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  1. #1

    Malkorok Solo vs 2-tank Bloodrage (Heroic)

    My guild is about to start progression on Malkorok in 10 man heroic. The other tank and myself are at odds as to whether or not we should one or two tank the blood rage phase, so I was hoping for some community input to see if there's something we're missing. Some details:

    * I'm a Brewmaster with a crit-heavy setup, and he's a Blood DK.
    * Our healer comp is Holy Pally, Priest (switches between disc/holy, not sure what's best for this fight), and Resto Shaman
    * Potential DPS include some combination of (appropriately specced) rogue, hunter, ele sham, warrior, mage, and warlock.

    Basically, here's the Pro's vs Con's we've discussed:

    Pro:

    * Other tank can eat orbs in P2 (and likely less work from DPS for this)
    * Monk has more powerful DR and considered to be an excellent tank for this
    * Tank that has stacks won't be present taking extra damage

    Con:

    * Riskier, without cooldowns solo tank will get 1-shot, due to Monk having inherently lower hp (though I would use two stam trinkets, vial and rooks, to help offset this in addition to their other benefits)
    * We have a decent DPS comp to eat orbs, tank not needed (and DK CDs wouldn't be only marginally effective at this, according to him)
    * Shared vengenace means potentially more dps (does being the solo tank completely cap you on vengeance? if so, then it would be a dps loss to waste it)

    Looking for input (especially from healers who've downed this boss and tried both strategies) to help us decide. Is there even a drastic difference with either plan?

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Athura's Avatar
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    As a fellow Brewmaster, we solo tank this.
    My copartner is also a DK but is an engineer and simply uses his rocketboots + shell to clear the orbs.

    Build up lots of shuffle then for the first 3 hits, I just pop Dampen harm. During early progression I combined this with Avert Harm. (Now our disc simply pops a pain supression on me) then after those 3 hits, Zen meditation.
    It will be up for the remainer of the Bloodrage. If not, Fort brew.

    That's how we do it at least.
    Better regret something that you have done, then regretting something you haven't

  3. #3
    As far as I know, Paladins and Monks are the tanks best suited to solo soak it, however, it can be done with pretty much any class provided cooldowns are used correctly. Our group has neither, but we decided to solo soak it with a Blood DK over a Warrior. Solo soaking is entirely possible and has several advantages.

    First of all, you generally don't want the tank with a substantial number of stacks soaking as he will be taking ridiculous amounts of damage. Second, it allows your healers to dump heals and CDs on a single person. Finally, the off-tank can clear the entire inner circle from orbs without too much trouble, as long as he doesn't run in front of the cleave.

    Not sure about the specifics of Monk tanking, but you have a plethora of external cooldowns which need to be utilized properly. The Rook's trinket is very helpful here, and between Pain Suppression, Priest Bubble, and Smoke Bomb, you should not have too much trouble solo tanking for ~20 seconds. The most important thing to note is that you need to stack cooldowns, often a single one will not be enough.

  4. #4
    I don't understand your cooldowns, the math isn't there. Blood rage lasts for 20 seconds, Malkorok hits once every second for 20 seconds. Avert harm lasts 3 hits, so that's 3 seconds. Even if you wait to pop zen med for Pain Suppression to wear off, that's 8 seconds. Then Zen Med is another 8. This leaves at least 4 seconds (but really 9) unaccounted for in your cooldowns. Sure, fort brew covers the full duration, but I don't understand the rest of the cooldowns.

    To me, the best option seems to be:

    Pop fort brew right off the bat (since it lasts the full duration) with the first hit, along with dampen harm. Go into P2 with full chi. Proceed to purify after every hit with fort-brew up, until 8s are left, then pop Zen Med for the finale piece (giving healers ample opportunity to top you off going into the next P1).

  5. #5
    Don't forget you will have one tank debuffed significantly increasing the damage he takes (solo soaking levels).
    Only make passive aggressive posts when it doesn't make you look like a dumbass.

    Flawless - Cats on Ice. Raiding twice a week. Go casual or go home.

  6. #6
    I listed that as a "pro" for solo tanking. Can you weigh in on how big of a difference this makes?

  7. #7
    It's a LOT easier to solo tank than it sounds. Our Blood DK basically just needed 2 big CDs up at once.

    He started off with his AoE reduction trinket and IBF, when those ran out Hand of Sac, Barrier from the Priest (I was using PS to soak orbs), and Vigilance from the Warrior were more than enough. Probably would have been fine without one of the cooldowns for the last half. His vengeance was so high his blood shields were keeping him at 100% HP for the majority of it.
    Last edited by Vedni; 2014-02-11 at 08:13 PM.

  8. #8
    When we were progressing we spent a night and a half trying to two-tank the bloodrage. (I'm not one of the tanks.) It was also decided (I'm not sure why since our dps is pretty strong) that we'd try two healing it. We then decided to three heal after a few of us kept harping on it. That made things better but we were still losing one of our tanks during blood rage almost every time. Finally, our blood dk basically said "screw it, let me try solo tanking it" and many of us breathed a sigh of relief. Within about 4 pulls he was dead. Those few pulls were spent refining his own and external CD usage. Pain suppression was a big help from our disc priest as well.

