1. #1061
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I do miss the class specific quests. For example, Shaman used to travel to different parts of the world to gather their elemental totems. Now you just get them as you level.
    That I can agree was cool, tho not all class quests were good. I admit I hope that Blizzard will use the scenario system to introduce some more class specific content some day - it seems perfect for the job

  2. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    You left out the upgrade to Dungeon Set Two questline, which was awesome, and some of the most fun I had in the game. The Sunken Temple class quests were pretty fun, and what I remember of the Warlock and Pally mount quests was pretty fun, too. (Sceptre of the Shifting Sands was awesome as well, but I can see that not every could easily do it.) And while I think you're a little too harsh on some of the quests (I didn't mind questing to different zones, profession items usually made some thematic sense, and the big quests usually did give decent rewards) I do have to agree that itemization was pretty... eclectic (and that's being generous ).
    Tier 0.5 was a good thing, but it came pretty late, and difficulty balance was a mess considering it was supposedly intended for blue geared groups. 45 minute baron? Lord Valthalak? Ouch. Granted, it turned the horrible crap that was dungeon set 1 into actually useful items and was pretty big of a chain, so eh.

    If anything, I forgot about Onyxia fight in Stormwind. Now that was a cool little thing that never really happened again. Nowadays, if you get fight with group of "elites", they are usually normal level mobs with artifically inflated health and easily avoidable abilities. Getting elite NPC on your side either result in him two shotting everything (say, Varian in first Shieldwall quest) or just being there for dialogue and pretending to do damage. (5.2 scenarios... Vereesa, you're so damn weak).

    Or, hell, handing Onyxia/Nefarian's head and having city wide yell from NPC praising your heroic effort. Last time something like that happened was with Algalon. I guess they had to remove it because of LFR, but still... Oh well.

  3. #1063
    Herald of the Titans Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatboll View Post
    Why is it when someone says an old version of WoW is better than the current version everyone says it's just nostalgia? But, when someone says Final Fantasy VI or VII is the best Final Fantasy game it's true? Why isn't that just nostalgia? Shouldn't Final Fantasy XIII or XIV or whatever version they're on be the best Final Fantasy ever?

    Why is liking old WoW nostalgia, but it's not nostalgia for other games? Just wondering.
    Because there's 90% chance it is nostalgia. In fact with any older game we used to love at a time we will experience a lot of nostalgia. The problem with WoW tho is that we can't really go back to the old version therefor we are unable to check how much nostalgia it is there (private servers are nothing compared to real thing - even the old real thing).

    The other thing is that WoW is very complex and heavily focused on the massive multiplayer part. Our perception of the game is influenced by so many elements some of which aren't that much dependant on the game design itself. The reason why WoW objectivly is evolving for better lays in the fact that it offers more and more for various types of people and this is something completly separate from how you experience it in any particular moment. The fact is, it lets more people experience it in more enjoyable ways then before. Also, argument that people give for what is wrong in WoW are often objectivly invalid - mostly because they are modiefied by subjective memory from the past which for sure has an element of nostalgia. I do believe that people enjoyed a lot some aspects of the game back in the game but many bring illogical argument of why that was better.

  4. #1064
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    LOL. So players find more "suitable" content (LFR) and stop doing "less suitable" content (normal) ... that is bad how?
    People who would have guild raided will find that it's a waste of time simply because LFR is easier.

    You have to fight the game itself to make a good guild, and that's not fair.

  5. #1065
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilija View Post
    The other thing is that WoW is very complex and heavily focused on the massive multiplayer part.
    Is it really though?

    To me it feels as if throughout the expansions they've tried to make it more and more into a single player and zoned instance game.

    The multiplayer parts feel no different from Guild Wars 2 where you zone into an instance with a few people, often people you wont be able to meet elsewhere in the game anymore (because they're from another realm).

    It has come to the point that because of how uncomitted the "MMO" part of WoW is that people have started to call games like SimCity an MMO game too, after all you are online and you sometimes can get grouped up with other complete online strangers...
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  6. #1066
    LFR might be a mixed bag for many, but anyone who has fond memories of 40-man raiding never regularly organized and led 40-man raids.

    The best raids were the ones where I was only mildly irritated throughout the night, and the worst raids were practically guild-killers. Mountains of aggravation caused by people looking to cause strife, always having to watch for slackers, the near impossible task of managing the schedules of 40 different people so attendance was always a crap shoot... I miss those things like I miss the Bush presidency.

