Changes I Would Make To LFR

[BombeNissen]

add a test before you're able to queue similiar to:


... that will solve most of the problems with people being dumb and all...

[Smeeh]

The problem with solutions like this is, while they will punish leechers/afker's, they will also punish people who genuinely try but just arent that good and are trying to better themselves, which is why they do LFR in the first place. Or how about the guy who's trying his best and would be above the "punishment" limit, however he happened to join a LFR with 4 people from an uber heroic guild who demolish everyone on the dps meter and putting him way below the limit, even though he did nothing wrong?

[yjmark]

The only part of the suggestion I liked was the Trial part. Everything else was too subjective to really be effecively implemented.

DPS - very subjective. Should people get a buff for fudging the meters?
HPS - same
Tanking - whole different animal. Ways of measuring would have to be adjusted for every single encounter. Is it really worth it?

Punishments - not needed.

Overall, I just think that trying to turn LFR into normal mode raiding is not needed....because there already is normal mode raiding. Instead, why not just make a normal mode LFR version, and leave the current LFR the way it is?

[Anjerith]

No, sorry.

While I think your idea is fine - for a Guild Based Raid group, that is not the point of LFR. And, while the ORIGINAL Dragon Soul intent was to allow everyone to see the encounters, the system has evolved to offer an easy way for players to gear up characters *as well as* showing encounters to everyone. This makes the tool something for everyone.

Being for everyone, you are going to come across players of all sorts of dedication and competency. You may think someone is just being lazy or afk during an encounter, the reality may be that they are taking care of their children, or something else may have happened that required their attention. That is the reality of playing a game and being alive. You may see someone standing in a fire and dying and think they are lazy, the reality may be that they have crap computers and cant see the fire or their system is simply not handling the size of the encounter very well. Believe it or not, that is a majority of the WoW playerbase and a major attraction for people to the game; it runs on relatively low system specs for everyone outside of 25 man raiding.

There are simply too many variables that Blizzard must consider that your system is determined to not bother with.

[Belloc]

OP: People disagreeing with your ideas does not mean that they just want to AFK through LFR. Contrary to what you might believe, people are allowed to have well-thought out reasons for not liking your suggestions. Just because you can't see the inherent (and, honestly, obvious) flaws in your ideas doesn't mean that the rest of us can't.

[Absintheminded]

I've got a better fix, unlimited bonus rolls. If you got the coins, you got the rolls. Why else would my Holy Paladin who is item level 500 step into LFR ToES or MSV? Because I got shit for trinkets, I don't need anything else in there, lemme use all 20 of my Elder Charms received from one Treasure Trove of the Thunder King scenerio on my one upgrade. Seriously.

[Fullmetal89]

I think you are expecting way too much from P.U.G.s. If any of these changes, however great I might personally think they are, made it to live no one would use LFR. LFR needs to stay simple, retard proof, otherwise people will rage quit faster than they do now. Just look at how bad it is for Lei Shen in LFR nobody wants to take lead because they know 90% of the people in the group wont listen to simple instructions so they wing it like a monkey flinging poo. About the only real big change I would make to LFR is to fix the infuriating loot drops. Lets face it nobody does LFR for the "experience" they do it to gear up. I'm not saying hand out free loot, but if the drop rates have to be so infuriatingly RNG based then at least make it so that you can pick what you want from the loot table once something drops. Hell, I would go one step further. If you get loot without using a charm/coin then you have the option to use a charm/coin to exchange your loot for something you don't have from that bosses loot table. I think that would be very fair. It would also help out those that are trying to build off-sets. Odds are that they will implement something like this but it will be super gimped and no where near efficient as is everything in this game. Because TIME IS MONEY!!! amirite blizz.

[shise]

I don't get why people complain so much about lfr. If you really care about it just raid. It only takes 3-4 hours a week to raid. I'm pretty sure every wow player can find that time to raid. You already waste 1 hour or 2 in lfr...

