Thread: Envenom Uptime

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  1. #1

    Envenom Uptime

    Can anyone share with me the secret of getting your uptimes from 50%ish to 70%ish?

    What I currently do is mutilate (2-3cp), snd, mutilate (2-3cp), rupture, mutilate 5cp, envenom. From there I weave in rupture when it is about to fall with whatever CP I have and making sure I do not clip more than 1 sec. When rupture is rolling, I mutilate to build to 5cp and pool energy to 70-80ish before using envenom, and then repeat the rupture & envenom strategy. I usually save blindside procs for right after I have envenom up.

    The other rogue in my group seems to keep his envenom uptime up around 70ish while mine is 50ish. He has about double my anticipation charges and about 20% more envenoms cast. When I ask, I don't really get a good answer from him. Am I spamming too much?
    Last edited by Nocuous; 2013-05-24 at 08:48 PM. Reason: additional info

  2. #2
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    Can you link logs? I don't play Rogue much (and never play Assass - it's too slow for my liking) but chances are it's something to do with getting 10 CP and using envenom twice or three times. e.g. pool energy > Envenom > muti/bs x2 > Envenom > Muti/bs x3 > Envenom.. etc.

    Also, aren't you supposed to be doing high point ruptures due to more energy waste? Again, I don't play Rogue much.
    Last edited by Treelife; 2013-05-24 at 08:52 PM.

  3. #3
    Don't save blindside procs: use them before using any other mutilate. The fact that it has less of a chance to proc poisons means nothing: a mutilate has double the chance to proc rather than a blinside and overwriting a blindside proc is much more detrimental to your damage due to lost damage and combopoints.

    Apart from that, it might be that he's going for haste while you're going for mastery? Without logs and armories we can't really compare.
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  4. #4
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2l...?s=4411&e=4744

    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    Also, aren't you supposed to be doing high point ruptures due to more energy waste?
    I usually try to aim for 5cp ruptures, but if it is about to drop I pop whatever CPs i have.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-24 at 02:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Don't save blindside procs: use them before using any other mutilate. The fact that it has less of a chance to proc poisons means nothing: a mutilate has double the chance to proc rather than a blinside and overwriting a blindside proc is much more detrimental to your damage due to lost damage and combopoints.
    Does this mean I shouldn't be using blindside during envenom uptime?
    Last edited by Nocuous; 2013-05-24 at 09:07 PM. Reason: wow, i can't get this edit right...

  5. #5
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2l...?s=4411&e=4744 (was linked above but removed?)

    Himitsurugi:
    Dispatch - 67
    Mutilate - 69
    Anticipation - 104
    Rupture - 64.8%
    Envenom - 74.1%
    #used - 43

    Noccuous:
    Dispatch - 61
    Mutilate - 62
    Anticipation - 42
    Rupture - 67.8%
    Envenom - 55.7%
    #used - 34


    Himitsurugi's Envenom's look a lot closer together, almost chained - so I assume it's like I said and using them in bursts. He is also using more abilities in general than you are: Dispatch(+6), Mutilate(+7) and Envemom(+9).

    He also used TotT 3 times more than you. Though, assuming you tricks each other, that's more of a gain for you.
    Last edited by Treelife; 2013-05-24 at 09:15 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nocuous View Post
    Does this mean I shouldn't be using blindside during envenom uptime?
    It means that if you have a blindside proc up you use that instead of using another mutilate. Normal rules for mutilate usage still apply for dispatch too.

    Your anticipation charges strike as really low too. Avoid clipping envenom by more than one second (values less than one second get applied to the next buff just like dots, everything else is time lost) by considering anticipation charges just like extra combopoints. Basically, plan your rotation around having 10 combopoints instead of 5.
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-05-24 at 09:29 PM.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

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  7. #7
    Pool some energy before you Envenom, so you can get in two mutilates during the buff so you have 5+cps ready to refresh Envenom immediately

  8. #8
    My Env uptime is best when I can spam the hell out of everything in SB and come out with 9-10CPs, low energy, and healthy Rupture/Env times. From there, I pool until just before capping energy and CP or Env is about to fall off, then use Env. While Env is rolling, you want to build into Anticipation as much as you can without potentially losing CPs. You will need to play at high energy and Anticipation to avoid dropping Env when you need to refresh Rupture.

    I also save my Vanish/Prep until I see I won't be able to maintain both Rupture and Env full time. This nets you "free" CPs when you need them; using it before then will just result in more Env clipping, energy capping, or CP capping.

    Also note that haste builds will have higher Env uptime, but Env will do more damage for mastery builds. The gap isn't as large as the one you're describing though. It's probably just a matter of utilizing your SB and Vanish/Prep better while playing off Anticipation and at high energy more.

