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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    E-sports was advertised and not delivered in the slightest.
    You do realize that even if a developer could deliver on a 100% perfectly balanced and incredible suite of features for PVP... that a developer can not create an E-Sport. Nor advertise as an E-sport.

    Because of none of that guarantees professional, competitive, widely played, popular to watch gameplay across a number of tournaments, events or structured league apart from the game.

    E-sports isn't a bullet point on the back of the box.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-04-24 at 05:52 AM.

  2. #42
    Well there's a lot of things which a-net could (and should) have done to atleast help the cause.

    1. organise tournaments themselves (like in GW)

    2. offer a way of private "duels" (like in GW through for instance guild hall)

    3. have a spectator mode

    4. give PvPers a reason to take it seriously (mainly a congregation of 1.2.3.)

    5. notice and do something about clearly imbalanced specs (I'm looking at you d/d ele with your "nerfs")

    6. make spectating intresting. ATM watching ppl PvP just isn't entertaining no matter how skilled they are since 1. bunkers dominate and "healing" is quite boring to watch (check WoW youtube vids there's a reason why 80% of them isn't from a healer POV) 2. There's a lot of downtown between action (domination/conquest means travel time) 3. It is impossible for "untrained" people to actually see wtf is going on due to all the animations, compare that to "real" e-sports MK, COD, Tekken, SC2,... where it's fairly obvious what's happening even if you don't play the games. (this was one of the major issues in GW as well though, ppl not formiliar with infusing* wouldn't be able to spot spikes etc...) (I can list more but I think you get that making a game interesting to watch isn't all that hard)

    (check youtube, gw2 tPvP, I bet 90% of the vids you'll see will be triple bunker (at least))

    7. a custumisable UI would be nice, I think it's retarded how the UI is layed out (for players but especially for viewers)

    Party frames are top left. Health/endurance is bottom center. Skills are bottom left/right center. Prof skills are bottom left center. (De)Buffs are bottom right center. Kill feed is mid right. Map is bottom/top right (custumisable woopie). Score board is top center. Target bar top center. Target (de)buff bar is top center. Chat box is bottom left corner.

    And the "tells" are "in the middle of your screen" it's just retarded how you have to look frigin everywhere as a viewer to find out basic stuff. Add to this that party dots on the minimap should have prof colours since now you don't have a frigin clue who's where. Also for viewers distinguishable armor! If you have an ele a nec and a mes who are all "clones" a viewer won't immediatly spot who actually is what, this can be very confusing and I really don't get how a-net overlooked this...


    8. Don't make pugs play vs premade teams, this greatly scews all ratings/ranks/skill requirements and so forth.

    In short you can not 100% guarantee that a game will be an e-sport HOWEVER, making sure the basics are present is a must. A-net horribly failed at that part and that's why "the pvp-community" is angry/annoyed/trying to untwist panties/...

    *infusing comes from the skill Infuse Health, which was used to burst heal people when they got burst dmg (aka spiked)
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-04-24 at 06:19 AM.

  3. #43
    mmos as an esport is laughable really

    they should have never made that declaration

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    mmos as an esport is laughable really

    they should have never made that declaration
    If you played GW at it's prime you'd know that mmos can be e-sports IF devs put in the effort (a big if, I know).

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    If you played GW at it's prime you'd know that mmos can be e-sports IF devs put in the effort (a big if, I know).
    I played it since it released. And it was laughable then as an esport.

    I'm sorry, mmos just don't make for good viewing.

  6. #46
    Are you formiliar with the first time some guild did "the napoleon" on Druid Isle?
    One guild was hanging on with no hard-rez left and average 40%DP vs 10%MB guild, with VOD coming soon and their base cleared of NPC's. The vine bridges were up (ofcourse) and since the losing team was fighting near their chokehold (defensive position since they were struggling and couldn't get flag control) they made a wild dash sending 3 people (a war, ele and ranger if I recall correctly but it's been a while) to the lord while the 5remaining players bodyblocked the bridge so the healers of the other team got gandalfed (couldn't pass) and thus had to run the long way around to try and save the Lord. They failed and this epic showing of determination and skill was widely celebrated (and later adopted by others), that was frigin entertaining.