I think it's fine the way it is. A loot grindfest, free loots for everyone who needs upgrades so the low chances for drops should remain as they are. You do LFR to see bosses, if you want loot do a real raid imo.

[Absintheminded]

I don't get why people complain so much about lfr. If you really care about it just raid. It only takes 3-4 hours a week to raid. I'm pretty sure every wow player can find that time to raid. You already waste 1 hour or 2 in lfr...

I think it's fine the way it is. A loot grindfest, free loots for everyone who needs upgrades so the low chances for drops should remain as they are. You do LFR to see bosses, if you want loot do a real raid imo.

But the bosses for LFR really don't paint a clear picture for regular/heroic. If you want to just "see" the bosses you could pull up a video. LFR is for gearing up. Why is that a discussion?

[Fullmetal89]

I don't get why people complain so much about lfr. If you really care about it just raid. It only takes 3-4 hours a week to raid. I'm pretty sure every wow player can find that time to raid. You already waste 1 hour or 2 in lfr...

I think it's fine the way it is. A loot grindfest, free loots for everyone who needs upgrades so the low chances for drops should remain as they are. You do LFR to see bosses, if you want loot do a real raid imo.

Yeah it only takes 3-4 hours to raid if you are in a guild with coordination. I don't have the time to join P.U.G.s and I can't make weekly raid times so LFR is my only choice. Not that I'm complaining but what you said doesn't apply to everyone. Also LFR is for loot that is the only reason its there. You don't learn the boss fights from LFR, you don't really enjoy the raid by doing LFR. All LFR is, is an extension to LFG except with the added frustration of crappy loot drop rates and once a week lockout.

[Deleted]

the "lfr is only to see content" is one of the biggest bullshit arguments I see thrown around

True story, I love when people say LFR is only to see content, if it's only to see content why do bosses drop loot? And why aren't they adding more dungeons which used to be the catch up mechanism?

And OP, these changes are the worst I've seen suggested, if you wanna do 25 man normal raiding do 25 man normal raiding, you can do it without LFR, these changes would only make it a total pain in the ass for everyone as there would always be people that don't do shit in LFR so it would take ages to finish anything in normal difficulty.

[KBWarriors]

If I get 14/14 bags again for two weeks in a row, I'm going to riot.

I know some people have the argument: "well just do normal raiding."

My schedule doesn't allow me to because it's completely random and pugging usually takes way more time than an organized guild does because it's chaotic. People aren't stupid, there's just no incentive to try, there's no incentive to not stand in dumb shit, there's no reward for performing your best, so no one really cares.

It's shocking to me to see so many people against a system that will,

1 - Teach people how to be better at their class and the mechanics of the game.
2 - Reward players who are following boss mechanics and performing at an optimum level.

This doesn't mean only the top geared players are going to be rewarded, it means anyone at any given iLvl (as long as they can queue up) will be rewarded for performing at a top level which will make less of a mess in LFR and you will down bosses faster. The time you would actually save once people started performing better with all of these changes is priceless. The only thing people are focusing in on though is,

"more work? Nope."

I go to LFR every week and usually I get nothing but bags... It's not that I don't need upgrades.. I need an upgrade (at least one) from almost every single boss of ToT. As I said, I have a completely random schedule and a unique job, I don't have the luxury of finding a guild for this. That's the typical response for people who read this, is that they should "get a 25 man normal guild." The quantity and quality of these guilds are dying out fast, because like a lot of the people here, they don't want to have to do any work for a chance at new loot. The entitlement that this feature has created is unnerving.

Then you see people in chat like this: (I'm reading it now)

"lol who cares if you didn't win shit its lfr"
"go do heroics like a non baddie you scrub"
"I hate people complaining about welfare i bet youre not white"

Yep.. gotta love internet keyboard warriors.

