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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Callypso View Post
    No, the reason is that in 25m you have way more cd's to chain. Sure, a tranq may be more effective in 10m relatively speaking, but you can still only use it once / 3 minutes. That's not the problem, reduction cd's are.

    Several bosses have a soft enrage or ramping up damage near the end of the fight: Megaera, Animus, Iron Qon and Lei Shen come to mind.

    Let's take Iron Qon as an example:

    10m:
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 1: Healer cd 1
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 2: Healer cd 2
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 3: Healer cd 3 (If you're 3 healing, you might be f'd already)
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: DEATH.

    25m:
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 1: Healer cd 1
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 2: Healer cd 2
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 3: Healer cd 3
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: Healer cd 4*
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: Healer cd 5
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: Healer cd 6
    .....

    See the difference? Sure you might be lucky to have some rogues or whatnot that can also cd the raid, but that holds for 25m as well.
    Except that up untill now, you have to use 2x tranqs in 25 man to get anything even close to the effect of 1x tranq in 10 man. Going by that logic, obviously you use 2x cooldowns for everytime 10 man uses one on Qon, as long as we're not talking a disc priest CD. Remember, monks/druids/shaman cds are all throughput ("tranqs"), paladin's can't be used (phys dmg from the fist smash, not magic), leaving only barrier as the last "viable" solo-CD from a healer in 25 man.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    You don't have higher iLvl, that's just nonsense, it's all about RNG, you still get the same amount of loot per player, sure you might not get something any of your raid members need in 10m, but same situation is in 25m(All hunters have weapons and boss drops 2 ranged weps? Wasted loot)
    10 man is less loot per person as well as lower chance at thunderforge gear. On top of higher chance of DEing loot. We literally had to DE heroic progression gear cause no one needed it. 25 man is becoming a joke now.

    Jin-roch - stack and heal through thunder storm even with the balls
    Horridon - 3 tanks + more external cds on them. + not 100% of the healers having direhorn is a nice plus.
    Council - Frostbite? lol whats that oh thing you let people die and get berezed with
    Tortos - eh who cares
    Megeara - what a joke on 25.
    Ji-kun - Easier on 10 still easy on 25
    Durumu - Dark animus - haven't done yet on heroic
    Iron qon - Easy on 10 man with good dps. Last phase sucks though
    Twins - joke on both now
    LEi shen - haven't done
    Ra - den - looks to be a joke on both formats even more so on 25

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 10:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Except that up untill now, you have to use 2x tranqs in 25 man to get anything even close to the effect of 1x tranq in 10 man. Going by that logic, obviously you use 2x cooldowns for everytime 10 man uses one on Qon, as long as we're not talking a disc priest CD. Remember, monks/druids/shaman cds are all throughput ("tranqs"), paladin's can't be used (phys dmg from the fist smash, not magic), leaving only barrier as the last "viable" solo-CD from a healer in 25 man.
    You do know that tornadoes do as much damage as the smash and are always ticking right?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post
    You do know that tornadoes do as much damage as the smash and are always ticking right?
    So... what does this prove, except that damage reductions are far superior to healing cooldowns in 25 man raids? I'm trying to figure out what's your point here, beyond "lol, 25 mans will be a joke because Divine Hymn will actually heal more than 30% of the raid".
    Last edited by KaPe; 2013-04-23 at 02:15 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callypso View Post
    No, the reason is that in 25m you have way more cd's to chain. Sure, a tranq may be more effective in 10m relatively speaking, but you can still only use it once / 3 minutes. That's not the problem, reduction cd's are.

    Several bosses have a soft enrage or ramping up damage near the end of the fight: Megaera, Animus, Iron Qon and Lei Shen come to mind.

    Let's take Iron Qon as an example:

    10m:
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 1: Healer cd 1
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 2: Healer cd 2
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 3: Healer cd 3 (If you're 3 healing, you might be f'd already)
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: DEATH.

    25m:
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 1: Healer cd 1
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 2: Healer cd 2
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 3: Healer cd 3
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: Healer cd 4*
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: Healer cd 5
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: Healer cd 6
    .....

    See the difference? Sure you might be lucky to have some rogues or whatnot that can also cd the raid, but that holds for 25m as well.
    This is terrible logic. Just looking at this one would think how could anyone kill anything on 10 man? The truth is, which is not mentioned anywhere in your post, that to compensate for the fact that you have less healers in 10man, those abilities such as Fist Smash on IQ either do far less damage in 10 man OR they happen far less frequently.