    Hopefully this makes some sense. It's a flow that I've developed an intuition for and have trouble describing.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2l...?s=4411&e=4744 (was linked above but removed?)

    Himitsurugi:
    Dispatch - 67
    Mutilate - 69
    Anticipation - 104
    Rupture - 64.8%
    Envenom - 74.1%
    #used - 43

    Noccuous:
    Dispatch - 61
    Mutilate - 62
    Anticipation - 42
    Rupture - 67.8%
    Envenom - 55.7%
    #used - 34


    Himitsurugi's Envenom's look a lot closer together, almost chained - so I assume it's like I said and using them in bursts. He is also using more abilities in general than you are: Dispatch(+6), Mutilate(+7) and Envemom(+9).

    He also used TotT 3 times more than you. Though, assuming you tricks each other, that's more of a gain for you.
    Yeah, I had to run out for one cinders (not sure if he did). I assume the use of abilities difference is due to more energy from relentless strikes. Also, I didn't have shadowblades or vendetta up during lust...still trying to adjust to new team.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-24 at 03:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    My Env uptime is best when I can spam the hell out of everything in SB and come out with 9-10CPs, low energy, and healthy Rupture/Env times. From there, I pool until just before capping energy and CP or Env is about to fall off, then use Env. While Env is rolling, you want to build into Anticipation as much as you can without potentially losing CPs. You will need to play at high energy and Anticipation to avoid dropping Env when you need to refresh Rupture.

    I also save my Vanish/Prep until I see I won't be able to maintain both Rupture and Env full time. This nets you "free" CPs when you need them; using it before then will just result in more Env clipping, energy capping, or CP capping.

    Also note that haste builds will have higher Env uptime, but Env will do more damage for mastery builds. The gap isn't as large as the one you're describing though. It's probably just a matter of utilizing your SB and Vanish/Prep better while playing off Anticipation and at high energy more.

    Hopefully this makes some sense. It's a flow that I've developed an intuition for and have trouble describing.
    So get 9-10 CPs and then 90ish energy before using envenom? What is everyone using to track anticipation charges?

  10. #10
    Hey man, found your thread while lurking! Have to say, these past few weeks I've been pretty burnt out after raid, so I apologize if I wasn't very well-spoken in fielding questions about logs and stuff. Odds are, even under the best circumstances, I won't be able to address exactly what you want to know 100% of the time, so it's good that you made a thread to get some feedback from this most distinguished rogue community.

    There are a few things I can add about this particular fight and about my rotation habits that may help; we'll see, I guess!

    First of all, I stopped on the trash before this boss a few seconds early to save my trinket, which was coming off its ICD, and to redirect 5 cps to the first head. I don't know if you did the same, but it really helps get the absolute most out of our initial burst phase at the beginning (i.e. when we have synapse springs, trinkets, prepots, dancing steels, racials, vendettas, stormlashes, banners, and SBs lined up!)

    I opened with mut from stealth, putting me at 5 cps + 2, ruptured, snd (with the 2 anticipation procs), mut, mut (to roughly 5+ cp), then blow cds - vendetta, then shadow blades/envenom. I put up vendetta at this point so that, first, I pool a little energy during the gcd that it requires and, second, I get to use my first envenom with the 25% damage buff, thus also guaranteeing a near-100% envenom uptime during shadow blades. I should also point out that our fury warrior, Doublekill, likes to use his banner on CD, and has it macro'ed to a /say, so the faster you can get this opener down, the more uptime you'll get for SB burst WITH skull banner bonuses. (That's why I start with 5 cp rupture first, so that I only have to worry about refreshing it after Vendetta, SB, etc. falls off; plus I like the extra tick of energy.) Any time you see him pop his banner, pop available CDs! TL;DR: my ideal opener requires two fewer GCDs than the one you have up there, provides a rupture that covers your entire burst window, and hastens the beginning of your Vendetta/SB start.

    During Shadow Blades, (making sure I have at least 12 seconds left on rupture), I spam mut to 5 cps + 4-5 anti cps, then envenom twice. I do not pool; I ignore blindside procs unless I am low on energy. If I'm low AND have no blindside, I vanish and mut. (Vanish has the added bonus of wiping threat.) My reasoning is that, with the lowered GCD during shadow blades, it's much more reliable and efficient to use as many GCDs as possible rather than trying to min-max blindside procs, cp capping, and envenom clipping. I repeat this until I have about two seconds of SB left, then build as many cps as possible for after. I don't know how much it really matters, but I agree with Squirl when it comes to vanish - it may seem like a dps loss because of the reset swing timer, the lost passive melee hits and DP applications, but it is probably a dps gain if it helps you smooth out unlucky parts of the rotation (i.e. blindside dearth).

