It's not Nostalgia.

[melodramocracy]

Care to elaborate on where you got that piece of info from?

Common sense is where I got it.

What's changed about life in the past decades that suddenly makes leisure time suddenly less available? Folks have always had kids, jobs, families, etc. Leisure activities are chosen by many, and some activities are sacrificed for the sake of others, depending on their deemed worth.

Not a hard concept.

[Tomana]

What's changed about life in the past decades that suddenly makes leisure time suddenly less available? Folks have always had kids, jobs, families, etc. Leisure activities are chosen by many, and some activities are sacrificed for the sake of others, depending on their deemed worth.

What did change? For starters, the market of the MMOs. Pre-WoW MMOs had much less subs than WoW, especially in Europe (Asia and Russia are a different story). So, effectively, the MMO players represented a fringe of the population, a fringe of students and "basement dwellers" with a lot of time to spare. Today, MMO players are more representative of the other parts of the population.

Second, we're in a recession since 2008, and this has some consequences too. People who are working are thinking twice before committing to stuff such as raiding, because the impact is not neutral. Life costs go up up up for years now, while the salaries do not necessarily do so.

Third, social networks happened.

Fourth, and most important thing, that changed is the understanding of the fact that leisure time must be that - leisure time. Not "doing totally unfun stuff" time. You may call it instant gratification, but it's really what leisure time is about. Back before the computers era, you went to a football (= soccer) field with friends to play football. You did not go to a football field to gather bugs from the grass for 4 hours before finally playing for 1 hour. You played chess with friends - you didn't spend 4 hours polishing the pieces before playing. In other words, people realised that leisure time must be leisure.

Although, actually, that's not totally correct, because most people always realized that, except again for a tiny fringe of "basement dwellers" (I hate that term but it is quite accurate). It's just that this tiny fringe - which is actually limited in time to people born let's say between 1975 and 1985 - moved out of the "gaming age". And there is no replacement, because people are no longer buying the grinding philosophy.

[Luko]

Fourth, and most important thing, that changed is the understanding of the fact that leisure time must be that - leisure time. Not "doing totally unfun stuff" time. .

Woah. I hate to keep jumping in but you need to realize what you're saying. This "unfun stuff" is the blood of an MMO and has always been so. When you find something like this unfun, you go play something else. Sure life is changing but when the hell did that little concept change? You don't show up into an entire genre and demand that it be more fitting for your freetime and enjoyment.

You don't just roll into Battlefield 3 and demand that they make aiming more automated. If you don't find aiming in a FPS fun, you'd play something else. So why is it that everyone keeps jumping into the most time consuming genre to ever grace videogame history and demand that it be more schedule friendly?

This must be what going mad feels like.

[Tomana]

Woah. I hate to keep jumping in but you need to realize what you're saying. This "unfun stuff" is the blood of an MMO and has always been so. When you find something like this unfun, you go play something else. Sure life is changing but when the hell did that little concept change? You don't show up into an entire genre and demand that it be more fitting for your freetime and enjoyment.

Calling a phenomenon limited in time between let's say 1991 (it's a somewhat arbitrary start - release of NWN) and 2004 (no grindy MMOs went out since except Rift) is stupid. You need to replace things in a historical and social context. So you should not say "This "unfun stuff" is the blood of an MMO and has always been so.", but "The early developers of MMORPGs thought that this stuff was the blood of the MMOs".

Now, why did this happen? Well, because the first computer devs and their target audience were looking for a substitute to reality, much like the table-top games were before them. The goal was to alienate reality in a fantasy world. However, there is a significant difference between those two: the use of the computer. Computers became more and more common for reasons that were somewhat (but not just) related to games, and more and more people started to want to play games, including MMORPGs. At the same time, the cost of development of a video game rose exponentially, and it was no longer doable to build an MMO in your garage - so, you had to broaden your playerbase a bit.

Consequently, willingly or unwillingly, the developers had to adjust the very concept of an MMORPG. Of course, it didn't happen overnight - it took them several years of resistance, but they gradually realized that people want to actually play the game, not do stupid stuff instead. Again, as I say, most people (except the 1st generation of MMO players) knew that, only some of them didn't. There are of course other factors, such as the emergence of consoles and now mobile games.

But the central concept is this: you cannot defend a concept of doing unfun stuff if you want to interest a somewhat broad audience these days. The costs are just not the same as in 1991 or even 2004.

[Austilias]

But the central concept is this: you cannot defend a concept of doing unfun stuff if you want to interest a somewhat broad audience these days. The costs are just not the same as in 1991 or even 2004.

And that's what it boils down to. The likes of Justin Bieber/Lady Gaga command a huge segment of the music industry/market despite being poor quality artists. In the same way, Blizzard wants to command an even greater segment of the gaming industry/market by appealing to the lowest common denominator.

