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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post

    And you might as well stop using 7 healers as any kind of argument. It almost NEVER happens, especially early in progression when you need every bit of DPS to beat enrages. It's easier mathematically to focus on 3 for 10 man and 6 for 25 man.
    And you can stop using 3 vs 6, as for a lot of progress fights, in 10 man guilds use 2 healers, when they need every bit of DPS to beat enrages.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Agreed to some extent (assuming the mitigation cd's roughly balance to it to equal dmg and not more), but is it balanced to give moonkins/symbiosis targets the buff, as we've already established the more people in the raid, the more 25m dmg is being pulled into line with 10m damage anyway?
    Well Moonkins/Ferals/Guardians/Shadow (VE only, the Shadow tranq is putrid healing) are the only non healer CD that get buffed by this, so if you wanted to argue that 25mans could now stack multiple non Resto druids and Shadow priests in addition to their 6 healers and give themselves an advantage over 10 mans who have to heal through that damage then I would agree. But keep in mind those non resto druid Tranqs have an 8 minute cooldown, so it's not entirely practical. And also a 10 man adding just one of the above classes would close the gap considerably.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-04-23 at 03:53 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    You don't have higher iLvl, that's just nonsense, it's all about RNG, you still get the same amount of loot per player, sure you might not get something any of your raid members need in 10m, but same situation is in 25m(All hunters have weapons and boss drops 2 ranged weps? Wasted loot)
    Is this post serious?

    It may not make a difference for world-first caliber guilds, but every week that goes by a 25 man guild pulls farther and farther ahead of an equally progressed 10 man guild. It was this way before Blunderforged gear. Now it's just a joke.
    Last edited by Shimitsu; 2013-04-23 at 03:57 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohendar View Post
    And you can stop using 3 vs 6, as for a lot of progress fights, in 10 man guilds use 2 healers, when they need every bit of DPS to beat enrages.
    Really? So the first 2 10 man kills of Ra-den (a huge gear check) didn't use 3 healers? (Paragon and Sanitas) I would check again.

  5. #45
    Well here's my 2 cents.

    Blizzard said specifically they make their encounters as a 1:2.5 ideology.


    With that put into perspective you have the occasional 2 healer or 3 healer in 10man. 2x2.5 equaling 5 heals.


    Now if we used 3 in a particular fight, 3x2.5 is 7.5.

    If fights that 10man uses 3 healers, 25man SHOULD go with 7(.5). Although, because of their vast number of cooldowns they don't need that '7th'(.5) because you can't lose out on dps. Which means they don't, by Blizzard standards, statistically need as many main healers - and that is because of hybrid heals and other CDs. That means we in 10man have to remove an entire dps slot just to have a healer, whereas 25man can actually compensate and go with 6 healers. That means basically; 25man makes up 1.5 of a MAIN healer through their dps's mitigation CDs and hybrid heal abilities. Hardly any 10man can do the same, you would have to literally design your 10man and have a crew of 10+5 and switch in and out players to correctly get the power a 25man can come 5.3.



    Where I stand? The buff is too much imo, either it shouldn't have happened or it could be less. If it is going to be buffed, then it shouldn't be by this much. Because 25mans do strictly go 5-6 healers, which is 2x2.5 to 3x2 what we use in 10man, the buff should have only been 2x not 2.5x - as again, dps in 25man can make up an entire healer's worth, or more, if needed(so healing 10 people instead of the 12 it is listing).


    In another way of looking at it. For fights 10man has to 3 heal, we have to go up 1.5x (50% more) our current number of healers. 25man only has to go up x1.2(20% more) AS IT IS NOW. Also the missing dps makes up 10% of our raid dps, while 25man loses 4% of their raid dps. (To do the math, 2 tanks 2 heals 6 dps, 60% of group dps, each dps = 10% of group, equalling fairly said 10%-13% of raid's dps. 2 tanks, 18 dps, 5 healers, 18/25 dps make up 72% of the group, 72/18 finds how much each dps does, 4% again losing 4%-6%.

