosen't have a part to play in this, when I, sitting in my god-forsaken TOILET, doing you-know-WHAT, can think of a better way that is legit to have the alliance in Durotar and have them involved in some way.
    I agree, the Alliance should be using this to gather the resources, if they wanted they could of had a daily/weekly where we guard a supply shipment going to send some supplies to Zul'Jin to help the rebellion survive since the longer they rebel the more kor'kron die, but we should of been focusing on our war effort. I mean the patch says "The alliance are assembling a fleet." But varion doesn't call for our help?
    My youtube can be found at Gcsmith12 for those who are interested.

    Many good games are coming in 2012, Im glad to be a gamer

  3. #3
    High Overlord
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    Okay argument aside here's why: Because it should be a strictly internal affair.

    But here's why it isn't: Resources and Blizz not wanting to make two separate raids. Which is understandable.

    But there you have it, that's why.

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivva View Post
    Okay argument aside here's why: Because it should be a strictly internal affair.

    But here's why it isn't: Resources and Blizz not wanting to make two separate raids. Which is understandable.

    But there you have it, that's why.
    It shouldn't be. Too much people are offended by Garrosh to simply not care.
    The Raid could be one with the rebellion/alliance union pushing into org, but the stories that lead to it should be two.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  5. #5
    The reason the Alliance get the short end of the stick in the 5.3 stuff is BECAUSE it's an internal matter. Alliance players are being shoehorned in so they have something to do in 5.3.

    As many, many players have pointed out, the Alliance should be hanging back to attack the exhausted winner. But can you imagine if the Alliance side of 5.3 was named "A Whole LOT of Patience." and consisted of of a scenario where you watch Horde NPCs kill each other for 15 minutes through a telescope?

    I will say it again and again, splitting the Horde and Alliance player base is a bad game design, because there will be events where the other side participating makes no damn sense. But they will, because of how Blizz doesn't want to waste resources.

  6. #6
    The Alliance? The guys that are there only so that we have stuff to kill? I am confused

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    It shouldn't be. Too much people are offended by Garrosh to simply not care.
    The Raid could be one with the rebellion/alliance union pushing into org, but the stories that lead to it should be two.
    And how would you suggest that they do that unless they plan it prior to the actual siege?

    In combat if the Alliance were to serve its interests they could simply besiege Orgrimmar in the typical fashion while the Horde went in and weakened Garrosh's defenses, then the Alliance would go in for the kill. No, it would have to be coordinated beforehand.

    Also if you got the vibe from that other thread that I thought that this was an internal affair and that's partly the reason you made this thread, you might wanna re-read those posts (Not sure if you DID, just covering bases!) :P

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    And how would you suggest that they do that unless they plan it prior to the actual siege?

    In combat if the Alliance were to serve its interests they could simply besiege Orgrimmar in the typical fashion while the Horde went in and weakened Garrosh's defenses, then the Alliance would go in for the kill. No, it would have to be coordinated beforehand.

    Also if you got the vibe from that other thread that I thought that this was an internal affair and that's partly the reason you made this thread, you might wanna re-read those posts (Not sure if you DID, just covering bases!) :P
    Its not only you who says its an internal matter.

    I just want a small invasion by the alliance to land (wich is before the big organized alliance fleet comes in crashing) so that alliance players could do quests for the alliance instead of serving the horde. It would also give Varian more show time and we will watch as he and Vol'jin talk about how they are going to do this together.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    I've not really paid too much attention on the 5.3 stuff but if we're apparently helping the Horde defeat Vol'jin, it could mean several things.

    1. The lore for Varian and his personality was completely forgotten considering he hates the Horde.
    2. Varian has mellowed even more thanks to Anduin's influence and is far more open to things that might foster peace.
    3. The Alliance are now literally just in the game to watch as the Horde progresses in story (lol).

    Personally, I'm all for the peace path if we're getting a BL expansion. We'll need to work together.
    Last edited by UnifiedDivide; 2013-04-21 at 06:54 PM.

    Rarely updated...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    The reason the Alliance get the short end of the stick in the 5.3 stuff is BECAUSE it's an internal matter. Alliance players are being shoehorned in so they have something to do in 5.3.

    As many, many players have pointed out, the Alliance should be hanging back to attack the exhausted winner. But can you imagine if the Alliance side of 5.3 was named "A Whole LOT of Patience." and consisted of of a scenario where you watch Horde NPCs kill each other for 15 minutes through a telescope?

