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  1. #1
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    Rogue 6.0 Fanbased Talents

    The_Butcher's Talent Build
    LilSaihah's Talent Build
    Alexand3r's Talent Build
    sayewonn's Talent Build


    So I made this purely fanbased custom talent calculator for rogues for the next expansion, originally chose the link from Death-Knight-6-0-The-Proposed-Redesign by Clash1.

    I added a few forgotten rogue abilities, a killshot/execute ability, buffed a good handful of moves, and even stole another concept move from someone else who was working on the rogue talent calculator (all credit was mentioned in the link to Alexand3r) I am posting it here on MMO-Champion for any critique, questions or comments, etc.

    Note: if a talent is too long to read, double clicking it will allow it to stay in place

    - Cheers The_Butcher



    Edit: Rearranged Talents, removed Rogue of Ravenholdt & Re-added Anticipation. posted the Sha Form description in the lower chatbox. hopefully a slight improvement

    Edit: Updated/Buffed Poison Bomb

    Edit: Reworked my talent calc a bit more, copied 2 abilities from LilSaihah, all credit for those abilities goes entirely to her. Tried to nerf sha form a little bit, any additional suggestions would be appreciated
    Last edited by The_Butcher; 2013-05-23 at 12:34 PM. Reason: added other talent build posts all credit reserved to creators
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphta
    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  2. #2
    Mechagnome khatsoo's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but there's no choice in most of these talents.
    A lot of reused/mixed/glyph talents, some puteverythingyoucanintherewtfshaformlolol.
    I didn't like it, sorry!

    PD: Whipcoil seems cool as a CheapShot Grip and Hostage concept looks cool, but the mechanics aren't so well explained.

  3. #3
    My first critique is fix that color scheme. God, my eyes are still bleeding. No, I didn't read any of it.

    Seriously, make it readable without inducing a headache and I can provide some constructive criticism.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    My first critique is fix that color scheme. God, my eyes are still bleeding. No, I didn't read any of it.

    Seriously, make it readable without inducing a headache and I can provide some constructive criticism.
    can't really change the color scheme, that blame is for the web dev. =\
    If you won't read any of it, then I'm not sure how else to answer your critique.

    Quote Originally Posted by khatsoo View Post
    I'm sorry but there's no choice in most of these talents.
    A lot of reused/mixed/glyph talents, some puteverythingyoucanintherewtfshaformlolol.
    I didn't like it, sorry!

    PD: Whipcoil seems cool as a CheapShot Grip and Hostage concept looks cool, but the mechanics aren't so well explained.
    I will agree I stuffed too much into sha form, I was hoping it would be a metamorphosis concept, how locks originally had it for 45 sec total as for reused/mixed/glyph talents, I did that in one of the final 90 talents. for the most part, I liked adding an energy regen ability (was always jealous of feral druids for having that)

    thanks for the critique, and sorry you didn't like it
    was fanbased as posted
    Last edited by The_Butcher; 2013-04-24 at 11:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphta
    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  5. #5
    It looked as though there were some neat ideas in there! I really liked the idea of Hostage and Poison Bomb. Those felt very rogue-y.
    But yeah, I don't think these talents would work out all that well in practice. There's some very cookie-cutter choices in there, and a lot of abilities on the same tier that accomplish very different effects. Plus stuff like Sha Form has a bit too much going on for a single talent, it'd be a nightmare to balance!

  6. #6
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    It looked as though there were some neat ideas in there! I really liked the idea of Hostage and Poison Bomb. Those felt very rogue-y.
    But yeah, I don't think these talents would work out all that well in practice. There's some very cookie-cutter choices in there, and a lot of abilities on the same tier that accomplish very different effects. Plus stuff like Sha Form has a bit too much going on for a single talent, it'd be a nightmare to balance!
    Sha-form would be a nightmare, all of this was pen/paper. and I'm sure looking at the text wall is a tad intimidating ^^;
    Poison Bomb I felt would be an upgrade for smoke bomb, even moreso that you can place it at a targetted location similar to death and decay.
    what options felt cookie-cutter? when I made this talent build I was trying to give hard decisions and remove most of the passive abilities.