This new system doesn't punish anyone who's not on top of the meters just because they're new to LFR, the new system gives incentives and a little fire under the ass to not AFK, to actually avoid boss mechanics and harmful area effects and to help down bosses faster all for an extra chance of loot. I think if there's ONE thing we could definitely use from LFR, it's an extra chance of loot. I don't know about you guys, but I am so sick of winning bag after bag after bag and being a part of the fraction of the group that's trying to down the boss and actually playing the encounter properly.

It really seems to me like people just see that it would be more effort required then standing there and afking, so their typical response is "LOL NOPE".

[wheelock789]

If I get 14/14 bags again for two weeks in a row, I'm going to riot.

I know some people have the argument: "well just do normal raiding."

My schedule doesn't allow me to because it's completely random and pugging usually takes way more time than an organized guild does because it's chaotic. People aren't stupid, there's just no incentive to try, there's no incentive to not stand in dumb shit, there's no reward for performing your best, so no one really cares.

It's shocking to me to see so many people against a system that will,

1 - Teach people how to be better at their class and the mechanics of the game.
2 - Reward players who are following boss mechanics and performing at an optimum level.

This doesn't mean only the top geared players are going to be rewarded, it means anyone at any given iLvl (as long as they can queue up) will be rewarded for performing at a top level which will make less of a mess in LFR and you will down bosses faster. The time you would actually save once people started performing better with all of these changes is priceless. The only thing people are focusing in on though is,

"more work? Nope."

I go to LFR every week and usually I get nothing but bags... It's not that I don't need upgrades.. I need an upgrade (at least one) from almost every single boss of ToT. As I said, I have a completely random schedule and a unique job, I don't have the luxury of finding a guild for this. That's the typical response for people who read this, is that they should "get a 25 man normal guild." The quantity and quality of these guilds are dying out fast, because like a lot of the people here, they don't want to have to do any work for a chance at new loot. The entitlement that this feature has created is unnerving.

Then you see people in chat like this: (I'm reading it now)

"lol who cares if you didn't win shit its lfr"
"go do heroics like a non baddie you scrub"
"I hate people complaining about welfare i bet youre not white"

Yep.. gotta love internet keyboard warriors.

This new system doesn't punish anyone who's not on top of the meters just because they're new to LFR, the new system gives incentives and a little fire under the ass to not AFK, to actually avoid boss mechanics and harmful area effects and to help down bosses faster all for an extra chance of loot. I think if there's ONE thing we could definitely use from LFR, it's an extra chance of loot. I don't know about you guys, but I am so sick of winning bag after bag after bag and being a part of the fraction of the group that's trying to down the boss and actually playing the encounter properly.

It really seems to me like people just see that it would be more effort required then standing there and afking, so their typical response is "LOL NOPE".

You call other people lazy, yet you're painting everyone who disagrees with you with the same brush, and also calling for blizzard to overhaul an entire system to cater to your specific desires/schedule. Would you prefer to be the pot or the kettle in this analogy?

Simple fact is there's no reasonable way to automatically enforce the kind of personal responsibility you want everyone to display. I'm sorry that your schedule doesn't allow you to be part of a guild (though I do question that given the number of casual 10-man guilds around on most servers), but that's life sometimes. I raided through BC and Wrath pretty heavily, but had to stop during grad school. Compared to then, when there was essentially nothing to do at max level, LFR is an improvement. Yeah, it's riddled with jerks and lazy people - so is life.

Your assumption that you'll save time is based on the idea that these changes will cause people to get better. They won't. Bad players will still be bad, leeches will find a new way to leech. The only remedies are social - find a guild, or at least find 4 friends and queue up together. Then you can all vote-kick the slackers.

It's not that I don't see the problems in LFR. It's just that none of your ideas are remotely feasible or effective. Blizzard added LFR to give content/progression to the people who don't/can't optimize their performance - because they already had content for the people who can (normal raids). They're not going to undermine that concept now by making LFR challenging - it was designed for below-average players. Hardly surprising that those people are drawn to it.

