Student Charged After Refusing To Remove NRA Shirt

[Nakura Chambers]

Freedom of speech doesn't apply in schools.

The Supreme Court disagrees.

[Trunksee]

And yet, he met the dress code.

No he met the written dress code, but schools leave a little line in the handbook along the lines of,"this can be ammended at any time or adjusted per administration." It allows the school to do something like this. Your rights are gone in school. Its totally up to the adminstration whats acceptable and not, they can change it at any time.

[Nakura Chambers]

Freedom of speech doesn't apply in schools.

Yet I guarantee you that if the student was wearing one of Bloomberg's "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" t-shirts, he wouldn't have been arrested.

[Zoldor]

School is not a public forum. Your free speech rights are not absolute at a school. It is not the appropriate place and will end up with action against you. Most public schools have a police officer on the grounds, that is why the kid was dealt with by the police so swiftly. He was probably getting out of control about it and the teacher got the school resource officer. More to the story than "What, I can't wear my shirt. No, I won't take it off" Goes to jail. There is a big gap in the facts there.

[Nakura Chambers]

School is not a public forum. Your free speech rights are not absolute at a school. It is not the appropriate place and will end up with action against you. Most public schools have a police officer on the grounds, that is why the kid was dealt with by the police so swiftly. He was probably getting out of control about it and the teacher got the school resource officer. More to the story than "What, I can't wear my shirt. No, I won't take it off" Goes to jail. There is a big gap in the facts there.

Would you support arresting him if he was wearing the t-shirt of a gun control lobby?

[Zoldor]

Yet I guarantee you that if the student was wearing one of Bloomberg's "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" t-shirts, he wouldn't have been arrested.

The school chooses what it allows because it has those rights. I've been forced to remove Marilyn Manson t-shirts that had nothing offensive. Also, an Eagles T-shirt that said Hell Freezes over on it. Not a public forum, their rules not yours. Its to keep school safe and a learning environment and to keep students from distracting others with their beliefs and ideals and hindering the learning experience for others.

[Elegiac]

Would you support arresting him if he was wearing the t-shirt of a gun control lobby?

Yes. There's a time and a place for politicizing, school isn't one of them.

[Nakura Chambers]

Yes. There's a time and a place for politicizing, school isn't one of them.

Very well, at least you're consistent and I respect that. Though I disagree, I think both shirts should be allowed.

[rhandric]

School is not a public forum. Your free speech rights are not absolute at a school. It is not the appropriate place and will end up with action against you. Most public schools have a police officer on the grounds, that is why the kid was dealt with by the police so swiftly. He was probably getting out of control about it and the teacher got the school resource officer. More to the story than "What, I can't wear my shirt. No, I won't take it off" Goes to jail. There is a big gap in the facts there.

And the only time the police should get involved, even the officer on the grounds, is if there is violence involved. Kid's throwing a tantrum because you ask him to change his shirt? Ok, detention. Keeps it up? Call parents. Keeps going? Suspension. There is no reason to involve the police, even the site officer, unless violence is involved. It's an abdication of responsibility on behalf of the administration to do such a thing

[Zoldor]

Would you support arresting him if he was wearing the t-shirt of a gun control lobby?

You are missing the point of he wasn't arrested for the t-shirt. He was arrested for his behavior when asked to remove the shirt. The teacher felt threatened enough and the officer judged his conduct to be enough for arrest. You can't be arrested based soley on the shirt or the removal of the shirt. Its your actions when you are told that get you arrested. He wasn't arrested for not removing the shirt. Probably for being violent and or verbally assaulting the officer, which is enough to be arrested. He's just a stupid kid, with parents who don't know their actual rights, who then taught their kid wrong which in turn got him arrested. I'm a gun owner, my mother has a conceal and carry license, and I myself own about 4 hand guns and two rifles. I have no problem with guns. I know the law though, abide by it and understand the implications of my actions when I choose to break it.

[theturn]

School is not a public forum. Your free speech rights are not absolute at a school. It is not the appropriate place and will end up with action against you. Most public schools have a police officer on the grounds, that is why the kid was dealt with by the police so swiftly. He was probably getting out of control about it and the teacher got the school resource officer. More to the story than "What, I can't wear my shirt. No, I won't take it off" Goes to jail. There is a big gap in the facts there.

He is guaranteed equal rights which he was not given

[Zoldor]

And the only time the police should get involved, even the officer on the grounds, is if there is violence involved. Kid's throwing a tantrum because you ask him to change his shirt? Ok, detention. Keeps it up? Call parents. Keeps going? Suspension. There is no reason to involve the police, even the site officer, unless violence is involved. It's an abdication of responsibility on behalf of the administration to do such a thing

Assault is the apprehension of violence. Since a teacher can no longer physically hold, restrain etc a child the officer was more than likely there for that reason. Teachers have to protect themselves. We aren't getting an entire story here. We have no clue what this kid was doing but to involve the cops he was doing something. To think otherwise is tin foil hat land.