    My inspiration for this, was primarily because Hit & Run was never implemented past a PTR, so I replaced burst of speed with it (was never a big fan of that ability, all I felt it was good for was an energy dump to move faster across a BG) after that, I looked into what rogue abilities had also been forgotten/scapped, which included Hunger for Blood, Ghostly Strike, and the old versions of shadowstep/cheat death
    Last edited by The_Butcher; 2013-04-24 at 11:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphta
    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  7. #7
    I like a lot of your ideas and how you named the talents. The balance among the talents, however, is not very fair. The sha talent looks interesting, it reminds me a bit of metamorphosis but it seems to have to effects for just one talent.

    One thing though, if you look at your talent tree and compare it to the current one, yours is without a doubt more rogue-ish. I mean whipcoil, why hasnt blizz thought of that one yet?
    ~

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    I love Hostage so much, so very, very much.
    Hi! I'm a highly educated slut, humanist/feminist/egalitarian, gun owner and godless heathen.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharlok View Post
    I like a lot of your ideas and how you named the talents. The balance among the talents, however, is not very fair. The sha talent looks interesting, it reminds me a bit of metamorphosis but it seems to have to effects for just one talent.

    One thing though, if you look at your talent tree and compare it to the current one, yours is without a doubt more rogue-ish. I mean whipcoil, why hasnt blizz thought of that one yet?
    Haven't really balanced them at all tbh. As for the sha talent, it was ment to be just that. Metamorphosis for rogues, a 3min CD that lasts 45sec to go hand and glove with bloodlust effects, currently it is extremely inbalanced, and I'm unsure how to re-arrange the talents if I was to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    I love Hostage so much, so very, very much.
    As mentioned in the actual Link, Hostage was a stolen concept from another user making rogue talents, I to love the ability I only changed the icon. I gave him full credibility in the link, but doubt if he has an mmo-champion acct
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphta
    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Butcher View Post
    http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=556001

    So I made this purely fanbased custom talent calculator for rogues for the next expansion, originally chose the link from Death-Knight-6-0-The-Proposed-Redesign by Clash1.

    I added a few forgotten rogue abilities, a killshot/execute ability, buffed a good handful of moves, and even stole another concept move from someone else who was working on the rogue talent calculator (all credit was mentioned in the link) I am posting it here on MMO-Champion for any critique, questions or comments, etc.

    Note: if a talent is too long to read, double clicking it will allow it to stay in place

    - Cheers The_Butcher
    I really liked whipcoil, energy focus, the newely revamped ghostly strike, and hit and run ideas for rogues. You should suggest these on the rogue forums on the wow website. They are really good ideas!

  11. #11
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentile911 View Post
    I really liked whipcoil, energy focus, the newely revamped ghostly strike, and hit and run ideas for rogues. You should suggest these on the rogue forums on the wow website. They are really good ideas!
    Glad you like them! Hit and Run was originally a talent on the PTR, it never made it live. you can view the ability on youtube im sure.
    my friends are fans of the talent tree as well, I may post it on the wow forums in time, for now I primarily want people to view it here, I find more trolls on the wow forums, while people with actual critique for better or worse on this forum.
    Your welcome to post it on the wow forum if you'd like, idc if you give me credit all I ask is you give Alexand3r AKA DragonHeart992 credit for the hostage ability
    Last edited by The_Butcher; 2013-04-25 at 10:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphta
    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  12. #12
    Like the concepts of Poison Bomb and Hostage, though not necessarily for talents. The rest I'm not a fan of. Too many rehashed abilites, i.e. Hidden Knife is literally just glyphed Shdaow Word: Death. 90 tier is just way too complicated, fun perhaps, but far too many aspects to consider. On an unrelated note, <3 your Avater and DDL.

  13. #13
    Most of the things in there look extremely OP and mostly non-necessary.