[Belloc]

If I get 14/14 bags again for two weeks in a row, I'm going to riot.

I know some people have the argument: "well just do normal raiding."

My schedule doesn't allow me to because it's completely random and pugging usually takes way more time than an organized guild does because it's chaotic. People aren't stupid, there's just no incentive to try, there's no incentive to not stand in dumb shit, there's no reward for performing your best, so no one really cares.

Openraid. Use it. You can get a group in a matter of moments if you're even half-way decent at selling yourself. This leaves out Throne, of course, but boohoo. You still get to find a decent raid at any conceivable time of the day without being able to use excuses like, "my schedule is erratic." Now that I've taken that excuse away from you, what's your next one going to be?

It's shocking to me to see so many people against a system that will,

1 - Teach people how to be better at their class and the mechanics of the game.
2 - Reward players who are following boss mechanics and performing at an optimum level.

You can't teach people that don't want to learn. Instead, what you'll see is players quitting because they don't like to be forced into doing attunement quests just to join LFR. You'll also see people performing worse at DPS because they know that other players will pick up the slack. The best will maybe work harder, the worst will give up.

This doesn't mean only the top geared players are going to be rewarded, it means anyone at any given iLvl (as long as they can queue up) will be rewarded for performing at a top level which will make less of a mess in LFR and you will down bosses faster. The time you would actually save once people started performing better with all of these changes is priceless. The only thing people are focusing in on though is,

"more work? Nope."

You suggest that people will down bosses faster, yet one of your ideas was to remove the Determination buff, which would cause the exact opposite to happen. You are having a problem examining your own ideas and are assuming they would work for others the way you think they would work for you.

I go to LFR every week and usually I get nothing but bags... It's not that I don't need upgrades.. I need an upgrade (at least one) from almost every single boss of ToT. As I said, I have a completely random schedule and a unique job, I don't have the luxury of finding a guild for this. That's the typical response for people who read this, is that they should "get a 25 man normal guild." The quantity and quality of these guilds are dying out fast, because like a lot of the people here, they don't want to have to do any work for a chance at new loot. The entitlement that this feature has created is unnerving.

Funny, but I haven't seen any evidence of this. In fact, I see more and more guilds popping up and running raids. Fact: Guilds die and more guilds show up to take their places. That's how it has worked since Vanilla. You are looking for meaning in the loss of some guilds without realizing that other guilds are taking their place.

Then you see people in chat like this: (I'm reading it now)

"lol who cares if you didn't win shit its lfr"
"go do heroics like a non baddie you scrub"
"I hate people complaining about welfare i bet youre not white"

Yep.. gotta love internet keyboard warriors.

No, you gotta hate trolls and assholes. Maybe you shouldn't focus on what trolls are saying since, as everyone knows, that's how they get fed.

This new system doesn't punish anyone who's not on top of the meters just because they're new to LFR, the new system gives incentives and a little fire under the ass to not AFK, to actually avoid boss mechanics and harmful area effects and to help down bosses faster all for an extra chance of loot. I think if there's ONE thing we could definitely use from LFR, it's an extra chance of loot. I don't know about you guys, but I am so sick of winning bag after bag after bag and being a part of the fraction of the group that's trying to down the boss and actually playing the encounter properly.

Did You Know? 5.3 includes protection against bad-luck loot streaks. Essentially, your chance to win an item goes up every time you fail to win an item. This is intuitive, easy to understand, and simple to explain. Your ideas, however, are convoluted, counter-intuitive (you'll kill bosses faster, except determination is gone so you won't kill bosses any faster). Either way, the problem will be fixed in 5.3.

It really seems to me like people just see that it would be more effort required then standing there and afking, so their typical response is "LOL NOPE".

You do realize that most players do not AFK, right? That those who do afk tend to do so for a reason? That you can kick AFK players? Etc? Because it sure seems like a lot of this stuff is obvious to everyone here except for you.

