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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Btw, why mods are tolerating the racism towards Exorsus?
    Because MMo Champ mods only get pissed off when people trash the US.

    And lol, 14-16h rading per day and not even world first on Lei Shen? Holy fuck, there are guilds out there that raid 3-4 days per week and are close to clearing the content. To me those guilds are much more talented than a bunch of retards who actually have to camp out in the raid to be able to kill shit. Just amazing.

  2. #42
    Exactly, 16 hours is the amount an usual heroic raiding guild puts into raiding for a whole week. My signature pointed out Riggnaros saying, that time investment is not a big part of endgame raiding... jek.

  3. #43
    Mechagnome khatsoo's Avatar
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    Jealousy everywhere? Everyone plays the game at the pace they want and I welcome the hardcore guilds for camping out the raid, such great feats that I'm personally not interested in; I'm casually about to clear normal content and I'm really happy with it, we'll see how many heroics we can down. Just stop all the rage and have fun the way YOU game.

  4. #44
    High Overlord Vilbu's Avatar
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    Mogu Runes of Fate: Reduced the number of Lesser Charms of Good Fortune needed for the Mogu Runes of Fate weekly quest to 50, down from 90.

    Awesome that they finally realized that the 90 lesser charms was a bit overkill for the players who can't play every day.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by khatsoo View Post
    Jealousy everywhere? Everyone plays the game at the pace they want and I welcome the hardcore guilds for camping out the raid, such great feats that I'm personally not interested in; I'm casually about to clear normal content and I'm really happy with it, we'll see how many heroics we can down. Just stop all the rage and have fun the way YOU game.
    No, these guys claim to be "the best in the world" when that's obviously not the case. If they were, they wouldn't have to spend all their waking hours in a raid to be able to clear it, people with normal lives and normal raiding hours who are now at 10 or 11 heroics are actually much more skilled than guilds like method who, not only spend 1 month and a half actually living in a raid to be able to comprehend the strategies, but even started earlier than actual progress by spamming the encounters on the ptr.

    Now I'm in none of these cases as I play casually, it simply boggles my mind that anyone could think that these guys who have to spend their entire life in a raid to understand it are actually good. They're at the upper most "persistent", but certainly not "good".

    I guess what's really depressing about this, is that the only pre-requisite for a world first has become to have unlimited play time.
    Last edited by kouby; 2013-04-23 at 10:56 AM.

  6. #46
    Mechagnome Neetz's Avatar
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    I think they're amazing players and all in these top guilds, but the way things are dealt with like complaining about others streaming because people can see tactics, or posting one guilds kill video before anothers because of favouritism?? or because of god knows? it's like a bloody cat fight. Not to mention the 10 vs 25 rant, jesus.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by kouby View Post
    No, these guys claim to be "the best in the world" when that's obviously not the case. If they were, they wouldn't have to spend all their waking hours in a raid to be able to clear it, people with normal lives and normal raiding hours who are now at 10 or 11 heroics are actually much more skilled than guilds like method who, not only spend 1 month and a half actually living in a raid to be able to comprehend the strategies, but even started earlier than actual progress by spamming the encounters on the ptr.

    Now I'm in none of these cases as I play casually, it simply boggles my mind that anyone could think that these guys who have to spend their entire life in a raid to understand it are actually good. They're at the upper most "persistent", but certainly not "good".
    I'm very sure, that when you limit every guild in the world to 12h/week the ranking would be the same. Every limited boss in the history of WoW has the same guilds at the top. Even instances like ICC where the hard bosses all had limited tries had the same guilds at the top. But it would be really interesting to see the amount of tries each guild needs for every boss PLUS a complete NDA on any tactic. No video, no guide until the top 100~ have killed the boss. So every guild has to develope their own tactic and the guild with less tries is obiviously performing better.
    I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn, they will be gone - whispering their hidden song...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by kouby View Post
    No, these guys claim to be "the best in the world" when that's obviously not the case. If they were, they wouldn't have to spend all their waking hours in a raid to be able to clear it, people with normal lives and normal raiding hours who are now at 10 or 11 heroics are actually much more skilled than guilds like method who, not only spend 1 month and a half actually living in a raid to be able to comprehend the strategies, but even started earlier than actual progress by spamming the encounters on the ptr.

    Now I'm in none of these cases as I play casually, it simply boggles my mind that anyone could think that these guys who have to spend their entire life in a raid to understand it are actually good. They're at the upper most "persistent", but certainly not "good".
    Following you argument, everyone who is exceptionally good with something due to long and hard practice, is not worth the approval, because they needed so much time to practice. It's like saying, an exceptional good piano player, that practices about 8 hours a day (and believe me, they do), is worse than some guy out there, who only practices 4 hours a day and who is playing quite nice.

    There is only one method to measure the rank of a guild quantitatively, and that is by kill order or progress speed. No one can really say what would happen, if Method was only allowed to play for a certain amount of time per week. No one would tell an athlete to only workout or practice their sport with a constraint, that would be kind of strange, right?
    Well, one can say what happens, if a guild is only allowed a certain amount of tries per week, I think we have seen that this tier.