    This is a long overdue change, healing throughput cooldowns were just so much better per cast in 10 man than they were in 25 man. It's really simple math but some people are just clueless unfortunately

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    This is terrible logic. Just looking at this one would think how could anyone kill anything on 10 man? The truth is, which is not mentioned anywhere in your post, that to compensate for the fact that you have less healers in 10man, those abilities such as Fist Smash on IQ either do far less damage in 10 man OR they happen far less frequently.

    This is a long overdue change, healing throughput cooldowns were just so much better per cast in 10 man than they were in 25 man. It's really simple math but some people are just clueless unfortunately
    This just isn't true this tier. Almost everything hits just as hard except melee swings on the tanks. Look in the dungeon journal if you don't believe me.

  6. #26
    Are you mad because Blizzard are addressing an issue that (at least MWs) healers have been annoyed about for a long time? If anything it makes the two raid settings easier to balance, thus providing more enjoyable and balanced raid content.

  7. #27
    Please lets not turn this into a 10m vs 25m thread. This is a welcome change for 25m raids. Now I wonder what their reasoning is for not changing Healing Tide Totem

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Good. Cooldowns will now be balanced across the two difficulties. It was dumb that healing cooldowns (tranq, revival etc) were double as strong in 10 man compared to 25 man, while reduction cooldowns were the same strength.
    Basic maths notwithstanding, the conclusions are wrong. I'm not gonna get into a 10vs25 discussion, but anybody(most people?) who's healed in both will agree healing in 10 is more challenging.

    Looking at heroics here: (mean kill hps: 10/25) - Be aware 25 has FAR more raid cd's, and that it's usually a minimum of 5-7 healers vs 2-3 in 10 man.

    Jinrok'h: 10 - 236k | 25 - 536k (44%)
    Horridon: 10 - 176k | 25 - 325k (54%)
    Council: 10 - 325k | 25 - 700k (47%)

    Tortos: 10 - 346k | 25 - 833k (42%)
    Megaera: 10 - 397k | 25 - 726k (55%)
    Ji Kun: not included - bad logging

    Durumu: 10 - 210k | 25 - 571k (37%)
    Primordius: 10 - 370k | 25 - 708k (53%)
    Dark Anus: not enough data

    Iron qon: 10 - 333k | 25 - 807k (42%)

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 03:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Except that up untill now, you have to use 2x tranqs in 25 man to get anything even close to the effect of 1x tranq in 10 man. Going by that logic, obviously you use 2x cooldowns for everytime 10 man uses one on Qon, as long as we're not talking a disc priest CD. Remember, monks/druids/shaman cds are all throughput ("tranqs"), paladin's can't be used (phys dmg from the fist smash, not magic), leaving only barrier as the last "viable" solo-CD from a healer in 25 man.
    BoP can't be used? Rallying cry/banner can't be? Smoke bomb can't be? SLT can't be? Looking at your last kill, 3 warriors, a rogue, 3 paladins, 2 resto shamans. thats SLT's covering 50%, smoke bombs, crys and banners for all. Not to mention personals/tranqs/etc and bops to top people who are low.
    Last edited by oggyowl; 2013-04-23 at 02:49 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by reohh View Post
    Please lets not turn this into a 10m vs 25m thread. This is a welcome change for 25m raids. Now I wonder what their reasoning is for not changing Healing Tide Totem
    They probably still hope they can balance this particular talent tier and buffing HTT would make other ones even more useless. Should probably just make the damn thing baseline, buff it in the same way and introduce some useless talent in it's place.

  10. #30
    Healing is also a lot simpler to do in 10 man on an individual level for each healer, because everything is much cleaner and easier to do when you only have to worry about 10 health bars and virtually no space issues. 25 man requires more communication, as well as planning CDs and healing targets.
    Last edited by DetectiveJohnKimble; 2013-04-23 at 02:57 PM.

  11. #31
    25man may have more raid cds but it also has 15 extra people that require healing, also healers are not the only ones with raid cds fyi. Warriors have raid cds, shamans of any spec have raid cds, rogues have raid cd, druids of any spec have raid cd, priests of any spec have a raid cd, deathknights have a raid cd and the list goes on. If you're 10-man team wants to it can get tons of raid cds.