    As far as monk tanking, we have a DK and war tank so I can't speak to that. I have read DKs and wars are the worst for it. Our DK does it just fine. Therefore, I'd say if you're a monk, get to it.

    TLR; From my own personal experience, solo tank blood rage. It seems to make things go so much more smoothly.

    As far as the orbs, I'm a hunter and an engineer, so I use rocketboots and clear half the room. Once boots runs out I usually use dash (which I get from symbiosis from our resto druid) for my second deterrence. Also, I began focusing on clearing the part of the room where people were standing who couldn't clear orbs as easily. When I got back to my area I just cleared them one or two at a time in my area before blood rage ran out. The damage can be healed at this point and it's usually small enough that residual healing takes care of it. However, I'd recommend discussing this with your healers so they don't feel like you're going to die while your tank is getting rocked.

    As far as vengeance, our DK usually ends up in the low to mid 300k dps range for the fight using this method. So he certainly enjoys it.

  9. #9
    One tank will effectively be eating double the split damage i.e. you'll be taking 150% of the damage incoming spread (I think it reaches at least 100% when the phase changes is incoming, I think I'm normally around 15 stacks or higher when the transition hits so this napkin math is off) 50/100%, so why not just one tank it? Our monk solo'd it with only the need for CDs if he screwed up, and let's not forget his vengeance will cap extremely quickly further easing incoming damage with a mega guard.

    Monk also went with a mastery heavy build for our first kill, and I wouldn't recommend two healing it. There just isn't enough damage to really justify it given if your DPS is high enough you'll completely avoid the 2nd transition and will be able to use every CD at your disposal on your tank if its needed.
    Only make passive aggressive posts when it doesn't make you look like a dumbass.

    Flawless - Cats on Ice. Raiding twice a week. Go casual or go home.

  10. #10
    Solo soaking should be easy in 10M for any tank (I do it as a druid). Your 30% HP buff lasts all 20 seconds, and every tank will have enough cooldowns and externals to reduce each blood rage hit below 1m each.

    A pro to solo tank that you didn't list is that it's easier for healers to focus on a single person than on two.

    Another pro you didn't list is that you can't both be clear of the +dmg debuff stacks. Whoever goes into blood rage with stacks is going to be taking dmg as if he's solo tanking anyway.

  11. #11
    Solo tanking it on 10 man is really overestimated sometimes. It is actually extremely easy as a monk of any build, so much so that as long as you don't go in with any stacks fort brew+purifying every swing will get you through with limited healing needed. I don't recommend using two stam trinkets as a monk, although if your dps is low and you get a second blood rage Vial will probably let you fort brew again for that one. The most important thing is that if you do get 2 blood rages you have most of your cds up for the second one as that one was a little bit harder to stay up for.

    So for the first one you can very easily Fort Brew at the start and Dampen Harm somewhere in the middle. If you really want a Hand of Sacrifice I guess you can get one too. Going in with some Chi stored definitely makes this easier if you're planning to make it really easy and purify as often as you take a swing, but it's also easy enough to keep DPSing and just purifying as needed every hit or two.

    If you opt for Vial you'll probably have Fort Brew up for the second one, but it's not necessary. Zen Med the first 8s, Pain Sup the next 8s, Dampen Harm to ride it out and maybe a guard for the last hit and you're done.

  12. #12
    Double tanking it makes no sense at all, because one of those tanks is going to have at least 10 stacks of the debuff effectively tanking double damage which means they are taking the exact same damage they would be if they where solo tanking it, along with another tank sitting there and taking half damage as well.

    On a brewmaster it is easy as pie to solo tank it. Pop Fort Brew and DH right at the start, when DH is wore off pop Rook's(if you don't have Rook's then get an external). Zen med if ever in danger of dying but 4 piece can easily heal through the damage alone. Progressing on this fight I solo'd the entire blood rage with everyone else dead and no outside healing, it's not bad at all. If you get a 2nd blood rage you need to get an external at the start, or zen med(if you didn't need to use it in the first) as FB will still have a few seconds on CD. Rooks and DH will be back up.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    Blood rage lasts for 20 seconds, Malkorok hits once every second for 20 seconds.
    Not sure how you came to this conclusion. Malkorok has hit me exactly 13 times with Blood Rage in every log I've looked at plus spot checking random logs. Also logs show Zen Med to eat up 4 of those hits, and breaks early, otherwise it would be getting 5. You can plan your CDs in many ways, maybe ask your healers when they are most busy, and use Zen Med then?

  14. #14
    Your tank will take more damage 2-tanking it than solo-tanking it. You'll do more damage with the extra vengeance of course. Typically one tank will have 12-15 stacks during the bloodrage.

