1. #1

    About Shuriken Toss

    Does anyone use this anymore? Shuriken toss in its current state should either be completely removed from the game or made baseline and give us a new 90 point talent. I don't care either way, but right now its a complete waste of a talent. From a pvp perspective 5.2 ST was overpowered when combined with deadly throw something needed to be done with it, but neutering it completely wasn't the answer. I know giving rogues a range attack talent that is worth taking is going to be a balance nightmare, but right now we have a garbage talent to go along with 2 very good talents.

  2. #2
    ST is still ok against Hunters and Mages, but MfD will probably give more benefit in most situations.

    CnD is another garbage talent now that they just decided to leave in.

  3. #3
    They just gutted the move. A 50% nerf and I'm supposed to take that seriously?

    MfD in general. ST can still be ok in situations it was actually good in before, such as versus casters that have ludicrous free mobility or a thousand roots, but these fights are so painfully uphill anyway for our whole class that it's very much a choice to go with MfD and hope for a burst cycle opening up at some point.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    They just gutted the move. A 50% nerf and I'm supposed to take that seriously?

    MfD in general. ST can still be ok in situations it was actually good in before, such as versus casters that have ludicrous free mobility or a thousand roots, but these fights are so painfully uphill anyway for our whole class that it's very much a choice to go with MfD and hope for a burst cycle opening up at some point.
    Yes ST was quite strong pre-nerf but now combined with the CnD nerf we almost feel like sitting ducks compared to most ranged.

  5. #5
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    As I'm Assassination in PvP I have to take Anticipation, but Shuriken Toss actually gave me some fight back against Hunters and Mages when I was Combat. Now I just feel at sea when caught at range with only cloak-vanish to save me.

    I still take CnD over SS though, as I prefer passive talents to active ones (there's far too much ability bloat).
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  6. #6
    I still want them to make anticipation baseline and then we have an interesting choice between mfd and toss
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  7. #7
    very good thread thanks for the information

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Tommo's Avatar
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    Shuriken tossers rape my hunter >_<

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by theturn View Post
    I still want them to make anticipation baseline and then we have an interesting choice between mfd and toss
    It's just way too good from a pve standpoint and when you start pvping with mfd, it feels so weird trying to save up combo points and can't

  10. #10
    I'm glad it isn't the go to ability now.

    It was extremely broken in 5.2 to the point where I actually rathered keeping hunters at range more than I did rogues.
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  11. #11
    I have no idea why anyone would want to be at range versus a hunter, even with toss. Being able to autoattack from range is sweet, but it doesn't make up for superior options in melee.

  12. #12
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    It's still a strong talent, just not as ridiculous as in 5.2. Not only did it do a lot of damage, a lot more than you should expect from a pure melee class, it was stupidly easy to build combo points with it. The main reason that deadly trow had such a great synergy with ST was because of that combo point generation, which is nerfed in a good way. Another way to nerf it was putting a 50% chance on generating a combo point on it, but I don't think rogues would like some more rng.

    I do however agree that MfD is currently the superior talent for Sub PvP, but ST is still far from useless. PvP wise, anticipation is still the worst choice.

  13. #13
    I think anticipation is a poor choice for even a mutilate pvp rogue, tbh. I think MfD is your go-to.


    Here's the problem with ST: it was dumb to get a combo point for 20 energy. The weakauras I use on my rogue display as colored bars. Rupture is red, hemo (or revealing, or free-dispatch proc) is orange, and slice is yellow. The cooldowns complete the rainbow. When I'm in PvP, I still need those red and yellow bars no matter what. Rupture drops, 17% damage loss off of everything. Oof. Slice drops, lose like 50% autoattack speed and a huge chunk of energy regen. Recuperate I have as a faint green, but sometimes I need to run it too. And of course, don't forget that kidney eats up combo points.

    During a burst cycle, you NEED rupture up. You SHOULD HAVE slice up. Outside of a burst cycle, your damage is really really dumb. So it became a thing where you want to build CPs as cheaply and quickly as possible. Not as efficiently mind you- a rogue will normally hemo instead of backstab if your health is just going to get rejuved back to full constantly. So ST, even point blank, became a pretty ok way to build CPs between burst cycles. It also was going to be, at some gear levels, an optimal builder in PvE- say it is next tier and Rune of Reorigination procs mastery for you as muti or sub, you may well have so much damage bonus to your finishers that cheaper builders can get you an extra finisher during the duration, for instance.

    So I was in favor of their original change- doubling the ST damage and doubling the cost- but when they decided that the only change the move needed was "double the cost", it became super dumb. A 30 energy version would have been worth considering. As would more actual damage out of it. It still actually does the thing that does all the damage- triggers the excellent autoattacks. But at 40 energy, you will sometimes not have it up promptly, and it's now a terrible waste of energy if you will be back in melee soon.

    The problem in pvp is that what constitutes a "melee class" is pretty ludic at this point. You can meaningfully root a warrior or rogue. A ret or cat will spend a global fixing that. An enhance has a pretty great cooldown, and can legit cast at you too, or blow ascendance, which just lets them have a melee range equal to like, the arena. A monk mostly can't be peeled either. A DK can be peeled, but will continue a pretty effective rotation on you, in addition to having a decent number of choices- a passive snare suppression, and of course death grip.

    So I don't think that the ranged damage of ST is in ANY way misplaced. If anything, I kind of think they could baseline it. The level 90 talents are all kind of strange. Anticipation seems like it could be baselined- at least for 1 CP it could be, at least. MfD feels like it should share a tier with some other combo point or burst talents. ST seems like it's just flat out needed versus some comps, control being what it is. I don't think these are bad talents (versatility was), but neither are they all that logical as mates.

  14. #14
    I enjoyed MfD a lot in random BGs, and even some in RBGs, but the amount of times an FC or orb carrier got away with less than 10% health because I had no cooldowns and I didn't have ST finally made me go back to it.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoepfeand View Post
    I enjoyed MfD a lot in random BGs, and even some in RBGs, but the amount of times an FC or orb carrier got away with less than 10% health because I had no cooldowns and I didn't have ST finally made me go back to it.
    Vanish-CnD Cheap?

    I know that just moving the problem from one tier to another...
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  16. #16
    Ah, I should have indicated - I never jumped on the CnD bandwagon. I know that was dumb, and that I should have. It wasn't any elitist thing, I just liked having shadowstep so that I could have in-or-out-of-stealth mobility when I wanted it. ST has a longer range than step, and step or CnD + nova/root = still wishing I had ST back.

    Luckily for me, since I never gave myself the opportunity to appreciate it for being awesome, I don't miss it either now

  17. #17
    I found CnD awful with a shadow priest partner. I only used it versus trip dps. The move seemed to favor a comp that is fast, like thugcleave (or even RMP). Since that was a rank 1 comp, they had to nerf it, but honestly, it was not just super compelling for all rogues.

  18. #18
    I'm just glad CND affects all specs pretty close to equally now,even though in it's current iteration it sucks. Should have stuck with Hit and Run without the forced teleport back to location. (just allow your option to port back to run out)

  19. #19

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