    And I really like if someone says, a guild can post whatever and whenever they want on their channel/page and in the same post gets upset about a newssite, that does not post exactly the news this person wants to be posted.

    (sorry for my english, not a native speaker)

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Montuh View Post
    Following you argument, everyone who is exceptionally good with something due to long and hard practice, is not worth the approval, because they needed so much time to practice. It's like saying, an exceptional good piano player, that practices about 8 hours a day (and believe me, they do), is worse than some guy out there, who only practices 4 hours a day and who is playing quite nice.

    There is only one method to measure the rank of a guild quantitatively, and that is by kill order or progress speed. No one can really say what would happen, if Method was only allowed to play for a certain amount of time per week. No one would tell an athlete to only workout or practice their sport with a constraint, that would be kind of strange, right?
    Well, one can say what happens, if a guild is only allowed a certain amount of tries per week, I think we have seen that this tier.

    And I really like if someone says, a guild can post whatever and whenever they want on their channel/page and in the same post gets upset about a newssite, that does not post exactly the news this person wants to be posted.

    (sorry for my english, not a native speaker)
    This has got nothing to do with learning a skill as complicated as playing piano, this is wow, this is a video game, you can learn how to dps competitively with any class and any spec just by reading a forum, I'd like to see you learn to play piano by reading a forum post...

    So this is what it has come to? Skill is measured by time spent?

    You see, with your analogy, I'd think someone who learned piano in a few days is much more talented than some guy who had to spend months on end learning the same skill.

    This is the same thing for world first, some guilds invest literally their whole life for a given period of time to get the prize, when most people aren't ready to sacrifice their whole irl life and jobs just to be first, and probably even if they could, wouldn't understand the point, this screws the measure.

    This is a world first only in the sense that they are competing with guilds who have the same playtime available, and that's certainly not a whole lot, so yeah, grats to Method who got their world first in competition with what? 2, 3 other guilds?

    So what? A guild that plays 5 times less often than Method but still clear the content in only a couple of months? Fuck them? They actually spent a shitload less time in the raid than Method, but because Method were willing to sacrifice their IRL, they get the "best players" tag, when other guilds cleared the content with significantly less time invested?

    So, basically, for wow progress: time invested = skill ?

    So yeah, grats to Method for having invested 500+ hrs of play time in less than a couple of months, them and BL are probably the only guilds in the world who could be bothered to spend so much time in there.
    I just think this whole world first thing is so overblown: some guys spend their life in a raid so now they have to be acknowledged as the best? This is so wrong in so many ways I can't even be bothered to continue commenting.

    To me, the world first now has little more meaning than "these guys have litteraly no life" à la South Park, rather than "these guys are so ubber skilled"...
    Last edited by kouby; 2013-04-23 at 11:38 AM.

  10. #50
    So the x-realm Oondasta/Nalak worked now. But the Mogu Runes of Fate still need 90 lesser charms? Hmm.

  11. #51
    Sad how they dont make a fastest kill instead of first :P could be alot more competition and it would last longer than a few hours cause you could constantly fight for being the best.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaroc View Post
    Sad how they dont make a fastest kill instead of first :P could be alot more competition and it would last longer than a few hours cause you could constantly fight for being the best.
    I'm personally (and we've suggested it to Blizzard too!) looking forward to the patch where they will implement 'Challenge Raids'.
    It will require a lot more class balancing though - stacked raids will be requirements even more so than is today when aiming for that fastest time!

    I do still see it as two different things - both race to world first and 'challenge' raids will be something to keep people busy!

  13. #53
    Challenge Mode for raids would be awesome.
    I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn, they will be gone - whispering their hidden song...

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by kouby View Post
    This has got nothing to do with learning a skill as complicated as playing piano, this is wow, this is a video game, you can learn how to dps competitively with any class and any spec just by reading a forum, I'd like to see you learn to play piano by reading a forum post...

    So this is what it has come to? Skill is measured by time spent?

    You see, with your analogy, I'd think someone who learned piano in a few days is much more talented than some guy who had to spend months on end learning the same skill.

    This is the same thing for world first, some guilds invest literally their whole life for a given period of time to get the prize, when most people aren't ready to sacrifice their whole irl life and jobs just to be first, and probably even if they could, wouldn't understand the point, this screws the measure.

    This is a world first only in the sense that they are competing with guilds who have the same playtime available, and that's certainly not a whole lot, so yeah, grats to Method who got their world first in competition with what? 2, 3 other guilds?

    So what? A guild that plays 5 times less often than Method but still clear the content in only a couple of months? Fuck them? They actually spent a shitload less time in the raid than Method, but because Method were willing to sacrifice their IRL, they get the "best players" tag, when other guilds cleared the content with significantly less time invested?

    So, basically, for wow progress: time invested = skill ?

    So yeah, grats to Method for having invested 500+ hrs of play time in less than a couple of months, them and BL are probably the only guilds in the world who could be bothered to spend so much time in there.
    I just think this whole world first thing is so overblown: some guys spend their life in a raid so now they have to be acknowledged as the best? This is so wrong in so many ways I can't even be bothered to continue commenting.