    I will say it again and again, splitting the Horde and Alliance player base is a bad game design, because there will be events where the other side participating makes no damn sense. But they will, because of how Blizz doesn't want to waste resources.
    I would totally watch that. Horde killing horde. I'd bring popcorn.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I've not really paid too much attention on the 5.3 stuff but if we're are apparently helping the Horde defeat Vol'jin, it could mean several things.
    In-game reasoning is that neither side alone has the power to defeat Garrosh. If the Rebels go it alone, they all die. If the Alliance go it alone, they all die. If Rebels and Alliance go in together, Garrosh dies. Both Varian and Vol'jin knows this.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    In-game reasoning is that neither side alone has the power to defeat Garrosh. If the Rebels go it alone, they all die. If the Alliance go it alone, they all die. If Rebels and Alliance go in together, Garrosh dies. Both Varian and Vol'jin knows this.
    Not true at all, Garrosh's horde couldn't beat the alliance without the doom weapons, and thats with Vol'jin etc on his team. Now they are against him, he loses the edge the super weapons give him.
    My youtube can be found at Gcsmith12 for those who are interested.

    Many good games are coming in 2012, Im glad to be a gamer

  13. #13
    Yes, destroying the sworn enemy of the Alliance who's been attacking everyone in his path and physically assaulted the King of Stormwind's son (along with killing Blue Dragons and stealing their Focusing Iris and is tearing Pandaria apart looking for more weapons to steal) is totally an internal matter.

    /sarcasm

    That's as dumb as saying killing the Lich King was an Alliance internal matter, even though the Scourge was a threat to everyone.

    Garrosh is a threat to everyone except Orcs loyal to his order (and even they aren't completely safe - look at how casually he throws their lives away during the 5.1 questline). The Darkspears want the same thing as the Alliance - Garrosh's head, and an end to the pointless killing. The only thing they differ on is what to do with Ogrimmar and the Horde in general after the ashes settle.

    As for 'they can't make two raids' - that isn't what's being said, no-one is suggesting that (or not many, at least). We want a decent set of quests for both factions, like what we've gotten consistantly so far. How pissed off would Horde players be if 5.1 was just 'help Alduin stop Garrosh and gather resources for the Alliance behind his back'?

    VERY!

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 08:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I've not really paid too much attention on the 5.3 stuff but if we're apparently helping the Horde defeat Vol'jin, it could mean several things.

    1. The lore for Varian and his personality was completely forgotten considering he hates the Horde.
    2. Varian has mellowed even more thanks to Anduin's influence and is far more open to things that might foster peace.
    3. The Alliance are now literally just in the game to watch as the Horde progresses in story (lol).

    Personally, I'm all for the peace path if we're getting a BL expansion. We'll need to work together.
    Its #2. Clearly.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Its not only you who says its an internal matter.
    Re-read my post.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Yes, destroying the sworn enemy of the Alliance who's been attacking everyone in his path and physically assaulted the King of Stormwind's son (along with killing Blue Dragons and stealing their Focusing Iris and is tearing Pandaria apart looking for more weapons to steal) is totally an internal matter.

    /sarcasm

    That's as dumb as saying killing the Lich King was an Alliance internal matter, even though the Scourge was a threat to everyone.

    Garrosh is a threat to everyone except Orcs loyal to his order (and even they aren't completely safe - look at how casually he throws their lives away during the 5.1 questline). The Darkspears want the same thing as the Alliance - Garrosh's head, and an end to the pointless killing. The only thing they differ on is what to do with Ogrimmar and the Horde in general after the ashes settle.

    As for 'they can't make two raids' - that isn't what's being said, no-one is suggesting that (or not many, at least). We want a decent set of quests for both factions, like what we've gotten consistantly so far. How pissed off would Horde players be if 5.1 was just 'help Alduin stop Garrosh and gather resources for the Alliance behind his back'?

    VERY!

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 08:00 PM ----------



    Its #2. Clearly.
    Darkspears or other horde did not care much about the war until garrosh turned on them. they have been actively killing alliance for many years without any qualms. That is why it does not make sense.

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Re-read my post.
    I'm not that skilled in the art of expressing the english form of what I mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    Darkspears or other horde did not care much about the war until garrosh turned on them. they have been actively killing alliance for many years without any qualms. That is why it does not make sense.
    Yeah. If Garrosh had simply shooed Vol'jin off or given him pointless make-work somewhere far away to keep him busy instead of trying to have him assassinated, there probably wouldn't even be a rebellion.

    Edit: Not to say Vol'jin was happy with how things were going, his dissatisfaction with the war was the whole reason he showed up to confront Garrosh at Domination Point, after all. I'm just saying it wouldn't have reached the "open rebellion" threshold if Garrosh hadn't tried to assassinate him.
    Last edited by Darmalus; 2013-04-21 at 07:26 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    In-game reasoning is that neither side alone has the power to defeat Garrosh. If the Rebels go it alone, they all die. If the Alliance go it alone, they all die. If Rebels and Alliance go in together, Garrosh dies. Both Varian and Vol'jin knows this.
    The in games reasoning is that if Vol'jin goes it alone, he'll die but if Varian goes it alone, the Alliance takes heavier losses. The Alliance isn't going to land if it doesn't think it will win. Or it may have to land elsewhere.