Sure, it sucks for those who got them to the point they're at today when WoW was a fundamentally different/better game; but Blizzard is a business first, after all.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Maybe they just want those drops so they can stop doing mindless crap and have more free time to raid normal or player vs player. Gear should honestly come from a point system like conquest gear. It makes no sense that I could run ICC for 2 months but only get 1 upgrade. Which got me sat it was stupid.

This is how RPGs in general have worked. RNG is a part of them, especially games that have loot drops as part of the gearing system.

If the "majority" of the fan base dislikes so many things about the game, why do they even play? "i'll be damned if painting fences isn't fun for me by the time I'm done complaining!"

I'd swear you're disagreeing with me, but nothing you said contradicts anything I said.

You said you can't figure out the best talent to pick in the new system, I said, you clearly can in most instances. (Similar to how old talents worked)

[melodramocracy]

What did change? For starters, the market of the MMOs.

The perception of the players who make up the market has has changed, as I originally stated.

Pre-WoW MMOs had much less subs than WoW, especially in Europe (Asia and Russia are a different story). So, effectively, the MMO players represented a fringe of the population, a fringe of students and "basement dwellers" with a lot of time to spare. Today, MMO players are more representative of the other parts of the population.

And as I stated above, the people playing this game now don't play less than they did 5,6 years ago, they simply do more with more characters. So that isn't the issue.

Second, we're in a recession since 2008, and this has some consequences too. People who are working are thinking twice before committing to stuff such as raiding, because the impact is not neutral. Life costs go up up up for years now, while the salaries do not necessarily do so.

If the economy had an impact on the game, you'd see it reflected in subs, not in the amount of time it takes to accomplish a given task. Cata sub drops certainly do coincide with economical issues, but the community seems to almost unanimously feel that the content cause the small exodus. So money isn't the issue either.

Third, social networks happened.

What does this have to do with anything? Social networking has been around longer than WoW has, so that is rather irrelevant. Unless you're trying to say that folks spend their leisure time facebooking rather than playing video games, which is a larger issue than just this game.

Fourth, and most important thing, that changed is the understanding of the fact that leisure time must be that - leisure time. Not "doing totally unfun stuff" time. You may call it instant gratification, but it's really what leisure time is about. Back before the computers era, you went to a football (= soccer) field with friends to play football. You did not go to a football field to gather bugs from the grass for 4 hours before finally playing for 1 hour. You played chess with friends - you didn't spend 4 hours polishing the pieces before playing. In other words, people realised that leisure time must be leisure.

Chess and football at local levels are awful games, with absolutely no reward for a win. (sarcasm). Actually, video games in general, especially consoles, have had a much bigger impact on such activities over decades than just WoW itself. So that isn't it either. And getting good, progressing, or accomplishing anything (whatever you want to call it) in either of your example activities requires a lot of time and effort, and doing a lot of un-fun, often repetitive stuff. Studying and memorizing chess strats likely isn't considered 'fun' in and of itself, nor is football practice. They are means to a hopefully gratifying end.

Although, actually, that's not totally correct, because most people always realized that, except again for a tiny fringe of "basement dwellers" (I hate that term but it is quite accurate). It's just that this tiny fringe - which is actually limited in time to people born let's say between 1975 and 1985 - moved out of the "gaming age". And there is no replacement, because people are no longer buying the grinding philosophy.

But millions do buy the grinding philosophy, because that's the essence OF an MMORPG, especially a sub based one. If that wasn't the case, server populations would have wild fluctuations, which tends to kill the game from both a gameplay and business point of view. Even F2P games want you playing, and playing a lot, since your desire to spend money on whatever in-game would theoretically be stronger the more you play. And despite the 'free' status, these companies would very much like it if you passed a few bucks their way.

The folks that don't agree with any variant of the grind model are far better served by playing another genre entirely. And there's tons of other very good games / genres out there suited to such things.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

"Why play a multiplayer game if you don't want to play with others?"

by this logic, every online game with automatic grouping is a single player game.

No not really. My post wasn't specifically about LFR. Can you stop focusing on LFR please?

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 02:16 PM ----------

From**

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. I'm not sure that you're sure what you're talking about.

Great straw man.

[Tomana]

And that's what it boils down to. The likes of Justin Bieber/Lady Gaga command a huge segment of the music industry/market despite being poor quality artists.

The difference is, games are even more expensive to produce than a CD. LK cost several dozen millions iirc, no CD comes that close, only movies do.

Sure, it sucks for those who got them to the point they're at today when WoW was a fundamentally different/better game; but Blizzard is a business first, after all.

I might say, there is still room for niche games, as long as they do not cost an arm and a leg to produce. Hearthstone probably won't reach WoW's figures, but it's a cheap and good way to enter the TCG market even more.