  7. #1067
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Is it really though?

    To me it feels as if throughout the expansions they've tried to make it more and more into a single player and zoned instance game.

    The multiplayer parts feel no different from Guild Wars 2 where you zone into an instance with a few people, often people you wont be able to meet elsewhere in the game anymore (because they're from another realm).

    It has come to the point that because of how uncomitted the "MMO" part of WoW is that people have started to call games like SimCity an MMO game too, after all you are online and you sometimes can get grouped up with other complete online strangers...
    Bingo. There's now a fine line between MMO and regular Online games by today's standards.
    Today's market doesn't have time for MMO's really yet they want to play one.
    I think it stems from people feeling the need to accomplish everything in game which is kind of wrong for a true MMO.

    Each new addition to the game like LFR is really making the world of the game smaller.

  8. #1068
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Today's market doesn't have time for MMO's really yet they want to play one.
    Todays market has all the time it needs to play an MMO. It's far less of a time issue, and far more of an immediate gratification issue.

    Folks in Cata who play this game a good amount had 4-5 alts vp capping every week, all of them raid geared. (some still do probably) Game changes and suddenly alts become a bit more time consuming to gear, and suddenly the community "doesn't have time! too grindy!"

    It's complete bullshit.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  9. #1069
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Todays market has all the time it needs to play an MMO.
    Care to elaborate on where you got that piece of info from?

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  10. #1070
    I am Murloc! Ryngo Blackratchet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Care to elaborate on where you got that piece of info from?
    One would hope it came from common sense. I mean, when one chooses to play something like an MMO, they're under the understanding that they'll be gearing and progressing much slower than someone with more time to play, right? It's not like they actually think they deserve massive rewards for minimal effort simply because of their scheduling conflicts and flawed priority system, right?

    Oh, wait.
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
    So many people are gonna die.

  11. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Care to elaborate on where you got that piece of info from?
    Common sense is where I got it.

    What's changed about life in the past decades that suddenly makes leisure time suddenly less available? Folks have always had kids, jobs, families, etc. Leisure activities are chosen by many, and some activities are sacrificed for the sake of others, depending on their deemed worth.

    Not a hard concept.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  12. #1072
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    What's changed about life in the past decades that suddenly makes leisure time suddenly less available? Folks have always had kids, jobs, families, etc. Leisure activities are chosen by many, and some activities are sacrificed for the sake of others, depending on their deemed worth.
    What did change? For starters, the market of the MMOs. Pre-WoW MMOs had much less subs than WoW, especially in Europe (Asia and Russia are a different story). So, effectively, the MMO players represented a fringe of the population, a fringe of students and "basement dwellers" with a lot of time to spare. Today, MMO players are more representative of the other parts of the population.

    Second, we're in a recession since 2008, and this has some consequences too. People who are working are thinking twice before committing to stuff such as raiding, because the impact is not neutral. Life costs go up up up for years now, while the salaries do not necessarily do so.

    Third, social networks happened.

    Fourth, and most important thing, that changed is the understanding of the fact that leisure time must be that - leisure time. Not "doing totally unfun stuff" time. You may call it instant gratification, but it's really what leisure time is about. Back before the computers era, you went to a football (= soccer) field with friends to play football. You did not go to a football field to gather bugs from the grass for 4 hours before finally playing for 1 hour. You played chess with friends - you didn't spend 4 hours polishing the pieces before playing. In other words, people realised that leisure time must be leisure.

    Although, actually, that's not totally correct, because most people always realized that, except again for a tiny fringe of "basement dwellers" (I hate that term but it is quite accurate). It's just that this tiny fringe - which is actually limited in time to people born let's say between 1975 and 1985 - moved out of the "gaming age". And there is no replacement, because people are no longer buying the grinding philosophy.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  13. #1073
    I am Murloc! Ryngo Blackratchet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Fourth, and most important thing, that changed is the understanding of the fact that leisure time must be that - leisure time. Not "doing totally unfun stuff" time. .
    Woah. I hate to keep jumping in but you need to realize what you're saying. This "unfun stuff" is the blood of an MMO and has always been so. When you find something like this unfun, you go play something else. Sure life is changing but when the hell did that little concept change? You don't show up into an entire genre and demand that it be more fitting for your freetime and enjoyment.

