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  1. #121
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booshman View Post
    That just sounds like a poor attempt to justify bad behavior with an "everyone does it" slogan. Which is an outdated and somewhat childish way of thinking. As nations haven't engaged in such practices for centuries. But yet in this period of the constant and peaceful exchange of ideas, there has been development in the world that trumps the development from centuries where conquering was prevalent.
    Oh really? Many if not most of the greatest technological developments in the past century or so have been the result of war; the others have been happening so frequently because technological innovation is an autocatalytic process.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Oh really? Many if not most of the greatest technological developments in the past century or so have been the result of war; the others have been happening so frequently because technological innovation is an autocatalytic process.
    Do you have a different definition of "autocatalytic" than I do? And going to war in this day and age isn't "conquering" like what happened to the Native Americans and like what Caesar (in your earlier quote) did. You're conflating different extremes now.
    Last edited by Booshman; 2013-04-23 at 10:43 PM.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booshman View Post
    Do you have a different definition of "autocatalytic" than I do? And going to war in this day and age isn't "conquering" like what happened to the Native Americans and like what Caesar (in your earlier quote) did. You're conflating different extremes now.
    You're the one who brought technological innovation into it; if you aren't willing to argue it, don't bring it up.

    Furthermore you missed the entire point of the quote I posted. The fact of the matter is that what was done to the natives in America was just another in a long trend of conquests and exterminations throughout human history, and thus guilt over it is a futile gesture; all that can or rather should be done is some degree of restitution and also acknowledgement to try and prevent events of that nature from occurring in future.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Oh really? Many if not most of the greatest technological developments in the past century or so have been the result of war; the others have been happening so frequently because technological innovation is an autocatalytic process.
    Could you just mention a few of that innovations? But before you post it, please, do some research, and you will be suprised, very much suprised.
    (Because your statement do not really covers the grim reality.)
    and i tought that Karel Gott is all the czech got:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39_1fUkxfZ0&feature=related

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    You're the one who brought technological innovation into it; if you aren't willing to argue it, don't bring it up.

    Furthermore you missed the entire point of the quote I posted. The fact of the matter is that what was done to the natives in America was just another in a long trend of conquests and exterminations throughout human history, and thus guilt over it is a futile gesture; all that can or rather should be done is some degree of restitution and also acknowledgement to try and prevent events of that nature from occurring in future.
    Yeah, nice lie. YOU initially brought it up in post number 114. It wasn't me. See below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Because what the quote says is correct; guilt is an exercise in futility in this sort of situation.

    And no, technological and social development follows the sword more often than the ploughshare.

    And me pointing out the flaw in the quote, "Isn't me missing the entire point." The quote itself also doesn't mention anything about not repeating history, it just tries to justify bad behavior by saying "But...but...other people did it toooo!" Nothing about not repeating history. Unless there's much more to the conversation, this is something that you tacked on yourself.
    Last edited by Booshman; 2013-04-23 at 11:22 PM.

  6. #126
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booshman View Post
    Yeah, nice lie. YOU initially brought it up in post number 114. It wasn't me. See below:

    And me pointing out the flaw in the quote, "Isn't me missing the entire point."
    Which was a response to:

    Why did you quote a fictional movie that completely ignores that trade between groups has arguably had a bigger impact on the world than conquering?
    You brought up the argument that peacetime innovation outweighs wartime innovation, both social and technological.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  7. #127

  8. #128
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    *shrug* there society was wiped out by white people, leaving a tiny portion of them. thats how it worked. nothing more to figure out.

    Imagine being native american decent in the modern era and having to hear how your kind were killed off for land. Sure america gets to stand, but hey, it wasn't without blood.

  9. #129
    Over 9000! Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    *shrug* there society was wiped out by white people, leaving a tiny portion of them. thats how it worked. nothing more to figure out.