    Saying 10-man healing is more challenging because it doesn't have as many raid cds is quite ignorant, in both formats healers consist of 20% of your raid so it is only fair the healing cds behave the same on either format much like damage reduction cooldowns do.
    Isheria - Method - Twisting Nether

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post
    This just isn't true this tier. Almost everything hits just as hard except melee swings on the tanks. Look in the dungeon journal if you don't believe me.
    Uh no? You couldn't be more wrong. If you actually read my orginal post you would see I said it either does less damage OR happens less frequently.

    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Basic maths notwithstanding, the conclusions are wrong. I'm not gonna get into a 10vs25 discussion, but anybody(most people?) who's healed in both will agree healing in 10 is more challenging.

    Looking at heroics here: (mean kill hps: 10/25) - Be aware 25 has FAR more raid cd's, and that it's usually a minimum of 5-7 healers vs 2-3 in 10 man.

    Jinrok'h: 10 - 236k | 25 - 536k (44%)
    Horridon: 10 - 176k | 25 - 325k (54%)
    Council: 10 - 325k | 25 - 700k (47%)

    Tortos: 10 - 346k | 25 - 833k (42%)
    Megaera: 10 - 397k | 25 - 726k (55%)
    Ji Kun: not included - bad logging

    Durumu: 10 - 210k | 25 - 571k (37%)
    Primordius: 10 - 370k | 25 - 708k (53%)
    Dark Anus: not enough data

    Iron qon: 10 - 333k | 25 - 807k (42%)

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 03:36 PM ----------



    BoP can't be used? Rallying cry/banner can't be? Smoke bomb can't be? SLT can't be? Looking at your last kill, 3 warriors, a rogue, 3 paladins, 2 resto shamans. thats SLT's covering 50%, smoke bombs, crys and banners for all. Not to mention personals/tranqs/etc and bops to top people who are low.
    7 healers? Why don't you look through logs and tell us how many heroic kills use 7 healers. Then take a step back and realize that those 7 healers still make up less of your raid than 3 healers on 10 man do.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-04-23 at 03:04 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Isheria View Post
    25man may have more raid cds but it also has 15 extra people that require healing, also healers are not the only ones with raid cds fyi. Warriors have raid cds, shamans of any spec have raid cds, rogues have raid cd, druids of any spec have raid cd, priests of any spec have a raid cd, deathknights have a raid cd and the list goes on. If you're 10-man team wants to it can get tons of raid cds.

    Saying 10-man healing is more challenging because it doesn't have as many raid cds is quite ignorant, in both formats healers consist of 20% of your raid so it is only fair the healing cds behave the same on either format much like damage reduction cooldowns do.
    There's the same number of 'high dmg phases' that require those cd's in both difficulties though, therefore 25 can chain more of them for each phase. A 10m may have 1 rogue and 1 warrior, whereas a 25m could have 3 of each. That's mitigation 3x as often on megaera or fist smash or something. More mitigation is less risk of death/ damage taken.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    There's the same number of 'high dmg phases' that require those cd's in both difficulties though, therefore 25 can chain more of them for each phase. A 10m may have 1 rogue and 1 warrior, whereas a 25m could have 3 of each. That's mitigation 3x as often on megaera or fist smash or something. More mitigation is less risk of death/ damage taken.
    Again it's painfully obvious that 25man will have MORE raid CDs since they have more players. You really think Blizzard didn't think of that? How could they possibly balance for that? Those abilities that require CDs are less painful in 10man than in 25man in order to compensate. It's not rocket science really....
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-04-23 at 03:09 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    7 healers? Why don't you look through logs and tell us how many heroic kills use 7 healers. Then take a step back and realize that those 7 healers still make up less of your raid than 3 healers on 10 man do.
    I'd rather stay closer to the topic of raidcd's for 25v10's versus an all out argument about 2 different formats.

    But take megaera as an example. Very similar on both formats. 7(0.28) vs 3(0.30). Plug in the 397k vs 726k. Tell me whether 10m is really taxed that much less.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 04:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Again it's painfully obvious that 25man will have MORE raid CDs since they have more players. You really think Blizzard didn't think of that? How could they possibly balance for that? Those abilities that require CDs are less painful in 10man than in 25man in order to compensate. It's not rocket science really....
    ergo the buff to non mitigation cd's isn't needed as you have more mitigation cd's anyway? Stop being condescending and discuss it properly with some sort of evidence. I've given examples as to why the buff isn't required, think about the math and do the same. Don't go 'derp 25m has more people.