    I also watch chess matches though so, I'm aware things I find entertaining can be looked at as boring by others

  7. #47
    Here is the thing though. They are interesting to you (and to me at times) because we are interested in the game itself. For everyone else it isn't very interesting. The issue with mmos is that there is too much going on. You have to strike a balance between simple and complex to make it a watchable entity. Even the most played mmo ever made could not make an esport scene work (although I don't think their game is setup for it). I actually think GW2 has a good base, if any mmo does, for a watchable game. But things such as the playing field, the effects, and perhaps some lack of excitement hamper it.

    I'm just talking about the actual watch-ability of the game in an competitive setting. I'll let you deal with the more details of it.

    Games such as League of Legends are much more conducive as esports due to relative simplicity of it but can actually grow more complex in the tactics used.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKing View Post
    People play spvp all the time, but it's very casual and mostly they are in there for the daily/monthly. At least that's what me and some guildies were doing last week for a few nights. Didn't have any problems with finding opponents and many of our match ups had different people so it wasn't us fighting the exact same groups over and over again.
    Idk...I never had to wait more than 10mins for a Tpvp match, usually goes in 2 to 4mins any hour of the day pretty much (I'm an owl kinda of.) Plus if you look at the browser you can have an estimate of how many players are playing, I would go right now there and count but not sure if I would make a point.

    With all that said: The number of pvpers on this game while never hard to find appears to be somewhat low (Can only talk about NA servers). I've been trying to find a guild for pvp (read: spvp) but it has been impossible. Most of them say "We WvW and sometimes Spvp". I'm about to create one lol, PvP Care Bear. We teach and improve ! XD. Anyways. Just my view for those who are debating on the "how many?" XD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    You do realize that even if a developer could deliver on a 100% perfectly balanced and incredible suite of features for PVP... that a developer can not create an E-Sport. Nor advertise as an E-sport.

    Because of none of that guarantees professional, competitive, widely played, popular to watch gameplay across a number of tournaments, events or structured league apart from the game.

    E-sports isn't a bullet point on the back of the box.
    True. But regardless of how he put it. IT is a fact that they did advertise (alot? Can't really tell right now) that they wanted to push the game (again, "push hard") for e-sports. While he and no one else can complain how he did, I think he means that they are not pushing anything. Be it towards e-sports or just to keep the game going...anywhere XD.

    Edit: I should honestly stop typing my post, afk, write a bit more, watch a show, afk, etc. XD IT really delays my answers and once again Mele "beat me" to it :O xD
    Last edited by Zilong; 2013-04-24 at 06:45 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Games such as League of Legends are much more conducive as esports due to relative simplicity of it but can actually grow more complex in the tactics used.
    This is actually why I think/feel GW is/was a better fit for an e-sport.

    1. The crux is simple kill the lord=win => simple to understand.
    2. Multiple points of interest (flag stand, back door, front (rarely but somtimes used) and ofcourse the hall itself) => entertaining
    3. Easy to see what's happening, Healthbar indicators for conditions/hexes (faded red/pink instead of bright red) => you don't have to understand everything, other colour = bad
    4. It's easy to explain roles. 1FC 2healers 5dps.
    5. systematic rez for the entire game (every 2min you get rezed if your dp isn't 60%) as opposed to individual rez timers.

    To be honest I think (although I'm obviously biased) that if you take an e-sport fan who's never seen GW or GW2 he'd find it easier (and thus more fun) to watch GW since you can "look at healthbars" which is easier to understand than looking for dangerous animations and why that thief just did an epic pro dodge on churning earth.

    I personally can't break down GW2 as easily.

    1. First to 500points wins
    2. You get 5points per kill and 1p/s per capture point (there are exceptions)
    3. There are other important areas like the treb/orb/npcs
    4. erm there's burst, bunkers and roamers but you can also combine all of those in for instance a d/d ele
    5. If you die you get a 15s delay til when you rez?
    6. You have to look all over the place to find "useful" info, where is everyone? Who needs help? and so on (as I've mentioned before)
    7. weapon swapping

    I think the main issue is that GW2 simply is too complex at it's core since a watcher doesn't really know why neutralising can be a better strategy than neutr+cap, or why you ignore the lord even though he grants 150 points or heck, why a bunker beats a roamer...

    I think that I can explain any GW GvG match enough so that any random person can then google gw gvg, watch a clip and "understand" what happened; I fear this isn't the case with GW2

  10. #50
    it's funny how Anet are adding features people wanted and yet they still complain, amusing indeed.

