A Complete Reimagining of Society

[Fernii]

My dream society is that nobody would be a zealot. People could argue, but they should also know when to stop, so that we don't have things escalating to the point of "EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH MY RELIGION/POINT/IDEAS SHOULD BE BEHEADED!" and then we have a war.

But since we can't stop people from being that way, the only way you could really have a perfect society is if it were dystopian. Much like what you're proposing, except I wouldn't give the people so many freedoms.

But I wouldn't want to live in that perfect society, either. Too much perfection would just make it boring, wouldn't it? I'm glad my death will come before the future gets too controlled.

Eh. I don't think you would live long enough to see it get boring. You could still enjoy as many of the things in life as you wanted, but still die early enough to have an unfinished bucket list. Peace would be nice though.

[Vurdah]

"Any politician found proposing a bill to challenge any of these five would be charged with political corruption."
Where is the "Freedom of Speech" at in this statement?

[Fernii]

More fun talking about how we can take concrete steps to improve our current society, than to fantasies about a dream society that's almost certainly going to not work as intended, IMHO. There's far too many wishful thinking and assumptions built into the latter.

Yes I'm a killjoy.

There's no fun in being a killjoy though. You make a single tear roll down my cheek. Just one though. :*(

---------- Post added 2013-04-25 at 03:56 AM ----------

"Any politician found proposing a bill to challenge any of these five would be charged with political corruption."
Where is the "Freedom of Speech" at in this statement?

I misworded that. Less proposing, more actually pushing it through.

[Hypro]

Ok i read all that and i can agree with some points... But on point i dont agree with is the death sentence... What happens if i am framed for murder... And then 2 weeks later im shot by a firing squad? Why do you think so many inmates are on death row for YEARS on end.... One of the main reason there isnt a death sentence in Australia is the last person to be sentenced by hanging was later found innocent.

I do agree that there are some crimes that should be put to death. But with evidence beyond resonable doubt...

[Deleted]

In many ways vague, in many ways unrealistic and in many ways nothing new that isn't being done. No (after your next post, barely any) mention and consideration of economics.

Conclusion: Boring and uselss

[Deleted]

Basically back to babylonia plus the right to bear firearms...
Yeh that'll turn out well...

[Fernii]

Getting framed for murder would be really piss-poor luck.

I just downed a few lortabs since I just had surgery, so I'm about to be out. Peace errrbody. You guys should discuss things so I wake up to an interesting read.

[Pull My Finger]

Wow, let's see. A rigorous, outright maniacal stance on death penalty, complete and arbitrary heteronomy of education, more than questionable "freedoms" of having hard drugs and guns handed out to you, and an overall unbelievably paternizing, condescending and mercilessly enforced set of morals, ethics and ideas of good conduct.

Sounds more like a maniac state that terrorizes its own people - pretty sect-like and like a cross between Anton LaVey's satanism and the Third Reich - than a "free" society to me.

[Hooked]

Merica, love it or leave it

[Deleted]

All drugs would be legalized and decriminalized.

If you don't make laws against driving while stoned or something like that you'll have a problem.

Prostitution would be legalized and decriminalized.

If you don't make laws for checking of the prostitutes against diseases you'll get a problem.

Many crimes would be removed, but a harsher more free punishment system would be put in place. The only remaining major crimes would be murder, theft, and political corruption.

Like what crimes would be removed? Also, no rape? So rape would be ok in your world? What about scamming? It's not truly theft, what about companies who write different ingredients on stuff they produce then what they put in? What of work laws, so companies could not turn you into slaves?

The government would be run by critical thinking intellectuals. Democracy is in my opinion a broken system. Sure, the Average Joe should govern himself, but on a larger scale, the Average Joe is an idiot. They don't honestly know what is the best for them on a global level. I am still unsure of how those put in power would be decided, and so this section is very iffy. They would be the voice of the people though. They would interact with other countries to make treaties, trade, and so forth.

and how do you elect those intellectuals?

5. The Right to Bear Firearms (assault rifles, shotguns, handguns, and so on)

No.

[Cjeska]

Abortion would be fully legalized.

What do you mean with "fully"? Up until the 9th month? 8th, 7th? Even those in favor of abortion have to recognize that it gets creepy after a certain stage of fetus development.

The government would be run by critical thinking intellectuals.

That's what these people already think they are :-) Arrogant Intellectuals are actually the root of the problem, not the solution. Here is something on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wln6lNTxVpY

Your ideas seem to be more on a libertarian side, but with a little bit hypocracy here (abortion) and a little bit of totalitarianism there ("political corruption") sprinkeled in, it's doomed to fail. I wonder what you would do to people who disagree with you in a society like this if you were the one in charge.

[Sagittaria]

What do you mean with "fully"? Up until the 9th month? 8th, 7th? Even those in favor of abortion have to recognize that it gets creepy after a certain stage of fetus development.

Not "have to", more like "most definitely believes". (almost) nobody is in favour of willy nilly late term abortions.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Society cannot magically become better by introducing some system that sounds good on paper, but is next to impossible to use in practice. You have to be practical if you want achieve a better society and you need to compromise at times to be able to get closer to that goal. Things have improved immensely since mankind started building civilizations and as science progresses to help provide more tools to build these civilizations, we will keep getting better at it.

Also, just after reading a fraction of your ideas I just don't see how this is an improvement or even practical. The amount of "freedom" you wish to give citizens are just way too much, especially since not every individual will take the same amount of responsibility to be able to keep order and security. Society needs a balance between freedom and law and security to even function properly. Some things need more freedom, others need more laws and security. For instance, drugs could be legalized, but you would also need laws and a system that protect consumers so they do not get used by the drug market (like not being able to buy deadly drugs with unknown concentrations that can kill you by an overdose).