[RoKPaNda]

I don't get why people complain so much about lfr. If you really care about it just raid. It only takes 3-4 hours a week to raid. I'm pretty sure every wow player can find that time to raid. You already waste 1 hour or 2 in lfr...

I think it's fine the way it is. A loot grindfest, free loots for everyone who needs upgrades so the low chances for drops should remain as they are. You do LFR to see bosses, if you want loot do a real raid imo.

Because real raiding requires that a guild that fits your schedule, and not everyone has that. Not everyone works 9AM - 5PM and then has free evenings. Some people are only available in the early afternoon or in the morning or don't have a fixed schedule. LFR is amazing for people that might have a 4 hour block of time to play WoW, but that 4 hour block of time isn't the same 4 hours every week / doesn't fit a guild's raiding schedule.

[KCguy]

Not sure why some people are going on about "increased loot" and all that stuff. The game was just fine before LFR and no one whined about wanting "increased loot" for doing a boss. Suddenly, LFR comes out and people want to be rewarded more and more with increased chances on gear. Come on now. Don't get me wrong, LFR is fine and great for people who can't raid because if their schedules, but I think increased loot chances and all that is making it a little, meh.

[yjmark]

Not sure why some people are going on about "increased loot" and all that stuff. The game was just fine before LFR and no one whined about wanting "increased loot" for doing a boss. Suddenly, LFR comes out and people want to be rewarded more and more with increased chances on gear. Come on now. Don't get me wrong, LFR is fine and great for people who can't raid because if their schedules, but I think increased loot chances and all that is making it a little, meh.

I think the OP was less about "increased loot", and more about "incentive to put in effort and play well". It is quite apparent that loot really drives a large percentage of the playerbase. So, why not use loot as a tool to help drive some people to put in a bit more effort?

Personally, I think the OP has the right thought process and good intentions. I just don't quite agree with the specifics of his proposal.

[Leonora]

The OP, and others agreeing with him, has the illusion that LFR extended with mechanical rules can replace the human dynamics of raidleader+officers+raidteam. If only...

If it were possible to make such simple rules, possibly Blizzard would even do it. Reality is that few or none of the proposed rules of the OP would work as intended. *Generally* you should not stand in bad stuff and hug people when needed, but exceptions *always* exist. If you reward the highest dps, dps will start cheating where possible. While output of healers is needed, you always need healers that aim for keeping people alive rather than topping the hps meters (and yes, that is different). A good tank is not always the one taking least damage or having best gear. Etc etc.

If you punish silly mistakes, you reduce incentive to join the queue for lfr, which increases wait times and decreases the number of raids succeeding timely. If you give more benefits to tanks, chances are that you get a lot more bad tanks and have to work much harder at testing and/or kicking them. The proposed rules have intentions, reality is very likely not as intended.

In short, and as stated by others in this thread, the OP wants the mechanics of normal raiding (with leader, offciers, common sense discussion etc) without the human aspect. If that were possible, it was already made. So... just accept lfr as is, and if you want more, seek a guild/community that offers it.

[Sansnom]

You know, I don't have a problem with the current roll system (being individualized that is), but what I do have a problem with, is relying on RNG.

Those are just some of my thoughts on the current Looking for Raid system and some of the changes I would like to see in it. I would like to hear your thoughts on it. I've included a poll to see what people think.

I am curious to know how you intent to implement half of the suggestions you made. It is one thing to have idea. It is another to make it happen.

[Sajek]

Rewarding meter whores with people who all have different gear, sometimes different roles, sometimes randomly get status effects other's don't, sometimes lower on the meters because they spent so much time moving away from crap instead of just standing it in. Oh, you get higher chance if you're a tank....tank is important and there's fewer of them but you're rewarded with not having to sit in queue for 30 minutes as a DPS.

You're kidding right? The OP MUST have been trolling, since the whole conceptual idea he wrote (and a lengthy one at that) is beyond silly.