The main difference is Heroics offer valid gear upgrades, while Challenge Mode gear is there to prove you're good enough to tackle them. Blizz tried to pursue the 'Normals are good enough' philosophy in Cata, harkening back to BC. The only quarter that didn't see huge sub bleeds was 4.3, and even then it picked back up after Dragon Soul overstayed its welcome.Here is the real question, why weren't Normal Dungeons "good enough" for "casuals" since you know, I'm being told that timed challenge modes are "good enough" for me.
In this case, bare bones you're 100% correct. When people are speaking out against grinds, we're talking about the sort of pointlessly-tedious grinding of... let's say Golden Lotus rep. And also note that the grindy nature of MoP rep factions has come under fire from many sources, and it's one I'm not going to defend because let's face it, that shit is boring. That's the sort of grind people like the OP are proposing to bring back and that's the sort of grind people are speaking out against.The thing is, "heroics" are now just a 5-10 minute aoe grind fest... where you just follow the tank to the boss, then AOE adds, then easily and without fear kill the boss. That is the epitome of grinding, yet people here are screaming "NO GRINDS NO GRINDS!"
If you're really such a pro, you would've finished the content long before the nerfs come in. So what do you care?
From the sound of it though, you're not a pro, you're just a casual who wants Blizzard to give him some kind of medal for being better than the other casuals.
There's a difference between making some parts of the game more challenging (not everything though) and making it so that only the people that spend their entire day playing WoW can get to the enjoyable parts.
I've played the game casually (1 raid night per week = heroic deathwing down with 15% buff) and hardcore (Realm First! Grand Crusader while ToGC was still current). I've raided in Vanilla and every expansion. I've had to form 5-man heroics without dungeon finder. I've had to pay a relatively large amount of gold just to ride a ground mount. I've gathered resist gear for resist fights. I've done attunements.
And after all of that, I still think that the game gets better and better with every expansion. Comparing Vanilla to the current game? You're damned right I don't like much of anything from the original! It was unbalanced, annoying, and plain old stupid. Hey, look, Paladins, Druids, priests and Shamans are healing classes! One progression raid night requires hundreds of flasks and perhaps thousands of potions! Bosses drop 4-5 pieces of loot to be shared between 40 people! Oh, and if a guildie quits, you have to run the replacement through every previous tier, despite the fact that you haven't run it in months, before they're worth anything.
I could keep going, but I doubt any of this will sink in.
Last edited by Belloc; 2013-04-26 at 12:00 AM.
I did my time, raided hardcore up to start of cataclsym. I remember the days of raiding tier 1, 5 days a week took over 16 months to complete tier 1 on my lock. I remember spending 1 to 2 hours finding a full 10 man team for scholomance after it went from 40 to 10 man, then spending up to 5 hours to complete it, all for exactly 34 runs to finally get my tier 0 head piece to match the set. All this while working full time and helping a casual guild on my alt. I would never play a game like this again. Anyway, I stopped raiding when I lost my job and was unemployed for 1.5 years, then had to take up 2 jobs to get back out of the hole. I was pleasantly surprised to be able to do 'any' kind of raiding again when LFR came out, I had given up completely and only let myself do a little PVP and Arena up until then. I'm STILL working 2 jobs and almost caught back up, I miss raiding hardcore but WoW really should update it's graphics, options, models and find new features from newer MMO's to incorporate. There is never a reason to go backwards and punish players for sticking with the same game for going on 9 years.
I was asking YOU why Normals aren;t good enough for that demographic? I remember what happened and what was said and nerfed. I've never been given a good reason as to WHY. Whats the problem with making Heroics harder than the current "7 minute aoe grind" it is now?
In any case you can't compare, because the game was simply newer then.
From the sound of it though, you are just a baddie who feel threatened by someone suggesting harder content. See? I can be overbearing and condescending too!
---------- Post added 2013-04-25 at 08:07 PM ----------
---------- Post added 2013-04-25 at 08:09 PM ----------
Please read more of my posts besides the first line.
---------- Post added 2013-04-25 at 08:10 PM ----------
It's gonna be a hard sell to the community, long story short. Very rarely has Blizzard been able to get away with taking an entire level of gameplay away from a chunk of the playerbase (the hardcores wasted no time in calling them out during Wrath for making easy 5-mans and making t7 easy on purpose, and casual players had no qualms about letting their wallets talk when Blizz made Heroics harder than they were in Wrath) for the enjoyment of a smaller subset of the player base (and keep in mind, just by being aware of and active on a fansite like MMO-C you and I are in the top 40% of all players by Blizz's numbers).I was asking YOU why Normals aren;t good enough for that demographic? I remember what happened and what was said and nerfed. I've never been given a good reason as to WHY. Whats the problem with making Heroics harder than the current "7 minute aoe grind" it is now?
From a gameplay standpoint, it's generally not awesome to have this level of gameplay you have a blast in one expac and have it wrenched away from you the next because some dudes posting on the official forums you've never heard of weren't having fun. That goes for both sides of the coin which is why I'm so supportive of MoP's multiple-levels approach to PvE endgame. From a financial standpoint it's usually a really bad idea to piss off droves of gamers in a pay-to-play game, as Blizz learned the hard way in Cataclysm and even back during the Year of ICC at the end of Wrath.