    On-Topic: i am happy they are putting in Custom Arenas and Spectator mode, they are very key to improving tPvP and much welcomed and appreciated by many. there are some other areas that also need improving to make the whole experience better for the players and they are:

    they still need to separate the Solo and Team queues because i love to just solo q when i don't have a group, but end up rolling against people with ranking 1-50 when i fluctuate between 125 and 500 solo-q-ing. when they separate the solo/team qs and rating they will also need to reset the ratings to get a more true representation of MMR for the different q types.

    the other thing Anet still needs to work on is profession balance. Necros are the only profession without invulnerability and stability (Foot in the Grave does not count as 1) it's a trait and 2) requires 30 pts. and 3) only last for the first 3 seconds of entering DS), in fact most professions have access to both stability AND invulnerability as utilities or profession specific skills and do not have to waste an elite for them, but if they do get either stability/invulnerability from an elite they do not give up the option to heal and use main skills and utilities. not having a way to protect a stomp as a Necro is highly frustrating.

    they also need to implement Boon Hate and NOT just for Thieves and Warriors but for every professions melee weapons that actually do DD. boon hate has the potential to curb certain boon heavy bunkers but it is just part of hopefully an all encompassing solution to promote build diversity and meaningful sacrifices being made when players formulate their builds.

    they need to also change the traits so that, for example, DD Eles have to make an actual sacrifice ala Thieves. people complain about Thief damage output but i do not mind it at all because i know they have made sacrifices to get to do that and most importantly have a COUNTER. there also need to be more interesting and competitively viable build for the professions i say start small, say 3-5 per profession and then increase them from there.

    and the last thing they need to fix would be condition scaling and caps. burning needs to be nerfed and in doing so it will fix many issues with Engies, Eles, Rangers and Guardians, Warriors who can be both tanky and do high amounts of condi damage and physical damage too, with the BEST condi in the game. burning does the most damage, may scale poorly with condition damage but due to the bleed cap will never be reached in damage output. i think there is a chart out there somewhere, maybe on Buildcast where they show how the condis scale relative to each other. a fix for the bleed cap could be allowing old bleeds remaining damage taken as instant damage when a new bleed is applied after the bleed cap is reached.
    Cherish the quiet...before my STORM!!!

    Guild Wars 2: Odeezee (Necromancer) || TERA: Odeezee (Archer-Ret) || SWTOR: Odeezee (Sith Inquisitor-Ret/Jedi Sage-Ret) || GW: Odeezee Fosho (Elementalist-Ret)
    Aion: Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret), ODZ (Spirit Master-Ret) || War
    : Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret) || AoC: Odeezee (Demonologist-Ret) || WoW: Odeezee (Druid-Ret), Thaone (Mage-Ret)

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    it's funny how Anet are adding features people wanted and yet they still complain, amusing indeed.
    I'm sorry but adding features that are "wanted" is wrong, you'd be more correct by saying "needed". Add to this the points you shortly address (mmr is useless, skills/profs aren't balanced,...)

    These "features" will be out roughly 9months after people asking for them, by now I fear the e-sport/serious competitive boat has sailed.

    Other reasons why people still complain is simply because this won't change anything about how f* up PvP is, they're nice features sure sort of like seats in a car, but I'd much rather have a properly working engine to go along with it...

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I'm sorry but adding features that are "wanted" is wrong, you'd be more correct by saying "needed". Add to this the points you shortly address (mmr is useless, skills/profs aren't balanced,...)

    These "features" will be out roughly 9months after people asking for them, by now I fear the e-sport/serious competitive boat has sailed.

    Other reasons why people still complain is simply because this won't change anything about how f* up PvP is, they're nice features sure sort of like seats in a car, but I'd much rather have a properly working engine to go along with it...
    ..... /sigh
    Please add actual content to posts. Things like this are treated as spam. --Kel
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2013-04-24 at 09:59 AM.
    Cherish the quiet...before my STORM!!!

    Guild Wars 2: Odeezee (Necromancer) || TERA: Odeezee (Archer-Ret) || SWTOR: Odeezee (Sith Inquisitor-Ret/Jedi Sage-Ret) || GW: Odeezee Fosho (Elementalist-Ret)
    Aion: Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret), ODZ (Spirit Master-Ret) || War
    : Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret) || AoC: Odeezee (Demonologist-Ret) || WoW: Odeezee (Druid-Ret), Thaone (Mage-Ret)

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I'm sorry but adding features that are "wanted" is wrong, you'd be more correct by saying "needed". Add to this the points you shortly address (mmr is useless, skills/profs aren't balanced,...)

