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  1. #81
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    This has nothing at all to do with this thread.
    it does actually, when considering people are now moaning about alliance lore in general, to the point it doesn't matter what blizzard writes alliance always act like there unappreciated.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    it does actually, when considering people are now moaning about alliance lore in general, to the point it doesn't matter what blizzard writes alliance always act like there unappreciated.
    So you just came in here to bitch about people bitching about lore without actually reading the thread?

  3. #83
    The problem is that the non-humans in the alliance have been reduced to "funny looking humans". The process goes something like this.

    Starting back in WC1, the Alliance is the "Good Guys" reacting to the "Bad Guys" attacking them.
    Because the Alliance must Stand Together or Hang Separately any internal conflicts are glossed over in the name of survival against the Big Threat.
    Internal conflicts (drama) glossed over are conflicts forgotten. Good guys get along, after all.
    Because everyone gets along, no one stands out from each other. No one stands up and says "Screw you guys, I'm doing my own thing!"
    This results in a lot sameness happening, since the Alliance gets developed in broad strokes with Humans as the poster boys.
    End result is it's an alliance between the humans, the tall purple humans, the short humans, the really short humans, the blue humans with horns, and the furry humans.

    This cycle could get broken is the Alliance could get out of the Good Guys pigeon hole they are currently stuck in. However, given that anything that might do that gets brushed aside or forgotten and never mentioned again (thus, no consequences) I don't have a lot of hope.

    Garrosh's acts had consequences, big fat negative consequences. This lead to the Horde getting lots of development as the fallout is dealt with. The handful of things the Alliance have done (some were mentioned in the recent Q&A) happen, then *POOF* are never brought up by any NPCs in game. No consequences means no development.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    The problem is that the non-humans in the alliance have been reduced to "funny looking humans". The process goes something like this.

    Starting back in WC1, the Alliance is the "Good Guys" reacting to the "Bad Guys" attacking them.
    Because the Alliance must Stand Together or Hang Separately any internal conflicts are glossed over in the name of survival against the Big Threat.
    Internal conflicts (drama) glossed over are conflicts forgotten. Good guys get along, after all.
    Because everyone gets along, no one stands out from each other. No one stands up and says "Screw you guys, I'm doing my own thing!"
    This results in a lot sameness happening, since the Alliance gets developed in broad strokes with Humans as the poster boys.
    End result is it's an alliance between the humans, the tall purple humans, the short humans, the really short humans, the blue humans with horns, and the furry humans.

    This cycle could get broken is the Alliance could get out of the Good Guys pigeon hole they are currently stuck in. However, given that anything that might do that gets brushed aside or forgotten and never mentioned again (thus, no consequences) I don't have a lot of hope.

    Garrosh's acts had consequences, big fat negative consequences. This lead to the Horde getting lots of development as the fallout is dealt with. The handful of things the Alliance have done (some were mentioned in the recent Q&A) happen, then *POOF* are never brought up by any NPCs in game. No consequences means no development.
    The alliance had quite a bit of internal conflict in the 2nd war with Altreac betraying the alliance, Gilneas and Silvermoon bailing as soon as the war was over. Lordaeron was left on it's own to fight the scourge.

    The alliance has had internal conflict in the past, just Blizzard is shoving the unity thing on the alliance. If human kingdoms can't get along with eachother then how can night elves, humans, worgen, draenei, dwarves, and gnomes all get along perfectly together?

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    The alliance had quite a bit of internal conflict in the 2nd war with Altreac betraying the alliance, Gilneas and Silvermoon bailing as soon as the war was over. Lordaeron was left on it's own to fight the scourge.
    The problem is that the moment Alterac turned on the Alliance, they were annihilated in IIRC a single mission. The Alliance then moved on as if nothing had really happened. No consequence.

    Gilneas went it's own way, then became invisible. When Cata rolled around, they were brought back into the fold like nothing had happened. No consequence.

    Silvermoon did bail on them. There was some back stabbing and a lot of suffering. Then they... joined the Horde! And if game mechanics didn't stop them, would have told Garrosh to stick it in his ear. And yet, the Alliance still has a bunch of High Elves running around. Other than not being a playable race, no real consequences.

    The alliance has had internal conflict in the past, just Blizzard is shoving the unity thing on the alliance. If human kingdoms can't get along with eachother then how can night elves, humans, worgen, draenei, dwarves, and gnomes all get along perfectly together?
    The problem is that they shouldn't be getting along like they do. I wasn't saying the current situation is a good thing, it's a consequence of writers getting trapped in a bad way of thinking.

    By being made of default "good guys" the Alliance was almost tailor made to fall into the "one big happy family" trap. It's hard to make internal drama from this position.

    The Horde, by contrast, is made of traditionally "evil" races (Orcs, undead, minotaurs, trolls) which makes it much, much easier for a writer to have one faction tell the others to screw themselves in the name of their own self interest. Natural internal conflict (thus drama) generators.

    Edit: I know that both the Horde and the Alliance are not the same ones from the early games. They are thematically continuous, however.