    As for lining up CDs, you're right to say that it takes some getting used to - this week everyone had a 6 ilvl upgrade due to the 5.3 return of the ethereals, so the heads were dying at inopportune times. Whereas normally I would use Vendetta on the 3rd head, I had to delay for the 4th, for example. At any rate, we both managed to squeeze in 3 vendettas and 2 SBs.

    Rotation-wise, I can tell you what is ideal for single target for me: once every minute or so, I reach a point at which I have too few cps and too little energy AND rupture is falling off. This means I will have to invest time in ramping up by building cps, rupturing with 5 cps, building more cps, THEN envenoming and hopefully getting the rotation back to normal. It's at these points that I use vanish to help fill out those two or three missing cps to keep rupture rolling. Beyond that, I envenom at 5cp + n and 45+ energy, which guarantees me at least two mutilates under the envenom buff, plus blindside procs. Whenever I mutilate during envenom, I tap my dispatch keybind right after, since it can use procs faster than the game can register the visual cue. Often times, assuming raid mechanics aren't interrupting your uptime on the target, you can sit at a comfortable 5 cps +2-3 ant cps by the time your envenom falls off. I don't how much of this makes sense - as Squirl said, it's a flow thing and not necessarily an easily articulated rotation - but the above is my explanation for our difference in anticipation procs and anticipation uptimes, to which I would primarily attribute the disparity in our envenom uptimes and subsequently our dps. In short, more often than not, by the time my envenom buff falls off, I'm sitting on 5 cps + 2-4 anticipation procs. (If you want a crappy tracker, ask me in-game, and I'll give you the string for my WeakAura ^^) If I can't reach that comfortable zone of 5 cps and 2-4 extra, I vanish or spend a few seconds building up to 5 and start over.

    As for gearing and reforging - I'm currently ignoring Shadowcraft's insistence that I go for haste. Reforges I shoot for 6-7.5% expertise, hit cap, and the rest mastery.

    Can't post my armory, but here's me: Himitsurugi > US-Blackrock

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by himitsurugi View Post
    -snipped for space- please check length of quotes!
    You should be putting up Rupture after your first Vendetta and SnD immediately. Mute (from stealth) - SnD - Pop CDs - Mute - Rupture - Rotation
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-05-25 at 07:42 PM. Reason: HUGE quote
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  12. #12
    Field Marshal Grayjoy's Avatar
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    Thanks for that, Himit. I love the description of the ephemeral "flow" assassination has from people in this thread. It's a deceptively simple spec in that you can only get great results after completely immersing yourself in the nuances of the rotation.

  13. #13
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    Great thread, I've been looking for some comments about this gameplay flow that Assassination typically has for my Rogue alt. It's nice to see it written in full for once

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    It means that if you have a blindside proc up you use that instead of using another mutilate. Normal rules for mutilate usage still apply for dispatch too.

    Your anticipation charges strike as really low too. Avoid clipping envenom by more than one second (values less than one second get applied to the next buff just like dots, everything else is time lost) by considering anticipation charges just like extra combopoints. Basically, plan your rotation around having 10 combopoints instead of 5.
    Playing to anticipation is wholly unnecessary. Assassination (and sub) don't gain as much by delaying finishers as combat (due to BG). My experience has been that utilizing anticipation is only needed under two conditions. One is to plan around rupture refreshes (start pooling anticipation charges when rupture gets low so you can envenom then rupture or vice versa). The other is when you get a lucky streak of VW procs and you have more energy than you can spend during an envenom buff. Otherwise there is no reason not to pool and envenom as normal once you have 5 combo points, regardless of how many anticipation charges you have. With more haste (= more energy), you can set your pool point to less energy to combat envenom buff clipping. In other words, if you're clipping envenom a lot and need anticipation, you might be pooling too high. Anticipation for assassination exists solely to allow 5-pt finishers without wasting combo points.

    That said, envenom buff uptime isn't as important as you'd think. It's only 30% more DP-I damage during that window. The difference between 70% uptime and 50% uptime is probably in the neighborhood of ~2% dps difference. Fitting in all your combo builders in the envenom window has an even smaller impact than envenom buff uptime.

    But yes, the blindside proc is an important one. Never mutilate before using a blindside proc, regardless of envenom buff.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-05-26 at 09:56 PM.

  15. #15
    The Patient Lunareste's Avatar
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    Alternatively, you can get more Envenom uptime from using Vanish-Envenom when you're at 5 cp and low energy. You can plan your energy/CP distribution around this if you are pooling Combo Points via Anticipation.