So no, I do not want to live in your type of society, since the system is just bad and would mostly benefit people wanting to use other people.

---------- Post added 2013-04-25 at 01:16 PM ----------

What do you mean with "fully"? Up until the 9th month? 8th, 7th? Even those in favor of abortion have to recognize that it gets creepy after a certain stage of fetus development.

Agreed. An abortion being done that late into the pregnancy would be irresponsible and no one (generally speaking) who are for abortion would support that.

[Sam the Wiser]

I feel like a lot of people will die under this proposed plan.

[TLNH]

Ideally we wouldn't need a Government because people are rational, intelligent, and loving animals that are capable of governing themselves. Which means not acting out of rational to harm others or the environment. Ideally society as we know it would not exist because we would become a people of learning where work is obsolete because of free energy, then we would simply concentrate our efforts of construction to star ships, renewable earth systems, and so on. A human born and growing would live a life where they would have the means to do literally anything, not just be stuck in a grunge of 9 to 5 but to either become a scholar/scientist/explorer/artist anyway you have it. It would be much like the fantasies of sci-fi, TNG, so on. Real human progression but to achieve this first we must overcome several obstacles...

[Rukh]

No, this sounds like a terrible ideological misadventure. You're basically talking the same myopic fantasy society that communism tried to make, only with unworkable capitalist fantasies instead of unworkable socialist fantasies. In the end it's ideological fanaticism that will always end up with a "vanguard" party that feels the need to impose the ideology and ends up being a tyrannical dictatorship, "for the good of the cause". Remember a fundamental tenant of communism was lack of government too and we see how awesome that worked out. "Don't worry, it's only in the short term to enact the systems, then we'll leave you alone, I swear!" No coincidence that countries who try such things, whether it's the communists, or the islamicists, or the capitalists permanently name their armies revolutionary guards, and are in a constant state of "revolution" for a hundred years.

[TLNH]

Unworkable why? We have the means and science to create these marvelous weapons of destruction and surveillance that come second to none, the ability to travel deep into space with unmanned paths...This is foolish thinking. The use of words "communism" "socialism" this is the thinking that blockades real human progression. We have opportunity and a gift for powerful creativity and incredible learning...this is foolish if we do not open our eyes to the realistic future of self destruction on this current path of stupidity and draconian systems we will fail as a species. We have the means and the earth has the current resources right now to support all of humanity and all other living creatures of the world right now. There is a world wide conspiracy happening right now. We have the means and the technology to enter a new and golden age where instead of having capitalism called socialism and socialism called capitalism we can merely have 1 thing and that is to just be instead. No governments, no markets, none of this. This is a critical time for mankind where we have the opportunity to make the right decision for us and all other living things. hope it is not wasted with meaningless "it can not be, this is a fantasy"

[Rukh]

Unworkable why? We have the means and science to create these marvelous weapons of destruction and surveillance that come second to none, the ability to travel deep into space with unmanned paths...This is foolish thinking. The use of words "communism" "socialism" this is the thinking that blockades real human progression. We have opportunity and a gift for powerful creativity and incredible learning...this is foolish if we do not open our eyes to the realistic future of self destruction on this current path of stupidity and draconian systems we will fail as a species. We have the means and the earth has the current resources right now to support all of humanity and all other living creatures of the world right now. There is a world wide conspiracy happening right now. We have the means and the technology to enter a new and golden age where instead of having capitalism called socialism and socialism called capitalism we can merely have 1 thing and that is to just be instead. No governments, no markets, none of this. This is a critical time for mankind where we have the opportunity to make the right decision for us and all other living things. hope it is not wasted with meaningless "it can not be, this is a fantasy"

You're comparing apples and utopias broseph.

By your same logic, we should go ahead and give communism a try again, because hey, we landed a man on the moon!

[Shadowmelded]

Unworkable why? We have the means and science to create these marvelous weapons of destruction and surveillance that come second to none, the ability to travel deep into space with unmanned paths...This is foolish thinking. The use of words "communism" "socialism" this is the thinking that blockades real human progression. We have opportunity and a gift for powerful creativity and incredible learning...this is foolish if we do not open our eyes to the realistic future of self destruction on this current path of stupidity and draconian systems we will fail as a species. We have the means and the earth has the current resources right now to support all of humanity and all other living creatures of the world right now. There is a world wide conspiracy happening right now. We have the means and the technology to enter a new and golden age where instead of having capitalism called socialism and socialism called capitalism we can merely have 1 thing and that is to just be instead. No governments, no markets, none of this. This is a critical time for mankind where we have the opportunity to make the right decision for us and all other living things. hope it is not wasted with meaningless "it can not be, this is a fantasy"

If you want to make a thread basically rewording everything that's in zeitgeist down to the letter then go ahead, but the discussion was quite interesting despite starting from a kind of ridiculous fantasy world and the OP seemed to genuinely update his stance on things as the thread progressed so could you maybe stop parroting Peter Joseph?

[Vasti]

You are making it seem way easier than it is. Managing society, economy is a lot harder than your simple rules make it out to be.

Would impersonating an officer be a crime? No theft, murder or political corruption there.
Would giving wrong information to customers be punishable?
What about hiring someone to do the actual killing?
If a driver causes the dead of his fellow passenger (driver was drunk) be punishable? (fellow passenger was aware of the dangers involved with a drunk driver)
Is Tax evasion a crime?
Is destroying someone elses property a crime?
Is lying under oath a crime? And if so, what would stop a person who is facing execution if found guilty from lying anyway?

Also, what do you hope to 'fix' with your changes?

You need to think about it more