    These "features" will be out roughly 9months after people asking for them, by now I fear the e-sport/serious competitive boat has sailed.

    Other reasons why people still complain is simply because this won't change anything about how f* up PvP is, they're nice features sure sort of like seats in a car, but I'd much rather have a properly working engine to go along with it...
    Some things take time to implement. Theres alot of work that goes into this stuff. Also why its being beta tested by the community.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Some things take time to implement. Theres alot of work that goes into this stuff. Also why its being beta tested by the community.
    I know but that means
    a) a-net shouldn't have advertised it as an e-sport from the get go (no infrastructure)
    b) the game (or at least pvp) was released too early
    c) beta tested by 100players out of what 3.5mil? (0.00003% of the population rounded up)
    d) how can things this crucial be "overlooked"?*

    *it means their resources have been spent on other projects while they possibly/probably could've used them in the PvP team...

  15. #55


    This looks really cool, having a banner with your guild emblem on the back.

    The sad part is that I play a Guardian, and my main weapons are sword & shield. Shield with any back item is bugged.



    Shield users know what I mean.
    Last edited by Klavier Gavin; 2013-04-24 at 11:32 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I know but that means
    a) a-net shouldn't have advertised it as an e-sport from the get go (no infrastructure)
    b) the game (or at least pvp) was released too early
    c) beta tested by 100players out of what 3.5mil? (0.00003% of the population rounded up)
    d) how can things this crucial be "overlooked"?*

    *it means their resources have been spent on other projects while they possibly/probably could've used them in the PvP team...
    One thing you should have known from playing MMO's. They are not single player games and should not be treated as the 100% finished game. They are a Work In Progress. Things they Advertise dont have to be in Day 1. Esports was their vision for pvp. Yea it may not have come to fruition as fast as competitive players or even Anet would have liked. But they are still putting in the systems to set up Esports.

    @beta tested by 100 players out of 3.5 mil

    Ok first of all 3.5 mil players are not playing the game currently. So you cant even make the argument 3.5 mil players are Spvping. So your population % is totally off. Anyway the only thing that those 100 players can do is form their own custom arena. They way i understood it spectator mode is available to all players. Dont know what is so great about being able to test custom arenas as it has nothing to do with E sports and mostly to do with confined practicing.

    Its your opinion on how these things you view as crucial being overlooked. I have no problem with select players aka the people who could benefit most from the CA being given access. Since they are your top PvPers of the community might as well get feed back from players who are going to be using it the most and not ppl that barely Spvp as it is. As to the game being released too early? Nah, not buying it. As i said MMO's are a Work in Progress. A game getting released to early would be extremely buggy, laggy, non optimized, Quests dont work (which was the case but gotta remember their beta test didnt let you go through higher level zones to break event chains). As to PvP it was straight forward. Its basically its own game. It is finished. Adding maps and features is all they need to do to keep it going. And thats what they are doing, adding features to help try and build it into an esport.

    Time is money friend.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    snip
    WIP is BS and unacceptable regardless of it being a single -or multi-player game. If key order winners aren't implemented you're being deceitful and lying.

    Especially since the 5years of "when it's done" spouting...

    Also, afaik GW actually didn't have this "yea so erm we need another year to erm "finish" the last part of the game." By this time (8months after release) GW's PvP meta had settled down and was considered the most balanced it ever was throughout the game. Compare that to GW2, do you feel like the game's meta is close to settling down? Is the game feeling like it's balanced? Are there actually meaningful leaderboards?

    I'm sick and tired of people saying "it's normal products need work after release" NO IT ISN'T. Just like it isn't "normal" that cars have to be sent back to the factory due to a manufacturing error in the breaks... If something isn't working (properly) you don't release it PERIOD (a . doesn't make the actual point clear ). I seriously can't fathom how people are OK with this "we'll patch it in later" attitude. It's one of the reasons why I stopped playing skyrim (a single player game) and also why I'm anoyed with GW2's PvP.

    Since you actually touched on it. There were bugs fcking everywhere! It took 2months for a vista or POI to get fixed in kessex hills, yea "high level"...

    And no just adding maps and features isn't what they need to do at all. They need to fix ranger, necros, engineers and warriors so they are competitive. Get a frigin MMR system that works (seriously is it that much to ask? copy paste an ELO code and you're done...) balance bunkers, portals and vertical movement skills (treb shortcut is one of the most important ones...).