    You don't just roll into Battlefield 3 and demand that they make aiming more automated. If you don't find aiming in a FPS fun, you'd play something else. So why is it that everyone keeps jumping into the most time consuming genre to ever grace videogame history and demand that it be more schedule friendly?

    This must be what going mad feels like.
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
    So many people are gonna die.

  14. #1074
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Woah. I hate to keep jumping in but you need to realize what you're saying. This "unfun stuff" is the blood of an MMO and has always been so. When you find something like this unfun, you go play something else. Sure life is changing but when the hell did that little concept change? You don't show up into an entire genre and demand that it be more fitting for your freetime and enjoyment.
    Calling a phenomenon limited in time between let's say 1991 (it's a somewhat arbitrary start - release of NWN) and 2004 (no grindy MMOs went out since except Rift) is stupid. You need to replace things in a historical and social context. So you should not say "This "unfun stuff" is the blood of an MMO and has always been so.", but "The early developers of MMORPGs thought that this stuff was the blood of the MMOs".

    Now, why did this happen? Well, because the first computer devs and their target audience were looking for a substitute to reality, much like the table-top games were before them. The goal was to alienate reality in a fantasy world. However, there is a significant difference between those two: the use of the computer. Computers became more and more common for reasons that were somewhat (but not just) related to games, and more and more people started to want to play games, including MMORPGs. At the same time, the cost of development of a video game rose exponentially, and it was no longer doable to build an MMO in your garage - so, you had to broaden your playerbase a bit.

    Consequently, willingly or unwillingly, the developers had to adjust the very concept of an MMORPG. Of course, it didn't happen overnight - it took them several years of resistance, but they gradually realized that people want to actually play the game, not do stupid stuff instead. Again, as I say, most people (except the 1st generation of MMO players) knew that, only some of them didn't. There are of course other factors, such as the emergence of consoles and now mobile games.

    But the central concept is this: you cannot defend a concept of doing unfun stuff if you want to interest a somewhat broad audience these days. The costs are just not the same as in 1991 or even 2004.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  15. #1075
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    But the central concept is this: you cannot defend a concept of doing unfun stuff if you want to interest a somewhat broad audience these days. The costs are just not the same as in 1991 or even 2004.
    And that's what it boils down to. The likes of Justin Bieber/Lady Gaga command a huge segment of the music industry/market despite being poor quality artists. In the same way, Blizzard wants to command an even greater segment of the gaming industry/market by appealing to the lowest common denominator.

    Sure, it sucks for those who got them to the point they're at today when WoW was a fundamentally different/better game; but Blizzard is a business first, after all.
    "Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you." - Grand Admiral Proudmoore

  16. #1076
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitmannoob View Post
    Maybe they just want those drops so they can stop doing mindless crap and have more free time to raid normal or player vs player. Gear should honestly come from a point system like conquest gear. It makes no sense that I could run ICC for 2 months but only get 1 upgrade. Which got me sat it was stupid.
    This is how RPGs in general have worked. RNG is a part of them, especially games that have loot drops as part of the gearing system.

