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  1. #61
    Herald of the Titans UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    /sigh

    World of Warcraft is and always has been the king of casual MMOs. At no point in it's life can you consider it a "hardcore" MMO. Play something that came before WoW and you'll see what hardcore ends up being. There is a reason it became so popular: It was easy. Though yes, the Warcraft/Blizzard name didn't hurt it.

    I do love the people saying TBC was the more hardcore era of the game and how perfect it was. I'm just going to point out that the term "welfare epics" (which I see TBC lovers complaining about so often) started in TBC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Threatening an atheist with hell is like threatening a Christian with Mordor.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Luagong View Post
    The only thing, that irritates me these days is what some casual players wants the game to be. Reading blue posts in which someone complains about the loot, that is not given with every single LFR attempt or heroic raids, being too hard for majority of gamers (which is obviously their role), makes me feel terrible. I am spitting feathers when i can notice people bitching in-game about how hard the LFR boss can be, regarding the encounter where they are actually forced to do anything to survive.

    It seems like some wants to have more, to have access to a "premium" content, without any effor put in getting it.
    Hmm, it is almost as if some players just want to log on and have fun as, how unreasonable of them.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    if it takes you more than a week to level from 1 to 90 at this point you are doing something horribly wrong.
    Let me guess, you level 1 to 90 in a week, playing just 10 mins a day right ?

    Again, it's this kind of mindset that's the problem. Go check the US forums there is plenty of people that have one 90 and can't even get their other 80s to 90. While you might not mind the mindless grind, other people do. Easy does not equal fun. Take a look at a game like Battlefield 3, You level up by playing the game, doing the parts you like from the very start. MMOs says here do this for the next X number of hours and then you can start doing the fun parts.

    And to my statement of paying $10 for a instant 90 and using you very liberal statement of a week ? You must be on a tight income, because in my world, that's a huge ROI.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Hmm, it is almost as if some players just want to log on and have fun as, how unreasonable of them.
    Well... now we can argue about the definition of "fun". For someone playing Fifa on amateur is fun, for another finishing Call of Duty on hardest difficulty.

    Appealing to the subject, somehow.
    //i.imgur.com/Rpnlc.jpg

  5. #65
    This is from my personal point of view and I understand that it may not go down well with others.

    When you have games like SC2, WoW or anything else that doesn't really have an 'end' to it; When you play games where the literal end game goal is to be competitive (well, in most cases it's at least semi-competitive in one way or another) - I will play that game to earn that sense of accomplishment that it was designed to give. I don't understand how you can cater to casuals, you're talking about giving people LFR and stuff so that they can see content; but then what? What do they do after they clear LFR, max their cooking and level all their alts or whatever else? They aren't able to do any more content because they a) Don't want (or can't) put more time into the game or b) they feel as if they aren't good enough (Anyone can be good enough with practice though).

    The term 'Casual' doesn't mean a bad player, it simply means that they don't play the game much or for any real purpose, just for fun. But how much fun can a casual player get out of Warcraft? You get to the level cap, you do scenarios, dungeons, LFR and bgs; Maybe 1 raid a week and perhaps your weekly cap? You're telling me that this person, after achieving all of this and being unable to see any more content for months will continue playing? Do casual players even keep playing the game after they get to level cap and do as said above? Personally, I couldn't imagine playing WoW just for fun, because quite frankly, the only 'fun' I get out of it is whenever I win in one form or another; or I at least try to win with friends. I absolutely guarantee that most 'casual' players won't stick around for long, they clear whatever little content they are able to do and then move on to another game. All this 'content' that ruins the sense of achievement that you would normally get when first seeing Illidan or the Lich King, or Ragnaros, or Kil'Jaeden is completely gone. Because simply saying that you've made it to the last boss in a raid is one hell of a good feeling, and it's what got me playing in the first place.

    Obviously things like LFR are in place because, despite how little time casuals spend playing the game, they probably also take up the majority of the player-base. There are so many players joining and leaving WoW constantly, while the commited players, or the 'hardcore' as some of you put it, will stick around for the main content. I don't like it, in fact I fucking hate it and i'm considering leaving WoW myself (not really just cause of this, i'm just pretty burned out atm tbh) - But WoW would not be as successful if it wasn't so open to all areas of players, no where fucking near as successful I promise you that.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Hmm, it is almost as if some players just want to log on and have fun as, how unreasonable of them.
    Well... now we can argue about the definition of "fun". For someone playing Fifa on amateur is fun, for another finishing Call of Duty on hardest difficulty.

    Appealing to the subject, somehow.
    //i.imgur.com/Rpnlc.jpg

  7. #67
    Legendary! Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luagong View Post
    Well... now we can argue about the definition of "fun". For someone playing Fifa on amateur is fun, for another finishing Call of Duty on hardest difficulty.

    Appealing to the subject, somehow.
    //i.imgur.com/Rpnlc.jpg
    Like anything, fun is subjective.

    It's why blizzard and ANY developer has trouble pleasing the masses. Blizzard has 9 million+ players under their belt that they have to try and keep happy.

    I sometimes think people forget that the game doesn't revolve around them nor what they want.