    Sorry but your post pissed me off. You're acting like this is normal and it isn't, this is horrible service and shouldn't be tolerated. It doesn't matter if it's EA, A-net/NCsoft, Bliz or w/e other frigin company out there: you can not promise "features" and then need 3/4ths of a year to implement them...

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    mmos as an esport is laughable really

    they should have never made that declaration
    I dunno about that really.

    Any thing can potentially be an e-sport. E-sport just need to be competitive [they don't have to be PVP necessarily either!], played on a major level and able to sustain professional play.

    For example, it is someone's JOB to play Starcraft, DOTA or League. They make their living off the sport(s).

    That's an e-sport.

    Not a hobby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilong View Post
    True. But regardless of how he put it. IT is a fact that they did advertise (alot? Can't really tell right now) that they wanted to push the game (again, "push hard") for e-sports. xD
    Right. But they also wanted to push hard that they were making the best game in the world.

    Have to be a smart consumer, bros.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    WIP is BS and unacceptable regardless of it being a single -or multi-player game. If key order winners aren't implemented you're being deceitful and lying.

    Especially since the 5years of "when it's done" spouting...

    Also, afaik GW actually didn't have this "yea so erm we need another year to erm "finish" the last part of the game." By this time (8months after release) GW's PvP meta had settled down and was considered the most balanced it ever was throughout the game. Compare that to GW2, do you feel like the game's meta is close to settling down? Is the game feeling like it's balanced? Are there actually meaningful leaderboards?

    I'm sick and tired of people saying "it's normal products need work after release" NO IT ISN'T. Just like it isn't "normal" that cars have to be sent back to the factory due to a manufacturing error in the breaks... If something isn't working (properly) you don't release it PERIOD (a . doesn't make the actual point clear ). I seriously can't fathom how people are OK with this "we'll patch it in later" attitude. It's one of the reasons why I stopped playing skyrim (a single player game) and also why I'm anoyed with GW2's PvP.

    Since you actually touched on it. There were bugs fcking everywhere! It took 2months for a vista or POI to get fixed in kessex hills, yea "high level"...

    And no just adding maps and features isn't what they need to do at all. They need to fix ranger, necros, engineers and warriors so they are competitive. Get a frigin MMR system that works (seriously is it that much to ask? copy paste an ELO code and you're done...) balance bunkers, portals and vertical movement skills (treb shortcut is one of the most important ones...).

    Sorry but your post pissed me off. You're acting like this is normal and it isn't, this is horrible service and shouldn't be tolerated. It doesn't matter if it's EA, A-net/NCsoft, Bliz or w/e other frigin company out there: you can not promise "features" and then need 3/4ths of a year to implement them...
    How is it NOT normal that MMO's need work after release? I'm pretty sure a majority of MMOs had key features that needed to be worked on after they released. This being the case, that does in fact make it 'normal'. Really, if anything, this is becoming MORE the norm in today's gaming industry with single player games now having this issue such as Skyrim and Diablo 3. You could possibly make the argument that the trend of DLC also adds to the issue of unfinished games becoming the norm, but I know that is a more debatable issue. Not saying it's a good thing, but the fact that it is indeed the norm.

  20. #60
    I'll explain a bit: it is normal that an MMO needs work even after release, however this should be "minor" things such as skill balance, lag issues, clipping,.... that sort of thing not one of the key "promotions" of the game...

    I agree it's becoming the norm, but my problem is that we (the customers) are letting them (devs) get away with it which I find horrible and beyond comprehension. You wouldn't be ok if your car came without windshield wipers and blinkers would you? Ye they're not the breaks or the motor but they are god damn needed and saying "we'll mail them to you" isn't "fixing" this and it's horrible way to treat customers.

    That's why I'm pissed off at the post, I get that MMO's need continues work/maintenance to stay fresh and what not but that's like adding one of those smelly trees or a new sound system or something to your car and not windshield wipers or blinkers or fenders and IMO in GW2 we're actually missing breaks! (but I'm biased so blinkers is probably a bit more reasonable)

    I don't "get" how consumers can find this OK...

    Also key features can be several things, the problem is that key features should frigin be in the game (I can understand leaderboards or something having a temp lay-out or w/e, but at least have them in the game...) and working. You can't call your pvp "structured" when people can join as teams vs pugs, mmr doesn't work, teams aren't balanced and so on and so forth and the main problem is that all that stuff counts for tPvP as well...

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