[rhandric]

The school chooses what it allows because it has those rights. I've been forced to remove Marilyn Manson t-shirts that had nothing offensive. Also, an Eagles T-shirt that said Hell Freezes over on it. Not a public forum, their rules not yours. Its to keep school safe and a learning environment and to keep students from distracting others with their beliefs and ideals and hindering the learning experience for others.

And yet it appears that the only distraction in this case occurred due to the actions of a teacher, not the student in question or other students. If it was against the written rules, or if it caused a distraction started by students, then by all means, have him change it. But don't have him change it because it's against your political views, as long as it doesn't go against school policy or cause a disruption.

[Nakura Chambers]

You are missing the point of he wasn't arrested for the t-shirt. He was arrested for his behavior when asked to remove the shirt. The teacher felt threatened enough and the officer judged his conduct to be enough for arrest. You can't be arrested based soley on the shirt or the removal of the shirt. Its your actions when you are told that get you arrested. He wasn't arrested for not removing the shirt. Probably for being violent and or verbally assaulting the officer, which is enough to be arrested. He's just a stupid kid, with parents who don't know their actual rights, who then taught their kid wrong which in turn got him arrested. I'm a gun owner, my mother has a conceal and carry license, and I myself own about 4 hand guns and two rifles. I have no problem with guns. I know the law though, abide by it and understand the implications of my actions when I choose to break it.

The teacher never should have asked him to remove his shirt to begin with, she had no right to do so and was clearly acting in a biased manner. And as rhandric said, the police shouldn't have been called to begin with. If the kid was mouthing off to the teacher, then he could have been given detention, but the police shouldn't have been involved unless he violently assaulted the teacher.

[Zoldor]

He is guaranteed equal rights which he was not given

Equal rights isn't what you think it is and doesn't apply in this situation.

[saucywench]

While there is not an equivalence of a corpse, suggesting that abortion means nothing because there is no "body count" is at best pathologically callous. Especially when then person I am responding to holds the opinion that not having an abortion would have ruined the lives of the affected teens. I am stating that the psychological impact from having an abortion (or not) is still a massive toll on the affected population.

So, yes, I suppose it is a straw man.


Then again, suggesting that an NRA T-Shirt, or any representation of a gun, is a "context of gun violence and mass murder" is also a straw man.

The simple fact is a picture speaks a thousand words. Symbols are powerful in meaning and do carry weighty messages that cause behavioral reactions, if someone wore a Nazi Swatchka T-Shirt to school everyone here would be totally in agreement over the child being removed from campus. Im not saying NRA t-shirts are evil or equivalent to mass genocide, it was merely a form of illustration on the power of symbolism. NRA t-shirts are fine, they just dont belong in public schools.

[Zoldor]

The teacher never should have asked him to remove his shirt to begin with, she had no right to do so and was clearly acting in a biased manner. And as rhandric said, the police shouldn't have been called to begin with. If the kid was mouthing off to the teacher, then he could have been given detention, but the police shouldn't have been involved unless he violently assaulted the teacher.

Okay, I'm done arguing with arm chair lawyers who don't actually know what the terms they are using mean is rather pointless. Assault is a feeling not an actual attack if the teacher felt like the kid could become violent towards them thats assault. Assault is the creation of the apprehension of offensive touching. Basically creating logical fear in another person. You don't know this kid, if this teacher felt like this kid could produce violence they'd get the officer.

[rhandric]

Assault is the apprehension of violence. Since a teacher can no longer physically hold, restrain etc a child the officer was more than likely there for that reason. Teachers have to protect themselves. We aren't getting an entire story here. We have no clue what this kid was doing but to involve the cops he was doing something. To think otherwise is tin foil hat land.

You're right, we're not getting the full story here. But no, I would not say that thinking the involvement of cops is out of line is tin foil hat land, I've seen too many cases of zero tolerance where that exact thing happened. Which is why, based on the evidence we have, I'm inclined to lean towards it being an abdication of responsibility by the administration through zero tolerance.

[Gemini Soul]

Wouldn't it be funny and down right moronic if next year the same school adds "Guns" or "Weapons" to the not allowed dress code while they still have that statue in front with the riffle?

[Zoldor]

The teacher never should have asked him to remove his shirt to begin with, she had no right to do so and was clearly acting in a biased manner. And as rhandric said, the police shouldn't have been called to begin with. If the kid was mouthing off to the teacher, then he could have been given detention, but the police shouldn't have been involved unless he violently assaulted the teacher.

Look above, in a school if what you are doing is being done to draw attention to you and take away from the classroom experience. Ie wearing a shirt about guns at all, after the week in boston. Distracting from teaching you can be asked to remove anything you are wearing and be forced to in a public school. As I said before....forced to remove manson shirt with nothing offensive. Nothing I could have done besides refuse and get sent home. I though didn't become beligerant or violent, therefore I didn't get arrested. Know your actual rights, not the rights you think you have and how you think the law should be applied. That isn't how it works.