    Last tier talents look more a "get everything we already have into here so we can free up talent spaces".

    Talents should be something a player would take because they are cool, not because they are OP. And they should be fashioned in a way that taking any one of them will provide similar results, especially in terms of dps.

  14. #14
    Your scheme is problematic. Current talent tiers are designed so that each tier has a certain focus. You can pick 1 of 3 mobility talents on one tier, 1 of 3 dps talents on another tier, 1 of 3 survivability talents on another, which gives players the choice between 3 different forms of something or other, allowing them to take what suits their playstyle. They specifically did it this way, because they knew that if you put a clear DPS boost(or clear HPS boost for healers) alongside 2 choices that aren't direct boosts to dps(or healing), nobody isn't going to take the talent that specifically buffs their role. Here you have stuff mixed all over the place. Tier 1 has a self heal, an attack, and an energy regen talent(on a 30 sec CD no less)? I can already tell you, pretty much every PvE rogue(and I suspect most PvP ones too) are gonna take Energy Focus. Tier 6 has a survivability talent, a big DPS talent, and utility(aka lets roll like 6 glyphs into one) talent? Tier 6 for example, pretty much all rogues doing group content(and most NOT doing group content, for that matter) are gonna take the Sha thing. Tier 5, all rogues doing ANY group content are gonna be pretty much *required* to take the Poison Bomb unless there's a boss that does some kind of large non-avoidable damage that can be redirected through Hostage(which based on the few boss abilities that a warrior can reflect or a DK can Dark Sim, will be very few), assuming Hostage would even works on bosses. Even with some talents that are well designed and not too OP, I shouldn't be able to look at the talents and immediately see a specific one that will be the best choice, regardless of spec, regardless of encounter, 9/10 times.

  15. #15
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcall View Post
    Your scheme is problematic. Current talent tiers are designed so that each tier has a certain focus. You can pick 1 of 3 mobility talents on one tier, 1 of 3 dps talents on another tier, 1 of 3 survivability talents on another, which gives players the choice between 3 different forms of something or other, allowing them to take what suits their playstyle. They specifically did it this way, because they knew that if you put a clear DPS boost(or clear HPS boost for healers) alongside 2 choices that aren't direct boosts to dps(or healing), nobody isn't going to take the talent that specifically buffs their role. Here you have stuff mixed all over the place. Tier 1 has a self heal, an attack, and an energy regen talent(on a 30 sec CD no less)? I can already tell you, pretty much every PvE rogue(and I suspect most PvP ones too) are gonna take Energy Focus. Tier 6 has a survivability talent, a big DPS talent, and utility(aka lets roll like 6 glyphs into one) talent? Tier 6 for example, pretty much all rogues doing group content(and most NOT doing group content, for that matter) are gonna take the Sha thing. Tier 5, all rogues doing ANY group content are gonna be pretty much *required* to take the Poison Bomb unless there's a boss that does some kind of large non-avoidable damage that can be redirected through Hostage(which based on the few boss abilities that a warrior can reflect or a DK can Dark Sim, will be very few), assuming Hostage would even works on bosses. Even with some talents that are well designed and not too OP, I shouldn't be able to look at the talents and immediately see a specific one that will be the best choice, regardless of spec, regardless of encounter, 9/10 times.
    Actually, thank you for this!
    I knew my talent build was ridiculously imbalanced regardless of the critique, but this summed it all up
    I'll re-arrange/remove and focus on individual tiers where the choices can benefit for all three stages of gameplay regardless of selection, PvE, PvP, and Situational
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphta
    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  16. #16
    its too much of a mish mash, current teirs are designed with a goal, this is a DPS teir, that is a survivorbility tier. you've combined everything, generally people will always pick the DPS talent =p

  17. #17
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipling View Post
    its too much of a mish mash, current teirs are designed with a goal, this is a DPS teir, that is a survivorbility tier. you've combined everything, generally people will always pick the DPS talent =p
    Sorry you didn't like it. I did re-arranging, tiers aside there weren't any individual abilities you were impressed with?
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphta
    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  18. #18
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    In the majority of cases, these are some really cool abilities, but they're not balanced at all.

