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  1. #101
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitterfly View Post
    But he also saw them as inferior(and as most orcs) to humans. I know that doesn't make sense considering the above quote but Orcs always preferred their old adversary--one that could never really truly be beaten where all others falter against them.

    Especially Varian, the chosen of Lo'Gosh.
    Describing someone as perfect warriors to me doesn't sound like he thought them inferior.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Describing someone as perfect warriors to me doesn't sound like he thought them inferior.
    They have to be, sorry to say. The quote is a bit silly in of itself and shouldn't be taken as an absolute considering all other forms of context.

    I think this is Blizzard trying to appease the ravenous Nelf fans a bit too much quite frankly.

    Granted, he could be referring to pure physical ability--not necessarily the entire sum of what makes one dangerous. Such as tactical understanding and adaptability.

  3. #103
    They didn't forget, they deliberately chose not to use humans. I'm shocked non-Orc races are getting much playtime, but I suppose that makes it easier to depose Garrosh.

    As much as they love orcs and humans and hate everyone else, we should count ourselves lucky we don't all start in Elwynn Forest and the Valley of Trials >.>

  4. #104
    Different goals? They work together for their mutual survival and benefit. Sure, the demon driven horde that brought the Alliance together isn't there anymore, but there are still other threats to join together against such as the Legion, not to mention continued hostilities with the Horde. I don't see their ideals as having really shifted either, especially not in a dramatic enough way to say it's a 'new' organization. The Alliance has evolved, yes, lost members and gained new ones, but I'd hardly say that it's shifted enough to call it a 'new' alliance and I'm not presently aware of any lore except maybe some non canonical rpg book stuff that calls it a new alliance. (Though if there is some out there please share it with me.)

  5. #105
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitterfly View Post
    They have to be, sorry to say. The quote is a bit silly in of itself and shouldn't be taken as an absolute considering all other forms of context.

    I think this is Blizzard trying to appease the ravenous Nelf fans a bit too much quite frankly.

    Granted, he could be referring to pure physical ability--not necessarily the entire sum of what makes one dangerous. Such as tactical understanding and adaptability.
    How can they appease Night Elf fans with that, that quote is from WC3.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    The biggest complaint I've read across the boards when it comes to the alliance, is how much they hate feeling like the underdogs.

    Really, this is how its been for the last few years, the dynamic has shifted from the horde being the underdogs and the alliance being the goodie good guy white knights, to now the alliance being the underdogs and the horde being the central focus.

    Apparently some people don't enjoy the feeling.
    Horde were underdogs? When?

    When they decimated the First War and about 89% of the Second War?
    When they were developed in Warcraft 3, found their independence, and killed an Alliance hero in an Alliance city with Jaina's aid in the expansion?
    During Classic? I'll give you that one; they were under developed then.
    In BC when they had actual things happening with Thrall in Outland, Rexxar in Blade's Edge, the blood elves' story of blood knights, and the reigniting of the Sunwell?
    In Wrath when a Horde splinter group took the stage and pwned both Horde and Alliance? Or when the Horde decimated Alliance forces at the Broken Front?
    Perhaps in Cataclsym when they won...every...battle...they...engaged...in?

    The Horde have never been the underdogs. They've been less in numbers and supposedly loosely organized, but they've always been shown to be a dominant force and have mostly had plenty of attention given to their development.

    It's not exactly a surprise. If one were to look at the entirety of WoW and if it were being told as a story or film, Thrall is the main protagonist ever since his introduction. The story of Warcraft from his birth has been about his journey. That doesn't mean it's all revolving around him. It's like Star Wars 1-6 is a saga about Anakin Skywalker, even if the entire thing doesn't revolve around him.

    The Alliance has been the underdog in every facet of Horde/Alliance conflict. And that's actually cool. It's the complete lack of the Alliance having any purpose other than a foil to the Horde that kind of sucks.

    The Alliance needs to get back to Classic where they dealt with their own problems and took action.
    The Horde needs to stick with their Cataclysm/MoP era where they take action and deal with problems.

    Not every problem needs to be with each other, though. There are tons of dangers and problems in Azeroth that can plague either side without bothering both.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    How can they appease Night Elf fans with that, that quote is from WC3.
    Oops, I actually read the name wrong. Just saw 'Hellscream' and immediately equated it to Garrosh--not used to Grom being a part of the discussion.

    That is a little more interesting but still largely irrelevant. ~ Humans are by far their greatest adversary. I mean for crying out loud the Horde nearly crushed the Night Elves and almost killed Tyrande in battle because they were so frigging predictable. It took the Worgen and Varian to save them from complete annihilation. xD
    Last edited by Kitterfly; 2013-04-26 at 11:27 PM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitterfly View Post
    They have to be, sorry to say. The quote is a bit silly in of itself and shouldn't be taken as an absolute considering all other forms of context.

    I think this is Blizzard trying to appease the ravenous Nelf fans a bit too much quite frankly.

    Granted, he could be referring to pure physical ability--not necessarily the entire sum of what makes one dangerous. Such as tactical understanding and adaptability.
    Um.....when GROM Hellscream said this, there was no such thing as a "ravenous Nelf fan" since Night Elves did not exist prior to the game in which that quote comes from.