    [here's an example from iron qon, more 25m fist smashes, assuming both guilds used the mitigation they had:

    method: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/0pc62...47/?s=15&e=584 - 53m dmg
    deus ex: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-r7...7/?s=226&e=817 - 27m dmg

    - hitting harder in 10 due to mitigation]
    Last edited by oggyowl; 2013-04-23 at 03:18 PM.

  16. #36
    10 man - random us parse I found. Hps for the raid was 390k

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xi...e=9304#Noxnzee

    25 man - random us parse I found. Hps for the raid was 714k

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o4...949#Juicyjonny

    Twice the amount of healers and less then twice the amount of damage. Go figure.

    25 man is the only real format though... /sarcasm

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post
    This just isn't true this tier. Almost everything hits just as hard except melee swings on the tanks. Look in the dungeon journal if you don't believe me.

    Fist Smash Value: 29250 to 30750 - 10 Player (Heroic)
    Value: 34125 to 35875 - 25 Player (Heroic)


    Dire Call School Damage (Physical)
    Value: 250000
    Value: 270000 - 25 Player (Heroic) (This one means raid cooldowns aren't even needed on 10 by the way)

    Interrupting Jolt
    School Damage (Nature)
    Value: 341250 to 358750 - 10 Player (Heroic)
    School Damage (Nature)
    Value: 463125 to 486875 - 25 Player (Heroic)

    Crashing Star
    Value: 292500 to 307500 - 10 Player (Heroic)
    Value: 321750 to 338250 - 25 Player (Heroic)


    Just pulling it straight from wowhead here.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post
    10 man - random us parse I found. Hps for the raid was 390k

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xi...e=9304#Noxnzee

    25 man - random us parse I found. Hps for the raid was 714k

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o4...949#Juicyjonny

    Twice the amount of healers and less then twice the amount of damage. Go figure.

    25 man is the only real format though... /sarcasm
    You can't just use random parses and say 'oh look 10 is harder' - check out the averages over all the kills and stuff. I suspect it'll swing both ways for the individual bosses. The scope of discussion here is limited to healing CD buffs though.

    edit: suspect it may go live as a healer only (not moonkin/symbiosis) buff.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    I'd rather stay closer to the topic of raidcd's for 25v10's versus an all out argument about 2 different formats.

    But take megaera as an example. Very similar on both formats. 7(0.28) vs 3(0.30). Plug in the 397k vs 726k. Tell me whether 10m is really taxed that much less.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 04:14 PM ----------



    ergo the buff to non mitigation cd's isn't needed as you have more mitigation cd's anyway? Stop being condescending and discuss it properly with some sort of evidence. I've given examples as to why the buff isn't required, think about the math and do the same. Don't go 'derp 25m has more people.

    [here's an example from iron qon, more 25m fist smashes, assuming both guilds used the mitigation they had:

    method: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/0pc62...47/?s=15&e=584 - 53m dmg
    deus ex: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-r7...7/?s=226&e=817 - 27m dmg

    - hitting harder in 10 due to mitigation]
    Right so if 25 man has MORE mitigation CDs in order to deal with the increase damage/frequency then that area makes sense. But healing throughput CDs are used as well and very much apart of your Rampage/Fist Smash Healing CD rotation. If a Resto Druid in his 10man uses his tranq for a Rampage/Fist Smash then he heals 50% of his raid - conversely in 25man if 2 Resto Druids use their Tranq combined they will heal 40% of the raid when we have established the raid itself is taking more damage per player over the course of the spell.

    And you might as well stop using 7 healers as any kind of argument. It almost NEVER happens, especially early in progression when you need every bit of DPS to beat enrages. It's easier mathematically to focus on 3 for 10 man and 6 for 25 man.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-04-23 at 03:35 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Right so if 25 man has MORE mitigation CDs in order to deal the increase damage/frequency then that area makes sense. But healing throughput CDs are used as well and very much apart of your Rampage/Fist Smash Healing CD rotation. If a Resto Druid in his 10man uses his tranq for a Rampage/Fist Smash then he heals 50% of his raid - conversely in 25man if 2 Resto Druids use their Tranq combined they will heal 40% of the raid when we have established the raid itself is taking more damage per player over the course of the spell.
    Agreed to some extent (assuming the mitigation cd's roughly balance to it to equal dmg and not more), but is it balanced to give moonkins/symbiosis targets the buff, as we've already established the more people in the raid, the more 25m dmg is being pulled into line with 10m damage anyway?

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