    If you one tank, the tank will be taking 100% of bloodrage damage depending on difficulty.
    If you two tank, one tank will be taking 110-125% bloodrage damage (at 12-15 stacks), and the other tank will be taking 50% of bloodrage damage.

    When planning your cooldowns, remember that the difference between the two blood rage phases is shorter than 3 minutes. You will not have your 3 minute cooldowns up for both Bloodrages without the cooldown reduction trinket.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Slatch View Post
    Not sure how you came to this conclusion. Malkorok has hit me exactly 13 times with Blood Rage in every log I've looked at plus spot checking random logs. Also logs show Zen Med to eat up 4 of those hits, and breaks early, otherwise it would be getting 5. You can plan your CDs in many ways, maybe ask your healers when they are most busy, and use Zen Med then?
    You actually need more healing from healers in zen med then you do if not in it. You can keep yourself alive without much outside healing at all outside of it, inside zen med you just build up a massive stagger tick and the stagger damage isn't reduced by zen med. Zen Med should be used as an oh shit button if you mess up, not part of your CD rotation. Your healers won't need to do anything but put hots and what not on you if you purify after every blood rage hit with 4 piece.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    You actually need more healing from healers in zen med then you do if not in it. You can keep yourself alive without much outside healing at all outside of it, inside zen med you just build up a massive stagger tick and the stagger damage isn't reduced by zen med. Zen Med should be used as an oh shit button if you mess up, not part of your CD rotation. Your healers won't need to do anything but put hots and what not on you if you purify after every blood rage hit with 4 piece.
    Taking a look at logs says I took less damage during Zen than outside of it. The stagger was 50-100% bigger, but the Blood rage hit was much smaller for an overall reduction in damage taken during a Zen Med. A 200-300k dot with a health pool of ~1.9M is hardly noticeable.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Slatch View Post
    Taking a look at logs says I took less damage during Zen than outside of it. The stagger was 50-100% bigger, but the Blood rage hit was much smaller for an overall reduction in damage taken during a Zen Med. A 200-300k dot with a health pool of ~1.9M is hardly noticeable.
    Taking less damage has nothing to do at all with what I said.

    The healers have to heal the stagger DoT if you are sitting in Zen Med. They don't even need to breath on you if you are healing through the damage yourself(which you can't do while in zen med).

    There is a reason you never look at damage taken to judge how well you tanked in comparison to otherwise. You look at the amount of healing required from your healers to keep you alive. If you want to go off of damage taken, Monks would be one of the worst tanks in the game lol...

    The fight is survivable with no outside healing at all on a brewmaster, sitting in zen med just forces the healers to actually have to heal you. You are a worthless raid member sitting in zen, losing 8 seconds of dps with prime vengeance, along with not doing the sole thing that makes monks the best tanks for the blood rage- your self healing.

    On a side note I find it hilarious you just said 200k-300k dps being done to you without you helping to heal it at all is "hardly noticeable"
    Last edited by Tech614; 2014-02-13 at 12:44 AM.

  18. #18
    Depending on the fight or situation there is often a base amount of outside healing going out on a player, and more applies to an active tank. This covers ground effects, hots, smart heals, Beacon, procs, and some random other things like Prayer of Mending. The amount this adds up to can vary with many things. As long as damage intake is less than base healing, then healers don't need to focus on that person.

    So the question for Maklorok and using Zen Med during a Blood Rage is: Does Blood Rage + Stagger damage exceed that base amount of heals? Once again after taking a look at logs it appears that I did not need additional heals, and that base healing amount covered the damage intake. This is why the damage is "hardly noticeable". My healers don't have to change how they heal, with overall damage going down. That's a win in my book.

    Now if a person's healing comp or skill set is different, and they find that they do better with never using Zen Med, more power to them. Use what keeps you alive.
    Last edited by Slatch; 2014-02-13 at 02:05 AM.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord Angrybathtub's Avatar
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    Make sure you have atleast ~20 sec of shuffle up (shouldn't be to hard).
    Zen med as soon as he starts to swing, then fort brew and dampen harm.
    Purify and use chi wave properly, you won't need any external CDs.

    Don't forget to use Xuen for insane damage with all the vengeance you get.
    Last edited by Angrybathtub; 2014-02-13 at 02:13 AM.

  20. #20
    Tech614 if you have logs showing otherwise about healing needed while using Zen Med then show them. Your point about dishing out more damage is valid, however survival comes first. I'll look into taking Zen Med out of my rotation and see how it feels.

    Take a look at this log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...?s=7269&e=7482
    Zoom in on the spike you see on me where the bad druid dies. Look for the 2:29 mark. After that point I am receiving about 1/2 the heals I needed before that mark. Now if the removal of my self heals caused healers to have to increase their portion of healing on me then Zen Med would be bad. But since I already looked through logs and saw they didn't need to increase their portion of the healing, then it seems to be a solid CD to use.

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