    To me, the world first now has little more meaning than "these guys have litteraly no life" à la South Park, rather than "these guys are so ubber skilled"...

    Well, you don't have to like it, but obviously this massive amount of time investment leads to a kind of success, a very big part of the wow community is interested in. And yes, one can learn a certain amount of 'skill' by playing in one of the world-first competitive guilds. Maybe you are one of the exceptionally good players - I myself always thought the dps of the players in the top guilds were far out of my league, never figured out how they got these high numbers, and I also read a lot of theorycraft and elitistjerks etc. I have to admit - I was never raiding on the cutting edge.

    If you want to approve the, in your eyes, 'more talented' players, then you are free to do so. In the end however, it is always the piano player who has the greatest skill who is most successful and fills the great halls, no one will ask if he spent decades or only years to obtain that skill. The problem is, you have absolutely no idea, who is really the 'most talented' player. You can only assume, that they are in different guilds than the top ones, you can never be sure if that is true. Maybe the time you need to invest to down a certain boss increases exponentially with the progress speed for whatever reason (gear requirement or shear concentration issues)? Who knows?

    Maybe you can try and find an algorithm that takes into account your issues, like '(tries needed)*(time spent)' or 'killtime*(time spent)²', but there will always be a way to optimize your ranking value in a way that has little to do with 'talent'.

  15. #55
    Ra-den looks completely disappointing. It's not another Algalon.

  16. #56
    Dreadlord Art3x's Avatar
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    Still needing 90 lessers as of 7:45 cst

  17. #57
    Pandaren Monk ZeroWashu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kouby View Post

    So what? A guild that plays 5 times less often than Method but still clear the content in only a couple of months? Fuck them? They actually spent a shitload less time in the raid than Method, but because Method were willing to sacrifice their IRL, they get the "best players" tag, when other guilds cleared the content with significantly less time invested?
    Welcome to the world of MMOs. I don't where you have been, but its always been this way. Those who play the most get the most. They are first because they put forward the investment of time to get there. Playing devil's advocate, it could be claimed that these OTHER guilds you mention only are able to complete the same content because someone else figured it out and posted how.

    Your coming off so jealous its hilarious. Trying to paint Method in every bad light you can, got to love the SACRIFICE IRL. Really dude? If they have the time to do this its not a sacrifice. Maybe YOU would have to sacrifice to spend the time they play but apparently given their history of play this is normal every day fun. I know people who have taken vacation time to play games at launch, clear new raid content, and more. I don't, but I certainly won't find every little whiny excuse under the sun to claim that someone's accomplishment isn't what it is. Face it, they were FIRST.

    In any race your either first or your the loser.
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  18. #58
    Herald of the Titans The Illusive Man's Avatar
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    Raiding 14-16 hours a day during those progression weeks? I always knew that those "world first" guilds are crazy but I never thought that they were that crazy. How can you spend so much time a day sitting in-front of your computer and trying to down a boss? I would understand it if it was their full-time job but apparently they are doing it as their "hobby".

    BTW: You really can´t compare a professional Piano player or a professional athlete to a "world first" gamer because it is a different thing they try to achieve. You know an athlete spends a lot of hours to practice so that he can win championships, medals and other prices and a professional Piano player practices so that he can play in-front of a very big crowd and to write new songs. So tell me what does a "World first" gamer that plays 14 hours a day achieve with this? All they achieve is to be featured on a few gamer sites and maybe get a few fans. They don´t get medals or money a Piano player or athlete would (the best of them because those guys in these guilds claim to be the best too).

    So if you try to compare the best athletes to the best "raiders" then you see that all those top raiders do is spend their entire life in a game trying to down a boss for a bit of fame on a gaming site. They do not earn millions or world-wide fame with it like the best athletes do.

  19. #59
    It took Einstein hundreds of hours to come up with relativity theory and I learned it in 5 mins when I was 15 years old, obviously I'm smarter than Einstein was.

    I can learn to play a song in 5 times less time used, than it took a so called great guitarist to compose that song, obviously that great guitarist is crap. If I could be bothered to put 5 times more time in it, I would be among the best guitarists in the planet, right?

    Kouby, it's obvious you have never ever tried to kill a boss without having predefined tactics for it.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    It took Einstein hundreds of hours to come up with relativity theory and I learned it in 5 mins when I was 15 years old, obviously I'm smarter than Einstein was.

    I can learn to play a song in 5 times less time used, than it took a so called great guitarist to compose that song, obviously that great guitarist is crap. If I could be bothered to put 5 times more time in it, I would be among the best guitarists in the planet, right?

    Kouby, it's obvious you have never ever tried to kill a boss without having predefined tactics for it.
    Like I said. This is only comparable if every guild has to develope their own tactic from scratch and we count the tries. Then we will see if a world top 100 guild is better than a world top 5 guild and the world top 5 is only top because of time investment.
    I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn, they will be gone - whispering their hidden song...

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