    That's the math for'yah!
    Last edited by Shadowblade7x; 2013-04-23 at 04:02 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Really? So the first 2 10 man kills of Ra-den (a huge gear check) didn't use 3 healers? (Paragon and Sanitas) I would check again.
    He said "a lot" not all. Reading is difficult for some.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post
    He said "a lot" not all. Reading is difficult for some.
    Can you think of a fight in Throne that is bigger gear check than Ra-den? Would love to hear it. The attacking nature and immaturity of your posts is rather hysterical.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Can you think of a fight in Throne that is bigger gear check than Ra-den? Would love to hear it. The attacking nature and immaturity of your posts is rather hysterical.
    Its a huge gear check yet guilds are forced to 3 heal it where as 25 is 5 healing it. Something doesn't seem broken to you? I love your ability to nit pick peoples post and turn their words against them.

    Anyways back on topic. If this buff is to bring healer throughput cds in line with DR cds then that is cool. Just have to realize that this is a direct nerf to 25 man content ( a huge one at that).

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post

    Jin-roch - stack and heal through thunder storm even with the balls
    Horridon - 3 tanks + more external cds on them. + not 100% of the healers having direhorn is a nice plus.
    Council - Frostbite? lol whats that oh thing you let people die and get berezed with
    Tortos - eh who cares
    Megeara - what a joke on 25.
    Ji-kun - Easier on 10 still easy on 25
    Durumu - Dark animus - haven't done yet on heroic
    Iron qon - Easy on 10 man with good dps. Last phase sucks though
    Twins - joke on both now
    LEi shen - haven't done
    Ra - den - looks to be a joke on both formats even more so on 25


    Just to make 100% sure here - the only reason you can do the above things are overgearing. No guilds progressing with the intended gear would be able to ignore lightning storm, waste their resses on frostbites, sacrifice dps for tanks on Horridon (enrage was TIGHT the first reset or two) etc... Just not feasible. Mind that the dino's also choose Ranged dps>Healers>Melee, meaning that if you run a "balanced" 25 man setup of 5 healers, 2 tanks, 8 melee dps, 10 ranged dps, you will have healers getting Dino'd at the sixth dire call and onwards, and every healer will be dino'd by the end of the fight along with all melee.
    And likewise, 10 mans overgearing the content can do absolutely insane stuff too (like dropping 33% of their healers on jin rokh, for example) with equal gear.


    You do know that tornadoes do as much damage as the smash and are always ticking right?
    Sorry, that's just not true according to the journal. You might want to check your information first -
    10 Heroic fist smash: 30K dmg per 0.75 sec for 7.5 seconds.
    25 Heroic fist smash: 35K dmg per 0.75 sec for 7.5 seconds.
    Likewise, "Ignite cyclone" is a 30K 10 man, 33K 25 man pulse.

    It's not the same damage as the smash, it's another ability he uses in the last phase .

    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post
    This just isn't true this tier. Almost everything hits just as hard except melee swings on the tanks. Look in the dungeon journal if you don't believe me.
    I feel I did a pretty good job on the first page pointing out the ocean of differences between 10 and 25 man dmg in this tier. And yes, this is one of the more "balanced" tiers - meaning that it's usually FAR worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Basic maths notwithstanding, the conclusions are wrong. I'm not gonna get into a 10vs25 discussion, but anybody(most people?) who's healed in both will agree healing in 10 is more challenging.

    Looking at heroics here: (mean kill hps: 10/25) - Be aware 25 has FAR more raid cd's, and that it's usually a minimum of 5-7 healers vs 2-3 in 10 man.

    Jinrok'h: 10 - 236k | 25 - 536k (44%)
    Horridon: 10 - 176k | 25 - 325k (54%)
    Council: 10 - 325k | 25 - 700k (47%)

    Tortos: 10 - 346k | 25 - 833k (42%)
    Megaera: 10 - 397k | 25 - 726k (55%)
    Ji Kun: not included - bad logging

    Durumu: 10 - 210k | 25 - 571k (37%)
    Primordius: 10 - 370k | 25 - 708k (53%)
    Dark Anus: not enough data

    Iron qon: 10 - 333k | 25 - 807k (42%)

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 03:36 PM ----------

    First off, having done 7/8 heroic on my resto druid in our main raids in DS while thereafter healing 8/8 heroic (with 10% nerf) in our alt raid 10 man, I can safely say that in DS, healing was far harder in 25 man atleast. Having done almost all 25 man heroics on my druid while lacking a healer in T14 (minus sha and protectors), and having done 10 of them on my priest healer, 25 man was also the hardest to heal there. So I'd have to strongly disagree with the "agreeing that 10 is harder". There's less targets to take care of, and it's easier to assign responsibilities, along with stuff dealing less damage.