    Imagine being native american decent in the modern era and having to hear how your kind were killed off for land. Sure america gets to stand, but hey, it wasn't without blood.
    My kind is doing fine thanks. The majority of them integrated generations ago. I hope more follow and enjoy the prosperity that this society has to offer.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    My kind is doing fine thanks. The majority of them integrated generations ago. I hope more follow and enjoy the prosperity that this society has to offer.
    Just like any other ethnic group in America, we can be proud of where we came from, and still be American.
    In God we trust...all others we track!

  11. #131
    The Lightbringer Uennie's Avatar
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    Right here. I'm White Creek Cherokee (5%) and Native Hawaiian (45%). WHASSUP SUPER MINORITY.

    I'm also Welsh/Portuguese but that's not really the topic at hand.
    Last edited by Uennie; 2013-04-24 at 12:57 AM.

  12. #132
    Mechagnome Deathpath's Avatar
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    I am a quarter native american and my dad is half and my grandma is full. Their tribe lives on a reservation in canada. i forgot what their tribe is called but i think its the miq maq, some weird shit like that and the language is tough to learn.

  13. #133
    The Lightbringer Uennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathpath View Post
    I am a quarter native american and my dad is half and my grandma is full. Their tribe lives on a reservation in canada. i forgot what their tribe is called but i think its the miq maq, some weird shit like that and the language is tough to learn.
    Quick someone give this man all the fertile native american women he needs!

  14. #134
    Over 9000! Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevonne View Post
    Just like any other ethnic group in America, we can be proud of where we came from, and still be American.
    Yeah, there seems to be a lot of misinformation about late Native American history. Or this liberal wet dream that Natives were opposed to modern technology.

    But you can go to any museum and see that when the Europeans arrived the Natives were just learning how to work with metals. They like any other culture were always looking to find new ways to make life easier. They were just a few centuries behind. But many Native hunters were quick to trade for muskets and even started producing their own powder and shot.

    The reason why the bow was used over the gun in counterinsurgency was because it was a superior ambush weapon.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redmage View Post
    Here you go.

    Infracted. No lgmtfy links please.
    this made me lol.

    Haskell Indian College was in the same town as the university I went to so there was a fair population of native Americans where I went to school, but rather devoid in the state's population overall. Still many of them on the reservations I've been to.
    Atheist, anti-theist, pro-gun, pro-Constitution, anti-racism, pro-gay rights, anti-war, anti-corporatism.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by kalamona View Post
    Could you just mention a few of that innovations? But before you post it, please, do some research, and you will be suprised, very much suprised.
    (Because your statement do not really covers the grim reality.)
    Jet engines came around via world war 2. Nuclear power as a result of the work towards the Atom bomb. Some huge results come off the back of war. Rockets used to send men to the moon were designed and made by a fair few people who made the german rockets (I do believe one of the head people in nasa was a former german scientist for the Nazis). There are many more but also a lot of things made in peace time. A lot of the stuff we have now also comes off the back of military spending as it later comes into the public sector.

    As a side note, think about coca cola. They got moved around the world along with the American troops. Where the troops went supplies of cola went with them. Is it a surprise that they are so big these days?

  17. #137
    The Lightbringer Uzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    Can you safely say to me that everyone on this map was extremely violent?



    I couldn't say that.

    And I disagree, they were not equal (I presume you mean in violence). Yes, the Spanish went and did a genocide, yes, the Aztecs were doing their genocides... but were the Aztecs the only ones around there? No.

    And I mention the Aztecs especially because they lacked things like... wheels. And it may be a wonder of architecture, but in it they killed whatever tribe they catches. They had some kind of football game where the losing team was sacrificed. There was a special event once when 2000 people were sacrificed in 2 days... I mean, I can't say such a nation is civilized. Oh, and I never said the spanish were civilized either, I mean they came and did genocide for land and gold and the gold was used by the king/queen to buy riches and wasted quite quickly.