    I'm a washed up, has-been.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Playing to anticipation is wholly unnecessary. Assassination (and sub) don't gain as much by delaying finishers as combat (due to BG). My experience has been that utilizing anticipation is only needed under two conditions. One is to plan around rupture refreshes (start pooling anticipation charges when rupture gets low so you can envenom then rupture or vice versa). The other is when you get a lucky streak of VW procs and you have more energy than you can spend during an envenom buff. Otherwise there is no reason not to pool and envenom as normal once you have 5 combo points, regardless of how many anticipation charges you have. With more haste (= more energy), you can set your pool point to less energy to combat envenom buff clipping. In other words, if you're clipping envenom a lot and need anticipation, you might be pooling too high. Anticipation for assassination exists solely to allow 5-pt finishers without wasting combo points.

    That said, envenom buff uptime isn't as important as you'd think. It's only 30% more DP-I damage during that window. The difference between 70% uptime and 50% uptime is probably in the neighborhood of 1-1.5% dps difference.
    I'm finding myself in the situation you described loads of times. I tried, for example, a full mastery approach on farm this week and on Durumu I had a total of 146 anticipation charges gained over a 7:27 mins period, while mantaining 77.1% envenom.
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  17. #17
    So theorycrafting assassination question. Is anticipation really our best dps increase talent? I definitely agree it catches an extra combo point here and there, so that's good and a dps increase. But are those caught points going to bring as much to the table as the 5-combo point generator ability. I know it will almost never re-proc on a boss fight because they won't die, but i've been considering taking that talent and testing it out over anticipation. I've considered even throwing a 4-point envenom so that I don't lose the extra combo point or two from a Mut with this talent rather than Anticipation. If this is totally stupid, my apoligies - it's been awhile for me and im sorta newb again.

    Also one other question, when we are in Dispatch time <35% and my vanish comes of CD, is it better to then throw the Mut or a Dispatch at the enemy to come out of stealth. I have been using a Mut - since it saves more energy for my outta stealth energy reduction - but i'm not so sure since Dispatch hits so hard.
    Last edited by slime; 2013-05-26 at 10:23 PM.

  18. #18
    The Patient Lunareste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    So theorycrafting assassination question. Is anticipation really our best dps increase talent? I definitely agree it catches an extra combo point here and there, so that's good and a dps increase. But are those caught points going to bring as much to the table as the 5-combo point generator ability. I know it will almost never re-proc on a boss fight because they won't die, but i've been considering taking that talent and testing it out over anticipation. I've considered even throwing a 4-point envenom so that I don't lose the extra combo point or two from a Mut with this talent rather than Anticipation. If this is totally stupid, my apoligies - it's been awhile for me and im sorta newb again.

    Anticipation is by far the single best talent that rogues get out of tree. Nothing else is even close, it completely changes the way that Combat and Assassination operate.

    The thing about Anticipation is that, as Assassination, you should be pooling energy in order to maximize mutilates during Envenom buff uptime. What you may not have figured out is that you should also be saving Anticipation points in order to get better cycle stability and the freedom to reapply Rupture without interrupting your Envenom uptime or your rotation by saving the extra combo points you earn via Shadow Blades, procs while you are at 5 combo points, and using only 5 point finishers.

    4 point finishers have been phased out of our rotation entirely due to the fact that Anticipation exists, and if you're using a 5 point finisher instead of a 4 point finisher, you are guaranteed 25 energy returned on every finisher via Relentless Strikes, rather than just having an 80% chance. Over the course of a fight, and with several reapplications of Envenom and Rupture, you are potentially gaining several hundred more energy than using 4 point finishers.
    Last edited by Lunareste; 2013-05-26 at 10:27 PM.

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  19. #19
    Thank you for the quick reply. i dont think I am using anticipation right - as you state there. For me it's more of a safety net to catch extra points I would've normally lost, but It sounds like there is a much more offensive way to use it as you described here.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Thank you for the quick reply. i dont think I am using anticipation right - as you state there. For me it's more of a safety net to catch extra points I would've normally lost, but It sounds like there is a much more offensive way to use it as you described here.
    You should think of Anticipation as having a maximum of ten combopoints.
    Your goal is to have as much rupture and envenom uptime as possible.
    In order to use your finishers as efficiently as possible you should use them with at least 5 combopoints.
    Planning whether to take advantage of Anticipation or not is basically a matter of not clipping (rupture < 2 seconds, envenom < 1 second get rolled into the next one)
    in order to maximise the uptime you have.
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