  6. #86
    Dreadlord KenjiEvans's Avatar
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    -Tyrande- Used as a support character for varian in a scenario in MoP, being completely out of character. Didn't do much else.
    What do you mean by out of character?
    Did you even play Warcraft 3, cause to me it looks like you didn't
    That reckless, hotheaded, and impatient personality is how she actually is. That nice "oh please don't hurt them" attitude, that is what is out of character for her.

  7. #87
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    malfurion is chilling with the druids, jarod is chilling with the wardens, shandris is dreaming about jarod and broll is also blowing varian.

    the ancient protectors are just trees, not leaders.
    Jarod left Shandris for another lady, so I doubt she's still dreaming about him after he cheated on her so to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    You know the Alliance was formed between Lordaeron and Stormwind, then brought in the fold, the Dwarves and Gnomes. So the original intention of the "Alliance" was human cooperation. The other races are along for the ride. So I think you put too much into it.
    The original Alliance is dead. The original Alliance was lead by Lordaeron first and foremost. Lordaeron is gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Operation: Gnomeregan was the greatest moment in Warcraft history, thank you very much.
    How come? I remember they failed in their goal and right now they're sitting outside and at the entrance. It's like you took my house, I attacked and managed to reclaim the door mat and the entry hallway where you put your shoes. Yea, a true victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by KenjiNitari View Post
    What do you mean by out of character?
    Did you even play Warcraft 3, cause to me it looks like you didn't
    That reckless, hotheaded, and impatient personality is how she actually is. That nice "oh please don't hurt them" attitude, that is what is out of character for her.
    Quoting myself:

    There's a difference between ferocity and being a brute. Here's an example:
    -Garrosh is a brute when he attacks the dragons in Twilight Highlands thinking he can win. He's a brute because he attacks without making a plan, without caring what would happen to the rest of the fleet, without knowing if he can even win.
    -trolls are ferocious when retaking their islands back. They go there and charge inspiring fear in their enemies yet, they have a plan, they had supplies, they know what would happen with the ones behind, they have it covered.

    Now let's look at Tyrande in Warcraft 3:
    -she goes and attacks a small human/orc camp at first. She has enough troops, she takes them by surprise, she knows she can win.
    -in her race to awaken the druids, she studies the forces around, but she knows how she can sneak enough forces around to awaken them by laying some traps too and she doesn't go to bang her head in all forces at once (I remember after awakening Malfurion there's a map where the orcs, humans and undead are fighting, and she uses the opportunity to get through instead of fighting)
    -she will take good cards to prepare for future battles (Illidan)
    -she's aggressive in speech, but is willing to take reason (when she meets with Jaina, Thrall and Medivh, though she has a line before, she doesn't shoot either, remember Tyrande is an archer, she could have shot all of them from afar if she was truly a brute, but she didn't, she waited to see their intentions).
    -in the Frozen Throne she can know when something is wrong and maybe it's not the best time to attack, if you remember when Maiev calls for Malfurion and she comes too, when they debark she says she's not sure about this, going forward or something, can't remember the speech, and only when Malfurion tells her about mountain giants does she actually understand, meaning she wasn't going to try and storm in without at least enough troops, like a brute.
    -she then saves the blood elves, also saving her own troops, this shows that she would protect her own with her life where she can

    Now the WoW MoP Tyrande:
    -knows it's an orc trap, wants to storm in
    -knows it's a sacred temple, wants to defile it with battle
    -knows many of her would die with such an approach, doesn't care
    -knows how to use traps, doesn't use them, lets Varian teach her how to use traps
    -knows her people are mostly ranged fighters, wants to storm in in melee

    Are you sure it's same Tyrande? I'm not. the MoP Tyrande is a mindless brute while the Warcraft Tyrande is a ferocious leader.

  8. #88
    The original Alliance is dead. The original Alliance was lead by Lordaeron first and foremost. Lordaeron is gone.
    Right, the only remaining members are SW, IF, and Gnomeregan. Everyone else is either new, or left the old alliance and later joined the new one. The alliance was essentially dead by WC3 leaving Lordaeron to fend for itself against the scourge. Clinging to the alliance of Lordaeron is a bit silly.

  9. #89
    It's the same organization. Sure Lordaeron fell, but the Alliance was never dissolved, and while Teranas had a central leadership role of sorts he was never a supreme leader of the Alliance like a Warchief, he just had a lot of political sway. When Lordaeron fell Stormwind, Ironforge and Gnomeregan, which never left the Alliance, continued the organization forward.

  10. #90
    The Patient Valkari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    The night elves were the main leaders for the assault on Archimonde in Hyjal.
    Perfect example, as in the caverns of time version you're mostly hanging out with Jaina, then Thrall for a bit (with Jaina popping in to teleport them away, as well). You then see night elves and Tyrande, apparently just standing around, grab an item from her and go fight Archimonde (while they continue to stand around and do nothing).