    In tier one: Shuriken Toss sucks, Energy Focus will be irritating to use and Hidden Knife is beyond all of them due to it having no energy cost. I get what you were going with, it's a Shadow Word: Death style ability, which is nice, but we don't need it - Assassination has it's own execute as well, it doesn't need two.


    Tier two: Whipcoil needs a 1 minute cooldown, think about arena, having no CD on that ability let's you stun without impunity two of the three players and do an unstoppable peel. It's devastatingly op and this is not helped with the caveat that it replaces Cheap Shot.

    Hostage is freaking wonderful though, I'm actually sad now we don't have it!

    Tier 3: Hunger for Blood needs the passive removed, with it, it's a clear cut winner which also makes us a liability in PvE, I'd say that Deadly throw needs to be baselines with the interrupt requiring 4 or 5 combo points since it's horrible to see as a talent. Paralytic is fine.

    Tier 4: Seems fine, like it.

    Tier 5: Ghostly Strike! Bring that thing back! However, with the new feint, it's OP in your iteration - have increase your chance to dodge and I'm happy there.

    Tier 6: We'll get to sha form in a minute, for now, Poison Bomb. It's a poor DPS CD that gives dual benefit to both AoE and single target, something that should always be avoided.

    It pales in comparison to the other two, you should change it to something that modifies itself based upon your currently used non-lethal poision.

    Anticipation, great as ever, nothing to be said here - it's always needed serious competition.

    Sha Form - OK, it's OP. Not just slightly, but... Holy fuck it would beat every other talent on that board with ease. You've basically given the rogue:

    - Huge spamable AoE
    - Mass Dispel
    - Big AoE Knockback and heal

    That said, I love it's interaction with posions. Perhaps you could tune down the active side of the talent and emphasise the passive side of things, poisons have been too boring for too long. Shiv helped greatly with this and I would love if someone expanded upon it.
    I am the lucid dream
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  19. #19
    Dreadlord The_Butcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    In the majority of cases, these are some really cool abilities, but they're not balanced at all.

    In tier one: Shuriken Toss sucks, Energy Focus will be irritating to use and Hidden Knife is beyond all of them due to it having no energy cost. I get what you were going with, it's a Shadow Word: Death style ability, which is nice, but we don't need it - Assassination has it's own execute as well, it doesn't need two.


    Tier two: Whipcoil needs a 1 minute cooldown, think about arena, having no CD on that ability let's you stun without impunity two of the three players and do an unstoppable peel. It's devastatingly op and this is not helped with the caveat that it replaces Cheap Shot.

    Hostage is freaking wonderful though, I'm actually sad now we don't have it!

    Tier 3: Hunger for Blood needs the passive removed, with it, it's a clear cut winner which also makes us a liability in PvE, I'd say that Deadly throw needs to be baselines with the interrupt requiring 4 or 5 combo points since it's horrible to see as a talent. Paralytic is fine.

    Tier 4: Seems fine, like it.

    Tier 5: Ghostly Strike! Bring that thing back! However, with the new feint, it's OP in your iteration - have increase your chance to dodge and I'm happy there.

    Tier 6: We'll get to sha form in a minute, for now, Poison Bomb. It's a poor DPS CD that gives dual benefit to both AoE and single target, something that should always be avoided.

    It pales in comparison to the other two, you should change it to something that modifies itself based upon your currently used non-lethal poision.

    Anticipation, great as ever, nothing to be said here - it's always needed serious competition.

    Sha Form - OK, it's OP. Not just slightly, but... Holy fuck it would beat every other talent on that board with ease. You've basically given the rogue:

    - Huge spamable AoE
    - Mass Dispel
    - Big AoE Knockback and heal

    That said, I love it's interaction with posions. Perhaps you could tune down the active side of the talent and emphasise the passive side of things, poisons have been too boring for too long. Shiv helped greatly with this and I would love if someone expanded upon it.