    Edit: Someone beat me to it and you already responded XD
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  9. #109
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Different goals? They work together for their mutual survival and benefit. Sure, the demon driven horde that brought the Alliance together isn't there anymore, but there are still other threats to join together against such as the Legion, not to mention continued hostilities with the Horde. I don't see their ideals as having really shifted either, especially not in a dramatic enough way to say it's a 'new' organization. The Alliance has evolved, yes, lost members and gained new ones, but I'd hardly say that it's shifted enough to call it a 'new' alliance and I'm not presently aware of any lore except maybe some non canonical rpg book stuff that calls it a new alliance. (Though if there is some out there please share it with me.)
    Every Alliance is formed to help each other. There was more to the old Alliance than just that. It had a different character. The old Alliance was formed out of necessity. Band together or die. There was a certain urgency to it. And it wasn't an easy Alliance. There were tensions. People were not happy. People had to be convinced to work together. And it had a specific goal. Let's beat back the orcs. Even further than that: let's make sure the orcs don't do to others what they've done to us.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitterfly View Post
    Oops, I actually read the name wrong. Just saw 'Hellscream' and immediately equated it to Garrosh--not used to Grom being a part of the discussion.

    That is a little more interesting but still largely irrelevant. ~ Humans are by far their greatest adversary. I mean for crying out loud the Horde nearly crushed the Night Elves and almost killed Tyrande in battle because they were so frigging predictable. It took the Worgen and Varian to save them from complete annihilation. xD
    Which shows further that they've been made into cannon fodder rather than the masters of the forest they previously were meant to be.

    Don't get me wrong, I really liked Wolfheart. Tyrande and Malfurion actually seemed to be equal to one another, Anduin took steps towards his future path, and Varian was well developed from his starting point in forging his rage into control. It also did a good job letting the worgen cut loose and tear into Horde while also laying the first of many frustrating losses and the source of Garrosh's hatred for Varian.

    But the extent to which the night elves were totally and unquestionably decimated at every turn by Garrosh was just pathetic.

    Hell, even Ghostcrawler has commented on having liked the night elves when they used to be fierce.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-04-26 at 11:31 PM.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  11. #111
    Epic! Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    There is one real big problem with the alliance. Humans Run around doing shit while other races' leaders mostly do nothing at all, and when they are showed, its to be like: "Varian, im your bitch, use all my armies, forever yours. You were right, peace out"

    Varian steals all the spotlight from everyone. Horde leaders in comparison are all accounted for in this expansion with appearances in either books or cutscenes.
    Here is a small comparison:
    Humans
    -Varian: Every scenario has him in it, every alliance cutscene deals with him.
    -Jaina: A major focus during this expansion is on her. No problem tough, she deserves it.
    -Anduin: Same as his father mostly.
    Night elves
    -Tyrande- Used as a support character for varian in a scenario in MoP, being completely out of character. Didn't do much else. Look up and you will see what she pretty much said.
    -Malfurion- AFK ATM
    Gnomes
    -What gnomes? Who was their leader? Lor'themar mark 2? Not heard from at all.
    Worgen
    -Genn Greymane. Played a minor role in his starting zone. After that everything went to town and his race became pets for night elves. AFK for the moment.
    Dwarves
    -Pretty much same as Tyrande.
    Draenei
    -Velen: He is a prophet. Pretty much nothing else.

    I find that highly Irriating. Blizzard wants to make every race in the Alliance a loyal lapdog for the humans. The Night Elves' Ferocity of old is gone. The Worgen, the supposed "savage alliance race" are nothing more but pets and druids. Dwarves are being pricks and are pretty much servant N1 of Varian.

    The other alliance races never take any initiative, never do anything untill Varian tells them to. Booring, Characterless, alliance races. Sad.

    Couldn't agree more. I would love to see lots of new lore for Draenei with everything that's happened they are one of the most important races in WoW due to their connection with the Burning Legion and seeing them destroy their world first hand. Problem is that Blizzard has a hard on for Orcs vs Humans, which imo is the most generic boring excuse for lore direction ever. The reason WoW lore is so interesting is because of all the original races that exist in Warcraft. No I'm not talking about the generic Tolkien races but stuff like the Naga, Eredar, Dreadlords, the old gods etc. I think blizz needs to lay off the generic story boarding and do something interesting, just because this is an MMO doesn't mean that people need to be spoon fed a familiar story in order to get into the game.

  12. #112
    Here you have an expansion where the one of the oldest characters (Jaina) comes out and gets developed, Varian (who everyone was wondering who the hell he was back in Wrath) also getting some love, alliance starts crying "What about other races?". You even going get to raid Orgrimmar (and I'm not talking about the ol' For The alliance), but actual raid. Damn, allow us hordies to invade Stormwind and I would praise Blizzard as my new God!
    What does raiding Orgrimmar or Stormwind have to do with other alliance races getting lore?

    Hey guys, we get to raid Orgrimmar so alliance lore is perfect or something.