    Truth is, the set up is poor for both sides. Vol'jin shouldn't have started a rebellion he knows he can't win. And the idea Garrosh can suddenly lose half his army and still pose a credible threat to the Alliance and Vol'jin is ludicrous.

    Add in the poor writing for the meeting that takes place and you'll find this scenario shoehorns both sides into it. And both sides come out of it looking poorly....the Alliance just fares worse because it IS an internal Horde matter and its a storyline Blizzard hasn't seen fit to actually integrate them into at all.

    Appropriate quest text could have fixed that.....but it didn't happen.

    EJL

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Time and time again, I see people pointing out that that horde rebelion is "Interlal matter". Why do they say that? It is clearly not.

    Theese people are Horde fanboys that are... I, on the other hand, am an Alliance fanboy who is.
    Things are a lot less stressful and more fun if you just focus on being a video game fanboy and not overly invest in the make believe factions. Unless Blizzard says "no raid for faction X", I don't care who I'm killing or where.

    But playing along with the game, It's not an "internal matter" for the Horde only, because Garrosh decided to nuke an Alliance town. Take away Theramore and it becomes almost exclusively an internal matter. Unless the Alliance is going to invade Org to prevent Garrosh from acquiring mogu weapons of mass destruction. The latter is a tougher sell, so of course, we need Garrosh to nuke an Alliance town to make it a "world" problem, not just a horde problem.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-04-21 at 08:29 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Time and time again, I see people pointing out that that horde rebelion is "Interlal matter". Why do they say that? It is clearly not.

    Now lets state it clearly: Theese people are Horde fanboys that are trying to justify the focus on their faction In that patch. I, on the other hand, am an Alliance fanboy who is trying to do the same, but vice versa. I am trying to prove that the Alliance got the short end of the stick in that patch big time with their questline in Durotar. It was lame. At least compared to the horde one, wich was great, it had lots of fun stuff. Like Trall and Chen playing electrify the Kor'kron.

    If you are a horde player and you are now angrily going to comment, opposing me, please, stick with the read, see things from my point of view. Or I shall strike you with this gun

    Congrats to the 1 guy that got the pun.


    Now let's focus on the notion why the so called "horde rebellion" is not an internal matter entirely. While it was started by the trolls who are opressed, A LOT of Alliance characters want Garrosh dead too, and they have great interest in seeing him dead. Namely Varian, who wishes to gut him for what he did to his son and the Alliance as a whole, and Jaina, who wishes to freeze him so hard that even Ragnaros wouldn't be able to unfreeze him, because he destroyed all she worked for for her entire life (seriosly, she seems rather chill about the fact that he destroyed her town )

    Yet, in the Alliance questline in Durotar that concerns that rebellion, we meet 2 spies and a mechanical cat in a cloak-field. Jaina and Varian are not heard of, they seem like they dont care much about what is happening.

    Before you tell me: "well what they should have done then" or "what more you want, the alliance is carefull" I can tell you that yea, it might be carefull with the spies at first, but when it is confirmed that the rebellion is going in full force, and when it is confirmed vol'jin needs alliance help, there should have been a more to the alliance story. Like an small covert attack on the shores of Durotar and a construction of a small alliance camp.

    Everyone knows that the Alliance dosen't have much resources to spare on a full-blown invasion yet, and is not fully mobilized its fleets to strike Durotar and Orgrimmar in a major way, this is why the invasion is small and the camp is small too, like the rebellion's camp. Alliance could set up in Tiragarde just fine. And this is where the current quests come in.

    Instead of playing Fetch with Vol'jin and bringing him resources like his loyal lapdogs, Alliance players should gather resources for their own faction to help their effort. This could solve the problem of the Alliance-Vol'jin "talk", wich is pretty a pathetic failiure on blizzard's part IMO. Instead of that talk, have Varian (escorted by the alliance player) , who Blizzard oh so wishes to develop, talk to Vol'Jin and striking a truce with him, agreeing to help him bring garrosh down and then Leaving Durotar with his forces in peace, leaving the horde to their stuff. And then a manly handshake.

    That would be very satisfiying for an Alliance player, like myself. But yeah, look at what we got. A pile of undeveloped crap. So, hordies, please, don't say that Alliance dosen't have a part to play in this, when I, sitting in my god-forsaken TOILET, doing you-know-WHAT (actually, don't think of that), can think of a better way that is legit to have the alliance in Durotar and have them involved in some way.
    agree fully
    I hoped to see some kind of Alliance Caravan led to Vol'jin from Ratchet/Ashenvale/Stonetalon. whatever. to help Trolls

    it would feel better, then simply run around as vol'jin slave

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