    I said the Inca were a bit more civilized then the rest because they managed to keep about 20 different cultures united (yes, through some fear, I won't deny that, yes, they did sacrifice the children of other tribesmen especially to keep the fear alive, I won't deny that either) and managed to make up a system in which if a region suffered from hunger because of droughts or something, other regions would share. It was a redistribution of goods similar to more socialist countries today, where they tried their best to keep their people from suffering (well, except the children of local chieftains...). In the meantime, in many countries in Europe, Spain included, the nobles were taking what they could from the poor, sometimes even leaving them to starve, if sometimes there was a drought... bad luck, people died. That's the big difference.
    First of all that map makes no sense, I know it's offtopic but I have to point out that neither a "Bohemia-Hungary" nor "Hungary-Bohemia" have ever existed. There was either Bohemia, Hungary, or Austria-Hungary. No Bohemia-Hungary whatsoever.

    Back on topic:
    Yes, I can say that every single country on that map was attempting to rule more and hoard more gold all the time.

    The Mesoamerican nations have never invented the wheel because there is no arable land and no domesticable animals to use them with. While Europeans used their wheels and animals on vast, fertile lowlands, the Mesoamerican cultures were able to grow plants and herd animals in altitudes exceeding 4000 meters, and they were able to cultivate swamps for growing crops (look up Tenochtitlán again, they actually built fields on the surface of a lake there.)

    You mention sacrifices - most of the sacrifices were captives, some were on the losing teams of games as you said, some were even volunteers because they found it honorable to be sacrificed. While I agree that such large-scale manslaughter is bad, it's not like the Europeans were different. People would voluntarily go to war, with the prospects of dying being extremely huge, just to have a chance at loot. They would also build starving dungeons, they would rape the women and kill the children of the conquered lands, ravage and burn villages and fields.

    There really was no difference between the level of civilization of either of the two "worlds". Both had it's pros and cons.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Jet engines came around via world war 2. Nuclear power as a result of the work towards the Atom bomb. Some huge results come off the back of war. Rockets used to send men to the moon were designed and made by a fair few people who made the german rockets (I do believe one of the head people in nasa was a former german scientist for the Nazis). There are many more but also a lot of things made in peace time. A lot of the stuff we have now also comes off the back of military spending as it later comes into the public sector.

    As a side note, think about coca cola. They got moved around the world along with the American troops. Where the troops went supplies of cola went with them. Is it a surprise that they are so big these days?
    Jet engine in theory and in practice was a pre-war construction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_178), nuclear power (fission) was also a pre-war thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission#History) and actually, the development was hindered by the war and the bomb.
    As for space flight, every sides got distracted from their original mission (human space flight) by the war (they had to design military rockets instead).
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verein_...Raumschiffahrt)

    War usually alter development. Nations in war tend to be secretive, the military needs proven designs en masse. usually some projects got lucky and get funding but many others not, and even the lucky ones sometimes got forgotten because the secrecy (think about the colossus or Zuse's work).
    and i tought that Karel Gott is all the czech got:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39_1fUkxfZ0&feature=related

  19. #139
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    I was doing some construction work on a new indian casino, red rock casino in placerville, ca. So anyways it was new construction and they didnt have freeway access ramp open at the time so I took the back roads to get there. If any of you are familiar with the foothills then you know there are hardly any people living out there. So anyways I keep driving because its like 10 miles through the back roads to get there. I finally come across some secluded homes, didnt see any people outside. Now these homeswere very nice homes, but the weird thing was they all had bars on the windows, almost every single one of them. So imagine coming across a bunch of nice homes in the middle of nowhere and all have bars on the windows and not a soul in sight. They looked like fortified fortresses instead of homes. I keep driving to the casino which according to gps is about 5 miles away, as I near the jobsite and enter the main reservation area, it looks like a run down trailer park ghetto, abandoned stripped cars, garbage everywhere, all kinds of stuff in peoples front yards. This is where the indians are, you dont see them because they stay on the reservations.

  20. #140
    Mechagnome
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    Not trying to sound racist here. But I don't get why white people go "i'm 1/4 irish, and half english", when the last time their ancestors actually stepped foot into those countries were like 100 years ago. Why brag about a country you've never been to. That's why I hate when someone calls me african american. I'm like nah I'm American only. I don't got a damn thing in common with any African.

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