    That being said, 2-3 healers in a 10 man is equal to 5-7.5 in 25 man. 3 Healers in 10 can push out more HPS comparable to 7 healers in 25 man. There's also the fact that damage reductions, which are obviously more common in 25 man, will skew the results. Overall, 25 mans do more damage on a player-per-player basis (usually, in a 1:3 instead of a 1:2.5 scenario).
    On Jin rokh, for example, all the damage numbers are "equal" - everything does the same dmg in 10 and 25 man. Therefore, 25 man does less overall damage because AM's/demo banners are more common in 25 than in 10.
    The same can be seen on Mag, where nothing else has different values, but the damage comes in 20 second bursts, with far more dmg-reduction cooldowns aviable.

    On a fight like Durumu, however, where the beams are skewered to hurt 25 man more, you can see that there's far more to heal.

    With all that being said, you also have to remember that any fight where 10 man uses 3 healers is a "7.5" healer fight for a 25 man. Jin rokh is usually healed by 6 people in a 25 man, but by 3 in a 10 man. Each healer has to pull far more weight. Add on top of this, 10 mans with DK/paladin tanks pulling a far greater percentage of the raid healing without actually BEING a healer.
    Ultimately, there's the fact that the healing cooldowns (right now) are far superior in 10 compared to 25.


    BoP can't be used? Rallying cry/banner can't be? Smoke bomb can't be? SLT can't be? Looking at your last kill, 3 warriors, a rogue, 3 paladins, 2 resto shamans. thats SLT's covering 50%, smoke bombs, crys and banners for all. Not to mention personals/tranqs/etc and bops to top people who are low.
    Uuuh... Excuse me? When did I complain that my guild didn't have enough cooldowns? We killed Qon in 8 attempts, and have facerolled him on the rekill too. Cooldowns was never an issue either, as he hits like a little girl. It was purely a fictional scenario we were speaking of - not how my raid is set up (also, who on earth uses bops against the smash lol? reset the tank's stacks <3).



    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    [here's an example from iron qon, more 25m fist smashes, assuming both guilds used the mitigation they had:

    method: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/0pc62...47/?s=15&e=584 - 53m dmg
    deus ex: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-r7...7/?s=226&e=817 - 27m dmg

    - hitting harder in 10 due to mitigation]
    Thats just silly. You can't compare it like that, considering the fact that they have 4 rogues in method's raid (feint for huge dmg reduc personal CD) for example, and used 3 tanks vs 1. In general, their armor classes are also favorable towards reducing the dmg from the smash, and their kill was shorter (meaning that the Deus smashes would hit harder due to the fight lasting longer).
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-04-23 at 04:23 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    [/FONT]
    Just to make 100% sure here - the only reason you can do the above things are overgearing. No guilds progressing with the intended gear would be able to ignore lightning storm, waste their resses on frostbites, sacrifice dps for tanks on Horridon (enrage was TIGHT the first reset or two) etc... Just not feasible. Mind that the dino's also choose Ranged dps>Healers>Melee, meaning that if you run a "balanced" 25 man setup of 5 healers, 2 tanks, 8 melee dps, 10 ranged dps, you will have healers getting Dino'd at the sixth dire call and onwards, and every healer will be dino'd by the end of the fight along with all melee.
    And likewise, 10 mans overgearing the content can do absolutely insane stuff too (like dropping 33% of their healers on jin rokh, for example) with equal gear.




    Sorry, that's just not true according to the journal. You might want to check your information first -
    10 Heroic fist smash: 30K dmg per 0.75 sec for 7.5 seconds.
    25 Heroic fist smash: 35K dmg per 0.75 sec for 7.5 seconds.
    Likewise, "Ignite cyclone" is a 30K 10 man, 33K 25 man pulse.

    It's not the same damage as the smash, it's another ability he uses in the last phase .



    I feel I did a pretty good job on the first page pointing out the ocean of differences between 10 and 25 man dmg in this tier. And yes, this is one of the more "balanced" tiers - meaning that it's usually FAR worse.



    First off, having done 7/8 heroic on my resto druid in our main raids in DS while thereafter healing 8/8 heroic (with 10% nerf) in our alt raid 10 man, I can safely say that in DS, healing was far harder in 25 man atleast. Having done almost all 25 man heroics on my druid while lacking a healer in T14 (minus sha and protectors), and having done 10 of them on my priest healer, 25 man was also the hardest to heal there. So I'd have to strongly disagree with the "agreeing that 10 is harder". There's less targets to take care of, and it's easier to assign responsibilities, along with stuff dealing less damage.