    So it basically became humans and orcs, with a vague mention that NE were there too.

  11. #91
    Are you sure it's same Tyrande? I'm not. the MoP Tyrande is a mindless brute while the Warcraft Tyrande is a ferocious leader.
    Maye sha is in her mind?

    Seriously blizzard should give new heroes to both factions, for example "High Warlord Cromush" (preety well know he'll be boss in soo).

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkari View Post
    Perfect example, as in the caverns of time version you're mostly hanging out with Jaina, then Thrall for a bit (with Jaina popping in to teleport them away, as well). You then see night elves and Tyrande, apparently just standing around, grab an item from her and go fight Archimonde (while they continue to stand around and do nothing).

    So it basically became humans and orcs, with a vague mention that NE were there too.
    You want them to put even more trash in Hyjal?

  13. #93
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    It's the same organization. Sure Lordaeron fell, but the Alliance was never dissolved, and while Teranas had a central leadership role of sorts he was never a supreme leader of the Alliance like a Warchief, he just had a lot of political sway. When Lordaeron fell Stormwind, Ironforge and Gnomeregan, which never left the Alliance, continued the organization forward.
    We're still talking about two different Alliances here. They had different members at different times in history. The Night Elves were never allied with Lordaeron, neither were the Draenei or the Tushui Pandaren.

    And the old Alliance had a very straight forward goal. Unite the human kingdoms and fight back the invading orcs. It was formed for that purpose. The Alliance in WoW was not.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2013-04-26 at 10:51 PM.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    We're still talking about two different Alliances here. They had different members at different times in history. The Night Elves were never allied with Lordaeron, neither were the Draenei or the Tushui Pandaren.
    Yeah, there's differences to be sure between the alliance then and now, but I'll stand by the point that it's not a seperate political entity. The Alliance did not die with Lordaeron so they had to make a new one. Terneas was infuential and central to its leadership at that time but the death of a leader does not mean the organization is defunct.

  15. #95
    My goodness, nothing seems to please the alliance, ever!

    Here you have an expansion where the one of the oldest characters (Jaina) comes out and gets developed, Varian (who everyone was wondering who the hell he was back in Wrath) also getting some love, alliance starts crying "What about other races?". You even going get to raid Orgrimmar (and I'm not talking about the ol' For The alliance), but actual raid. Damn, allow us hordies to invade Stormwind and I would praise Blizzard as my new God!

    You guys forgot Mount Hyjal, return of Cenarius? Or perhapns Molten Front and new appearance of Malfurion? Oh right, alliance called him the true leader and Tyrande for his "eye candy". Blizzard even made an instance after a novel "Well of eternity". But I guess everyone were so focused on "Why is tyrande on high-heels".

    And since when did Blizzard EVER focused on the taurens? Most of the races had some focus on either expansion, tier or minor patch.
    The forsaken and Sylvanas turns up in two places, (both low level quest zones) Silverpine forest and Western plaguelands, and you guys think that was too much focus?

    Good lord, next time blizzard has their focus on Draeneis, I promise you all, alliance will start raging again "Not them again, they had TBC" blablabla.

    Instead of always wanting the way YOU want it (guess some calls it greed, but nvm), why not just enjoy the ride and see where the lore takes us?

  16. #96
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Yeah, there's differences to be sure between the alliance then and now, but I'll stand by the point that it's not a seperate political entity. The Alliance did not die with Lordaeron so they had to make a new one. Terneas was infuential and central to its leadership at that time but the death of a leader does not mean the organization is defunct.
    What is the difference though? It has different leaders, different members (partly) and a different goal. You can say that it evolved from the old Alliance, but at least in a metaphorical sense the old Alliance is dead.

  17. #97
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Yeah, there's differences to be sure between the alliance then and now, but I'll stand by the point that it's not a seperate political entity. The Alliance did not die with Lordaeron so they had to make a new one. Terneas was infuential and central to its leadership at that time but the death of a leader does not mean the organization is defunct.
    Even then, it changed. Humans no longer remained the only leaders, and we shouldn't return to that I think. It's my opinion of course.

  18. #98
    IT WILL ALWAYS BE HUMIES AN DA ORKZ!

    No seriously, they're the driving forces of the world. The rest of the races are more petty and less ambitious. So it would only make sense these two races dominate the scene.

    AND this is coming from someone that has read like all the novels. So no, I am not going by just what the game thus far portrays.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    What other way would you like to show primitive, nature-loving elves that were isolated for ten thousand years?
    "These women fight with unmatched savagery! I've never seen their equal. They are... perfect warriors."
    —Grom Hellscream

    Maybe like that?
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    "These women fight with unmatched savagery! I've never seen their equal. They are... perfect warriors."
    —Grom Hellscream

    Maybe like that?
    But he also saw them as inferior(and as most orcs) to humans. I know that doesn't make sense considering the above quote but orcs always preferred their old adversary--one that was never truly beaten where all others faltered against them.
    Last edited by Kitterfly; 2013-04-26 at 11:11 PM.

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