  13. #113
    The problem is that the only other leader in the alliance that was interesting was turned to stone before Cataclysm.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Which shows further that they've been made into cannon fodder rather than the masters of the forest they previously were meant to be.
    Night Elves lost their status along with their immortality really. This has made them uncertain and less capable.

    Humans more than anyone in the Alliance are the stewards of the world and by and large have been since their formation of the Alliance of Lordaeron. That said all the races play critical roles but it's very evident they revolve heavily around the strength and guidance of Stormwind much like the races of the Horde revolve around the orcs--although that is in question now due to Garrosh's actions.

    I don't see anything wrong with an emphasis on the two major races for various reasons. Although the instance with Tyrande did somewhat bother me as it did seem cheap and just outright horrible writing. Granted she could be emotionally compromised from her battle in Ashenvale. Blizzard does a poor job of filling gaps unless they release a few novels to do just that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 06:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    What does raiding Orgrimmar or Stormwind have to do with other alliance races getting lore?

    Hey guys, we get to raid Orgrimmar so alliance lore is perfect or something.
    I actually think both get to. The revolutionaries of the Horde and the Alliance both work to overthrow Garrosh.

    Buuuut... I could be wrong.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitterfly View Post

    I don't see anything wrong with an emphasis on the two major races for various reasons. Although the instance with Tyrande did somewhat bother me as it did seem cheap and just outright horrible writing. Granted she could be emotionally compromised from her battle in Ashenvale. Blizzard does a poor job of filling gaps unless they release a few novels to do just that.
    It's kind of bad storytelling to just say that humans and orcs are better at everything. It's silly and dumb. What's the point of other races if they're just crappier versions of humans and orcs?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    It's kind of bad storytelling to just say that humans and orcs are better at everything. It's silly and dumb. What's the point of other races if they're just crappier versions of humans and orcs?
    The humans and orcs are most balanced and versatile.

    Those sort tend to make the better leaders.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    What does raiding Orgrimmar or Stormwind have to do with other alliance races getting lore?

    Hey guys, we get to raid Orgrimmar so alliance lore is perfect or something.
    I'll agree with him that Jaina's involvement was great and Varian is developing well, but they really dropped the ball on the overall. Look at the Horde. In one expansion, we've seen a lot of development for Vol'jin, Lor'themar, more involvement from Thrall, and of course Garrosh as he's the villain. Sylvanas was a huge discussion topic for Cataclysm.

    Now imagine if they had carried on with Trials of the High King branded as Trials of the Supreme Commander for Varian to take on the roll in homage to the man who took him from Stormwind to safety. Varian respects and looks up to the memory of Anduin Lothar. His SON is named after the man. It would be symbolic for him to take on the same title and lead the Alliance forces in a time of war.

    Now let's imagine A Little Patience wasn't about Varian, but about Tyrande. Imagine Varian being there and suggesting a forward assault to draw the Horde out into the front grounds of the temple, then cut them down. Or even suggesting an outright assault, but voicing concerns since Anduin says it's a sacred place. Then Tyrande tells Varian the night elves are quite adept at handling combat in a forest or jungle. Varian defers to Tyrande and she advises the traps for the scenario to play out exactly as it did. After the victory, you have Varian speak to the effectiveness of Tyrande's tactics and comment on how such tactics could be used in coordination with Stormwind's own military tactics.

    Then if Blizzard had continued with the trials more quickly, you'd have Varian learning how the gnomes are most effective and the dwarves could still play out with Blood in the Snow showing Moira's commitment to the Alliance. Varian could comment on his familiarity with the worgen from the battle in Ashenvale so you'd have that covered.

    The whole concept wouldn't be "look how bad ass Varian is" but "let's see how Varian learns ABOUT his allies and how to coordinate their different tactics and fighting styles into a cohesive assault against Garrosh in the future."

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 11:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitterfly View Post
    Night Elves lost their status along with their immortality really. This has made them uncertain and less capable.
    Night elves were never immortal in combat, though.

    I still give Tyrande credit, though. With the exception of Bolvar for the Onyxia questline, Tyrande takes the title of "only faction leader to do something in Classic WoW." And she was well portrayed then too.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-04-26 at 11:45 PM.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Night elves were never immortal in combat, though.

    I still give Tyrande credit, though. With the exception of Bolvar for the Onyxia questline, Tyrande takes the title of "only faction leader to do something in Classic WoW." And she was well portrayed then too.
    Yes BUT they're no longer immune to the ravages of age and therefore their eternal army is no more.

    So wisdom, skill, thousands of years worth are lost with no real adequate replacement for that. It's a huge shift for them. Not to mention the discomfort/uncertainty it creates among them to begin with.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitterfly View Post
    Yes BUT they're no longer immune to the ravages of age and therefore their eternal army is no more.

    So wisdom, skill, thousands of years worth are lost with no real adequate replacement for that. It's a huge shift for them. Not to mention the discomfort/uncertainty it creates among them to begin with.
    Didnt they regain their immortality when Teldrassil was cleansed and blessed?

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Didnt they regain their immortality when Teldrassil was cleansed and blessed?
    No, I'm pretty sure Malfurion turned it down because immortality is bad or something.

    Which has to make his relationship with Velen awkward since Velen is immortal.

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