  8. #68
    Legendary! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Without the casuals the game, especially raiding, would be in trouble.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince McMahon
    Puke is good. Puke is nice. It fits the WWF Attitude.

  9. #69
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    Casuals played the game even when it was designed for hard core gamers. It gave them something to look up to and strive towards, even if they would never actually be able to achiev it. It's what got me into the game. Seeing people in amazing gear, and hoping someday I'd be good enough to get it for myself. Now that anybody can get anything in game, it's become less enjoyable.
    You want people to believe that you were drawn into a game because someone had gear in the game that was "amazing"? I think what you mean to say is that it's what drew you to raiding. The problem was, back then, if you weren't willing to be incredibly committed to a specific raid schedule you never had a option to raid in the first place and that "hope that someday I'd be good enough to get myself there" doesn't really apply.

    Don't get me wrong. There were casuals playing back in classic. They just weren't the ones looking all bright eyed at the guy in full raid gear standing in front of the mailbox in Ironforge flexing. They were the ones trying to get around him to get to the mail and pick up the crazy amount of cash (to them) they got for selling their old crafting materials so they could finally get their epic mount.

  10. #70
    The Patient Volbian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pretenses View Post
    I don't understand why everyone complains about how "easy" it is, or how "faceroll" certain things are, and really, the "end of the sense of community" drives me insane. WoW isn't worse off than it was pre WotLK (when a lot of this started happening). Do you remember how bad it sucked having to get a group together to do a dungeon? Do you remember how hard it would be to get a spot in a raid guild, or hell, even get a raid team together? It wasn't impossible, but it definitely was harder than it is, and I distinctly recall many people complaining about it.

    As for the sense of community, we've always had little shits in the community, with their heads up their asses. It'll never change. WoW brings out the arrogance in certain people. It's still definitely possible to find a guild with good, friendly people. If you choose to join a hardcore raiding guild where noone talks, well that's your problem isn't it?

    Really, what's so wrong with the direction WoW has been going in for the last 3 xpacks?
    I'll tell you the difference. Yes, you did need to form a raid or 5man group from your current server. BUT, the difference is, is people HAD to learn how to play their class in order to be invited to anything. Nowadays, no one has to learn anything, but queue, auto attack, win loot.
    With CRZ into play, people dont give a shit what others think of them from other servers. So they do whatever.
    Up to Wrath, b4 CRZ, people had some sort of reputation to hold up, to get invited to anything on the server.
    Now attitude comes from self-entitlement, because Blizz gives away everything people HAD to work hard for, because they felt left out.
    Times have changed in the real world, and with that, the children being spoon-fed bring their attitudes to the game. Which in turns makes the community suck overall.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by OmniSkribe View Post
    I'm the only one who thinks that "Casual" has nothing to do with "grind" and all the butthurt is always about casual players (peps who whine that they have a real life and can't spend 4 nights a week in raids) are getting access to the same gear and game content as people who spend time to be the best, no?
    Except these "casuals" are not getting the same gear and content. In my opinion. These "casuals" are doing LFR, getting LFR gear. They may also do Normal raids and get normal raids gears. It is very unlikely they are doing HC raids and getting HC raid gear.

    So there are three levels of difficulty of the game, offering three different levels of rewards. Yet people still cannot leave others alone. I do not understand why a HC raider cares about a "Casual" player only doing LFR and so will only ever LFR raid gear.

    Finally, being the best is not just beating the content. It is about being first to beat the content. If any of these HC raiders really cares about being the best, then they should really worry more about being better than the people ahead of them rather than moaning about the people behind them.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    You can say the same thing about your constant complaints with the current raiding system, Osmeric.
    Not at all! I don't complain about people not wanting what I want. I just don't care if you don't get what you want.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  13. #73
    Absolutely nothing wrong with appealing to the casual player, just as there is nothing wrong with appealing to the hardcore player. The problem arises from favoring one class of player in a manner that detracts or diminishes the experience of the other. This is a balancing act that Blizzard has gotten adept at over time - of course, their early attempts were somewhat hamfisted and often caused outcry from one side of the camp or the other. In later expansions Blizzard has been using incomparable systems to combat the intricacies of casual vs. hardcore content in the same manner as they have to combat power creep - an incomparable being an element or system designed to change the game without necessarily changing the variables of power or itemization one way or the other.

    The Pet Battle system is a perfect example of this in action, it functions as additional and overall enjoyable content that in no way infringes upon your relative power should you opt out of it. If a hardcore raider finds their time taxed too much by Valor capping, rep. grinding, and profession farming then they can freely opt not to get involved in Pet Battles without risking a loss of personal power. Similar systems combat the divides that exist between people who prefer RNG loot distribution over grinding (be it reputation, achievements, or daily questing). WoW has already attained a design where the hardcore may occupy their own rarified space (heroic and progressive raiding) and the casual players have an even wider field (heroics, LFR, and normal/heroic Scenarios).