    That being said, 2-3 healers in a 10 man is equal to 5-7.5 in 25 man. 3 Healers in 10 can push out more HPS comparable to 7 healers in 25 man. There's also the fact that damage reductions, which are obviously more common in 25 man, will skew the results. Overall, 25 mans do more damage on a player-per-player basis (usually, in a 1:3 instead of a 1:2.5 scenario).
    On Jin rokh, for example, all the damage numbers are "equal" - everything does the same dmg in 10 and 25 man. Therefore, 25 man does less overall damage because AM's/demo banners are more common in 25 than in 10.
    The same can be seen on Mag, where nothing else has different values, but the damage comes in 20 second bursts, with far more dmg-reduction cooldowns aviable.

    On a fight like Durumu, however, where the beams are skewered to hurt 25 man more, you can see that there's far more to heal.

    With all that being said, you also have to remember that any fight where 10 man uses 3 healers is a "7.5" healer fight for a 25 man. Jin rokh is usually healed by 6 people in a 25 man, but by 3 in a 10 man. Each healer has to pull far more weight. Add on top of this, 10 mans with DK/paladin tanks pulling a far greater percentage of the raid healing without actually BEING a healer.
    Ultimately, there's the fact that the healing cooldowns (right now) are far superior in 10 compared to 25.




    Uuuh... Excuse me? When did I complain that my guild didn't have enough cooldowns? We killed Qon in 8 attempts, and have facerolled him on the rekill too. Cooldowns was never an issue either, as he hits like a little girl. It was purely a fictional scenario we were speaking of - not how my raid is set up (also, who on earth uses bops against the smash lol? reset the tank's stacks <3).
    Cata was a different expansion with different ideas for balance between 10 and 25. T11 was vastly over tuned in 10 man and t12-13 were over tuned on 25. I feel like T14-T15 are pretty close with 10 man being still after the nerfs still slightly over tuned. Outside of healer balance in 25 I just think its ridiculous to say that 25 man "needs" these changes.

    And for those of you saying that it is difficult to manage cds in 25 man that is just insane. It takes 10 minutes before the raid to figure out whos going to use cds and when. If you want a more dynamic approach theres also multiple addons that tell you the status of each raiders cds.

  11. #51
    Pandaren Monk Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iDrunkenheal View Post
    Its a huge gear check yet guilds are forced to 3 heal it where as 25 is 5 healing it. Something doesn't seem broken to you? I love your ability to nit pick peoples post and turn their words against them.

    Anyways back on topic. If this buff is to bring healer throughput cds in line with DR cds then that is cool. Just have to realize that this is a direct nerf to 25 man content ( a huge one at that).
    I don't really understand the first part of your post, because it doesn't really mean anything. You have no idea whatsoever whether 10 man guilds are 3 healing it because the damage is so intense and they need to, or because the DPS is so lax and they can afford to. And the exact same thing goes for 25 man. This whole thing started because I said that using 7 healers for 25 man in an argument is rediculous because it literally never happens. Then the guy above countered that by saying I shouldn't use 3 healers in my argument against 10 man, which is rediculous because as we can clearly see it is used ALL the time. 2-3 healers are the standard for 10 man and 5-6 are the standard for 25. Period.

    And as far as the 2nd part of your post yes it is nerf to bring the overall difficulty of 25 man raiding more in line with 10 man raiding. For now, at least. For all we know they could be planning on ramping up the damage even more in 25 man raids next tier.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-04-23 at 04:30 PM.

  12. #52
    It's more about healer balance than just straight across 25m buffing. With H Pallies and Disc Priests as they are, Resto Druids for one are painfully behind.

    10m:
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 1: Healer cd 1
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 2: Healer cd 2
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 3: Healer cd 3 (If you're 3 healing, you might be f'd already)
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: DEATH.

    25m:
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 1: Healer cd 1
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 2: Healer cd 2
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 3: Healer cd 3
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: Healer cd 4*
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: Healer cd 5
    Otherwise lethal Fist Smash 4: Healer cd 6
    I dunno, I killed it in both 10 and 25 and we had enough healing CDs to cover both. It's not like Fist Smash does the same amount of damage in each mode so the ramp up isn't the same. And if you're healer CDing the first 2-3, then you're wasting them anyways, the first few can be healed through.

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