    First of all thanks for the feedback, in response...
    - First Tier = Shuriken Toss I completely disagree with. I've loved ranged weapons on a rogue since BC, and was never able to "really" use them until this expansion, however I've had to wait until 90 to do so. I believed having it at level 15 option would be perfect. Energy Focus was 100% jealousy of feral druids and tiger's fury ability, as for the hidden knife talent my apologies it was meant to have an energy cost of 40 yet typo on my part and I was disastrously unaware assassination had an execute until I noticed the Dispatch ability on wowhead (Fail Rogue atm... /cry)

    - Second Tier = Whipcoil I have had my concerns with but only for sublety spec. it won't be able to be spammed otherwise, if you read the tooltip its meant to be exactly like cheapshot yet with a death grip style involved, you can't use it unless your in stealth. Again hostage was a stolen concept from another player i've credited I'm a huge fan of it as well, as for working on bosses I feel it could offer an alternative to protect the rogue. Similar to a dispersion/pally bubble. Where even if rogue is clung onto the boss, the damage the rogue takes from anything for that matter gets redirected to the boss.

    - Third Tier = Hunger for Blood I'm still uneasy if I like the mechanics for it. I miss the ability, but back then it was just a small damage boost if you have a bleed effect on (which in current content is specialized for sub) Deadly Throw was meant to be an interrupt if you have 3+ combo points, bad typo on my part.

    - Fourth Tier = Glad you liked it (and I at least got one tier equalized *whew*)

    - Fifth Tier = I missed ghostly strike as well! never felt the dodge did much unless macro'd with evasion, so I added damage reduction. As for Feint's damage reduction, its not in the talents at all, meaning non-existant in my fanbased version.

    - Sixth Tier = Poison Bomb I don't think I posted a damage meter aside from the percentage increase, Sha Form I am already 100% aware its disgustingly OP and I have done absolutely nothing at the moment to moderate or equalize it (unsure where to begin really) as mentioned I wanted it to be similar to demo form, susceptible to banish due to being an elemental, many fun temporary abilities, yet overall a DPS burst CD to go hand and glove with hero/bloodlust


    Thank you for your commentary and I'm glad you liked it =)
    Last edited by The_Butcher; 2013-04-25 at 09:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naphta
    The tank is the driver, healer is the fuel. And the DPS are the kids sitting in the back crying about if they're there yet. And this is coming from a DPS.

  20. #20
    Okay, the current iteration is better, in terms of the tiers. Some abilities still seem OP(Whipcoil is Death Grip and Cheap Shot in 1, with no CD? Seems a bit much. And Sha Form just still seems over the top.), and there's still a few talents I think should be moved around. Hunger for Blood is a clear cut DPS boost in any encounter where you can melee at all(for that matter, even if you're in some weird "ranged only" fight, HfB is the clear winner, since you can take Shuriken Toss for that fight and still benefit from HfB with it), so to have it on a tier with a stun talent, and a ranged interrupt/snare(both basically pvp talents that won't affect the majority of PvE), there's no way that any PvE rogue, again, regardless of spec or encounter won't select HfB over the other 2 talents. There are some changes that might make sense too...Paralytic Poison seems like a better fit with the tier 2 talents than Leeching Poison does...Leeching seems like it would fit better with the tier 5 talents, then, maybe put Ghostly Strike where Paralytic previously was. That way, you have a tier with 3 control talents(Paralytic, Hostage, and a hopefully toned down Whipcoil), a tier with 3 self-survival talents(Leeching, Cheat Death, and Combat Readiness), and, if you could maybe rework HfB(and add a little damage to DT, say, 75% weapon damage maybe), you'd have a tier with 3 attacks that also serve a second purpose(ranged attack that snares and interrupts, melee attack that also provides a defensive bonus, and whatever the altered HfB would do, maybe make it something like an attack that temporarily boosts your crit if it strikes a bleeding foe?)

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