    If the "majority" of the fan base dislikes so many things about the game, why do they even play? "i'll be damned if painting fences isn't fun for me by the time I'm done complaining!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    I'd swear you're disagreeing with me, but nothing you said contradicts anything I said.
    You said you can't figure out the best talent to pick in the new system, I said, you clearly can in most instances. (Similar to how old talents worked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  17. #1077
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    What did change? For starters, the market of the MMOs.
    The perception of the players who make up the market has has changed, as I originally stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Pre-WoW MMOs had much less subs than WoW, especially in Europe (Asia and Russia are a different story). So, effectively, the MMO players represented a fringe of the population, a fringe of students and "basement dwellers" with a lot of time to spare. Today, MMO players are more representative of the other parts of the population.
    And as I stated above, the people playing this game now don't play less than they did 5,6 years ago, they simply do more with more characters. So that isn't the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Second, we're in a recession since 2008, and this has some consequences too. People who are working are thinking twice before committing to stuff such as raiding, because the impact is not neutral. Life costs go up up up for years now, while the salaries do not necessarily do so.
    If the economy had an impact on the game, you'd see it reflected in subs, not in the amount of time it takes to accomplish a given task. Cata sub drops certainly do coincide with economical issues, but the community seems to almost unanimously feel that the content cause the small exodus. So money isn't the issue either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Third, social networks happened.
    What does this have to do with anything? Social networking has been around longer than WoW has, so that is rather irrelevant. Unless you're trying to say that folks spend their leisure time facebooking rather than playing video games, which is a larger issue than just this game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Fourth, and most important thing, that changed is the understanding of the fact that leisure time must be that - leisure time. Not "doing totally unfun stuff" time. You may call it instant gratification, but it's really what leisure time is about. Back before the computers era, you went to a football (= soccer) field with friends to play football. You did not go to a football field to gather bugs from the grass for 4 hours before finally playing for 1 hour. You played chess with friends - you didn't spend 4 hours polishing the pieces before playing. In other words, people realised that leisure time must be leisure.
    Chess and football at local levels are awful games, with absolutely no reward for a win. (sarcasm). Actually, video games in general, especially consoles, have had a much bigger impact on such activities over decades than just WoW itself. So that isn't it either. And getting good, progressing, or accomplishing anything (whatever you want to call it) in either of your example activities requires a lot of time and effort, and doing a lot of un-fun, often repetitive stuff. Studying and memorizing chess strats likely isn't considered 'fun' in and of itself, nor is football practice. They are means to a hopefully gratifying end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Although, actually, that's not totally correct, because most people always realized that, except again for a tiny fringe of "basement dwellers" (I hate that term but it is quite accurate). It's just that this tiny fringe - which is actually limited in time to people born let's say between 1975 and 1985 - moved out of the "gaming age". And there is no replacement, because people are no longer buying the grinding philosophy.
    But millions do buy the grinding philosophy, because that's the essence OF an MMORPG, especially a sub based one. If that wasn't the case, server populations would have wild fluctuations, which tends to kill the game from both a gameplay and business point of view. Even F2P games want you playing, and playing a lot, since your desire to spend money on whatever in-game would theoretically be stronger the more you play. And despite the 'free' status, these companies would very much like it if you passed a few bucks their way.

    The folks that don't agree with any variant of the grind model are far better served by playing another genre entirely. And there's tons of other very good games / genres out there suited to such things.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  18. #1078
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    "Why play a multiplayer game if you don't want to play with others?"

    by this logic, every online game with automatic grouping is a single player game.
    No not really. My post wasn't specifically about LFR. Can you stop focusing on LFR please?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 02:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    From**

    I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. I'm not sure that you're sure what you're talking about.
    Great straw man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  19. #1079
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    And that's what it boils down to. The likes of Justin Bieber/Lady Gaga command a huge segment of the music industry/market despite being poor quality artists.
    The difference is, games are even more expensive to produce than a CD. LK cost several dozen millions iirc, no CD comes that close, only movies do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Sure, it sucks for those who got them to the point they're at today when WoW was a fundamentally different/better game; but Blizzard is a business first, after all.
    I might say, there is still room for niche games, as long as they do not cost an arm and a leg to produce. Hearthstone probably won't reach WoW's figures, but it's a cheap and good way to enter the TCG market even more.

    But what all the "hard MMOs" people want is more than that: they want to have 95% of the playerbase to pay for the game while not having access to most of it, and be worshipped by those 95% because they can spend time in the game. This is just wrong.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  20. #1080
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Woah. I hate to keep jumping in but you need to realize what you're saying. This "unfun stuff" is the blood of an MMO and has always been so. When you find something like this unfun, you go play something else. Sure life is changing but when the hell did that little concept change? You don't show up into an entire genre and demand that it be more fitting for your freetime and enjoyment.

    You don't just roll into Battlefield 3 and demand that they make aiming more automated. If you don't find aiming in a FPS fun, you'd play something else. So why is it that everyone keeps jumping into the most time consuming genre to ever grace videogame history and demand that it be more schedule friendly?

    This must be what going mad feels like.
    Thank God someone said this. If you don't find something unfun, maybe you should make a decision: Is it worth it or should I quit.... You know, instead of changing things.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 02:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    The difference is, games are even more expensive to produce than a CD. LK cost several dozen millions iirc, no CD comes that close, only movies do.



    I might say, there is still room for niche games, as long as they do not cost an arm and a leg to produce. Hearthstone probably won't reach WoW's figures, but it's a cheap and good way to enter the TCG market even more.

    But what all the "hard MMOs" people want is more than that: they want to have 95% of the playerbase to pay for the game while not having access to most of it, and be worshipped by those 95% because they can spend time in the game. This is just wrong.
    This is false, where has anyone said anything like this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

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