*Apparently my brain's still stuck in Cataclysm level cap with all the references that've been made to it (mostly by me). Oops!
Last edited by Thage; 2013-04-26 at 12:15 AM.
A lot of the things I wouldn't ever bring back. Mainly because I know that back then, if I had what I have now, I'd want it back then.
Seriously, I would of LOVED to fly anywhere back then, loved not to have to spend 10 minutes getting 2 people to a stone to summon, not having to, at first, only be capable of doing 2 heroics because the rest without a good tank were too hard (unless you did them with your guild). Seriously, heroics feeling heroic? Yeah, maybe I was the only one but I feel like the 'nostalgia crew' are the only people who say such things. in TBC you either hated not being able to do half of the heroics unless you were a raider (and not a kara raider all expansion) or you enjoyed the 'difficulty' where you did it with well geared players, or the only crutch was the games problems ie tanking shattered halls as a warrior. And for what? did you feel good because you could do heroics because you thought they were sooo harddd? Just for your emblems? You know the hardest thing about raiding in TBC? it wasn't the lack of websites telling you what to do. Hell, I don't remember ever visiting one, I remember youtube videos with text across the screen explaining fights. It was the mixture of a lack of knowledge about your class and about raids outside of kara, on top of how difficult it was to actually obtain gear outside of treating kara like a 5 man dungeon for 6 months. I just find people who talk about 'bringing out school difficulty' incredibly annoying when they don't seem to understand what made it so difficult.
If there is one thing I'd bring back it would be quick gearing through new 5 man heroics, so that I could have alt raids on the newest raid and gear alts up, in case people might like to switch mains. So sick of doing content I've had to do 6 months ago on an alt and spending a month or two doing it.
That being said I do very much like your ideas OP...a long with a few other peoples
What you haven't answered is WHY? Whats wrong with harder heroics? Why don't people like more challenging content than the current 5-10 minute AoE "heroics?"
I can only speak for Callei the MMO-C poster in this regard: it's a combination of burnout and playing games to blow off stress. I raided hardcore in Vanilla for the tail end of Vanilla and got stuck in a Kara feeder guild in BC. I got burned out hard and barely touched raids at all in Wrath outside a bit of Naxx10 on my DK and funruns in outdated raid content. Prior to 4.3 I didn't really do any endgame PvE in Cata because the Heroics were hell on my PC and the raids required more gear and performance than my laptop could manage; in 4.3 I got a much better PC and went about doing the HoT 5-mans and LFR, and ended up falling in love with the game again (for much of Cata I basically came and went depending on how good the RP was on Wyrmrest Accord; that coupled with financial troubles didn't leave me with much room for WoW in the budget 'til things stabilized and I fell in love with the game again). Also worth noting, in 2008 I was in two car accidents that have measurably impacted my response time, so I was basically sunk in regards to even going into Normal raiding without being a body on the floor.What you haven't answered is WHY? Whats wrong with harder heroics? Why don't people like more challenging content than the current 5-10 minute AoE "heroics?"
Sob story's over, on to the meat of it!
Come MoP, there's a lot I wasn't so jazzed about (aforementioned Golden Lotus rep, though oddly I had no problem with The Tillers, the ground mounts-to-90 thing, and the Alliance-Horde slugfest taking front and center stage after the initial 5.0 storyline). Scenarios are a blast to blow through. I'll be honest--I like the easy Heroics. I'm biased here and I'll be honest about that. But I was also glad to hear about Blizz's plans to bring in Challenge Mode for people that weren't jazzed about them. It was a good middle ground for both of us to have our cake and eat it. Between Scenarios, the easier 5-mans, and LFR, I've got my level of gameplay, and there are other levels for other players. If Heroics became harder again, that's 1/3 of my endgame gone and while that opens that portion of the game up to a new demographic, it leaves me in the dust, which brings back memories of BC and Cata (where I generally felt not-awesome and leveled a bajillion alts to kill time between roleplaying and, in BC, raid night).
I like the way the difficulty levels are right now, for those that want a bit more of a challenge in their raids, you can go do the Heroic version, for those that want a bit more challenge in their dungeons, you can do challenge mode, for those that want a bit more challenge in their scenarios you will have Heroic scenarios, for those that want more challenge in pvp you have Arena and rated BG's.
All the standard raids/dungeons/scenarios/BG's are great for those of us that prioritise our real life responsibilities over our hobbies (everyones different folks, some have more than others, no ones better than anyone else here!) We have content that is rewarding but not as time consuming as the more difficult content. Meaning we can progress without feeling we need to be online X hours a day to see the benefits.
I don't really understand why folks can't just enjoy the content thats there for them. People seem to want to make everyone do the same stuff and be able to put the same time/effort into the game, when thats just silliness and pretty much not gonna work, Some folks have alot of free time, some don't.
And you are rewarded differently for whichever path you choose. I'm fine with not getting the best gear/mounts/titles in game. But wanting to force everyone to put in more time into the game just because they have the time to do so is a little narrow minded imo.
Blizz are trying to make sure every playstyle has something and I'd say they are doing a good job, sure some tweaks could be made, but I'm happy with the road they are going.