    The only remaining and likely unsolvable problem is with people who complain when another player somehow transgresses their place and tries to rise to a new status - sadly, this is almost always when an identified casual player tries to enter the hardcore realm. Either the hardcore crowd bemoans the loss of their status and prestige, or the casual crowd attempts to have the difficulty bar brought down to their level so that they can compete on an equal footing. Both actions are, at least in my opinion, wrongheaded - casuals who ascend the ladder of difficulty on their own terms should be welcomed into the fold with open arms, and the ladder of difficulty should remain unmodified so that doing so remains a personal achievement that requires dedication and effort (and both that dedication and effort should be reasonable, an issue that earlier iterations of WoW often had in putting the bar too high).
     /l、
    (゚、 。 7
     l、 ~ヽ
     じしf_, )ノ <-- I am a proud Death Knight.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Luagong View Post
    Well... now we can argue about the definition of "fun". For someone playing Fifa on amateur is fun, for another finishing Call of Duty on hardest difficulty.

    Appealing to the subject, somehow.
    //i.imgur.com/Rpnlc.jpg
    Obviously what is fun for me might not be fun for you and vice versa the problem is not what different people find fun it is that there is a very vocal group that are intent on pushing their idea fun on others. If people want LFR to be easier, so what? There are normal and heroic modes for those that seek a challenge, already players that run LFR receive worse gear, cannot gain achievements yet there are constant complaints that LFR rewards players for not putting the effort in.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarl Balgruuf View Post
    The issue isn't that it's appealing to casuals, the issue is that people fear that Blizzard will eventually ONLY appeal to casuals, and there will be nothing that is for the more 'hardcore' players.
    Well yes. The hardcores correctly realize that they aren't entitled to have their minority desires catered to, even if Blizzard has done so in the past. Their game style depends on the sufferance of the game designers, and so the hardcores try mightily to convince the designers that catering to the hardcores is good for the game as a whole, even though the hardcores are in the minority.

    This is why I cheer when participation in more elite content drops through the floor. It's difficult to maintain the lies when the hard numbers are there for all to see. It's also why I continue to state that, as a non-elite player, the presence of all that elite content has no positive effect on my personal game experience.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  16. #76
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    There is a certain blue who has commented on this regularly, and I agree with him. Some people hit level 90 in 2 days. Most didn't. It took me three weeks to reach level 90. I play around 3 hours a day every day. I was the 6th person in my guild to reach level 90, and those that got there before there put in a lot of effort (above what they normally do) to get there.

    MoP has been out for what, like 6 months now? I play 3 hours a day and still have tons of stuff to do and I barely manage to find any time to level an alt or do pvp.

    Honestly, if you absolutely need to find something to spend more than 100 hours a month on, then maybe play something else in addition to WoW...
    Obviously I do that. I did 1-90 in 5days or someting.
    Since december: 32days 22h played, 29days 16h on 90. So not much.

    First 2 weeks I had someting to do (first week to hit 90). Now its just content for 6-9h a week (depending on how much we try to progress HC ToT).

  17. #77
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue The Shaman View Post
    It's not the game's fault, people are just bored so they are going to find something to complain about. And the game's not easier. You can still PuG dungeons, you can still do "most" things you used to do. If you don't like something, don't do it. And just because you do something doesn't mean you get the right to whine about it.
    Let me summarize most raiders response to this snotdribbling nonsense, while realising I'll will get in trouble with the infraction bot!

    You sir, are an idiot!
    You should be applying for an MVP, CM or even developer position. Your common sense is lackluster, and your knowledge about human behaviour in general, is limited to that of a thimble!

  18. #78
    The Patient
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    My problem with the gradual drift of game focus is not on the casual vs hardcore line.

    I have friends and gaming partners in both crowds (and by that distinction I'm talking about time commitment more than anything, not skill related).

    My problem is at the solo vs group play shift, going further and further into favoring solo play even in the domain of traditional organized group play (scenarios, dungeons, raids).
    Game feels more and more like a solo experience with incidental grouping (that could for all I care be NPCs) for the vast majority of content, with only a diminishing niche remaining that actually requires and promotes cooperation.

    That's what bores me and will eventually be the downfall of WoW for me and lose them my subscription (while at the same time the game numbers might be thriving, it will have passed me by)

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Drii View Post
    My problem is at the solo vs group play shift, going further and further into favoring solo play even in the domain of traditional organized group play (scenarios, dungeons, raids). Game feels more and more like a solo experience with incidental grouping (that could for all I care be NPCs) for the vast majority of content, with only a diminishing niche remaining that actually requires and promotes cooperation.
    While I've enjoyed a lot of the new solo offerings MoP has brought to the table, I actually agree with you on this - a move away from group-oriented mechanics goes against the very essence of what an MMOG is and ought to be. That being said, my personal wish for WoW would be a system that allows for customizable raid sizes as low as 5 players, and also accommodating sizes like 15 and 20. It would be exceedingly difficult to do, I'm sure... the variables and numbers of mobs in encounters would have a lot of permutations possible.
     /l、
    (゚、 。 7
     l、 ~ヽ
     じしf_, )ノ <-- I am a proud Death Knight.

  20. #80
    (Deleted because the message I was responding to was deleted.)
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-04-22 at 06:21 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

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