But what all the "hard MMOs" people want is more than that: they want to have 95% of the playerbase to pay for the game while not having access to most of it, and be worshipped by those 95% because they can spend time in the game. This is just wrong.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Woah. I hate to keep jumping in but you need to realize what you're saying. This "unfun stuff" is the blood of an MMO and has always been so. When you find something like this unfun, you go play something else. Sure life is changing but when the hell did that little concept change? You don't show up into an entire genre and demand that it be more fitting for your freetime and enjoyment.

You don't just roll into Battlefield 3 and demand that they make aiming more automated. If you don't find aiming in a FPS fun, you'd play something else. So why is it that everyone keeps jumping into the most time consuming genre to ever grace videogame history and demand that it be more schedule friendly?

This must be what going mad feels like.

Thank God someone said this. If you don't find something unfun, maybe you should make a decision: Is it worth it or should I quit.... You know, instead of changing things.

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 02:28 PM ----------

The difference is, games are even more expensive to produce than a CD. LK cost several dozen millions iirc, no CD comes that close, only movies do.



I might say, there is still room for niche games, as long as they do not cost an arm and a leg to produce. Hearthstone probably won't reach WoW's figures, but it's a cheap and good way to enter the TCG market even more.

But what all the "hard MMOs" people want is more than that: they want to have 95% of the playerbase to pay for the game while not having access to most of it, and be worshipped by those 95% because they can spend time in the game. This is just wrong.

This is false, where has anyone said anything like this?

[Tomana]

Thank God someone said this. If you don't find something unfun, maybe you should make a decision: Is it worth it or should I quit.... You know, instead of changing things.

Yes, except that if a lot of people do that, the game effectively dies or is reduced to a ~500K niche, like Rift or Eve.
And once it happens, the game stops for everyone, including you.
Bottom line: you can't analyze a social phenomenon (an MMORPG) from just YOUR point of view, it doesn't work that way.

This is false, where has anyone said anything like this?

What is? The 95% part? Take any "vanilla was better" thread on this forum, and you'll find stuff like "yeah, it was cool to be inspected and whispered in Org", "full epixx made you stood out" and everything in that tune.

[Austilias]

But what all the "hard MMOs" people want is more than that: they want to have 95% of the playerbase to pay for the game while not having access to most of it, and be worshipped by those 95% because they can spend time in the game. This is just wrong.

I don't know where you're getting that idea from. I started WoW in late Vanilla/TBC; the most content I ever did was Karazhan/Gruul's Lair with my guild who, whilst not being the most skilled, were nonetheless a gathering of friends. I didn't praise "good players" because they wanted me to; I gave them respect because they were better at the game than me, in the same way that i'd respect a teacher/lecturer in real life. I did not begrudge them the content they did, despite not seeing it until after TBC; I did the content I was most suited to, as did they, and I enjoyed myself because what I did, despite being T4, was challenging. The fact that there was content there that I would likely never see only further motivated me, as opposed to demotivating me; and even if I never saw it until WOTLK, the sense of satisfaction was more than satisfying.

Nowadays however, people think their subscription fee entitles them to more than the liberty of creating/playing a character on a WoW server; they believe it entitles them to see everything, do everything and to have everything. It is a new and unsightly breed of gamer, the likes of which isn't really seen beyond an MMO; to my knowledge, I have no clear/vivid memories of console gamers being as entitled as MMO gamers have become, and demanding that their game cater to them, rather than rising to the challenge of the game.

You are correct however; there are several mindsets that exist when it comes to WoW these days, and they are at odds with one another. For now I simply await a release that might better reflect the WoW of several years ago.

[Zantera]

Personally, I feel like all expansions has brought in a few good features or ideas that have somehow made the game better. Not all ideas, but there's a cool little feature in pretty much all of the expansions that has made the game better. On the whole, most (if not all) changes to the game has been to make the game easier or more accessible. No, I'm not talking about how hard raiding was back then vs how it is now, I'm talking more about small mechanics like learning spells at a class trainer, earning gold for mounts and so on. The little things.

While many changes have made the games easier and more simple, that's not necessarily something that makes it better. I can really miss the days of TBC when I had to go to the big cities to do certain things. It was a big deal to go to the class trainer and learn some new spells, or saving money for riding skill and mounts, which was really cool as well. I even miss the little rooms with the Battleground NPCs, because all the PVP:ers would gather in there to queue up for different battlegrounds. Now you just queue up, no matter where you are. I guess it's easier and more simple, but it wasn't exactly hard in the first place.

It's a bit similar with dungeons really. I know it could be a nightmare to find people for a dungeon, sometimes even impossible. But in the end, it felt so much more rewarding when you found 4 other players, you got to the summon stone to summon everyone, and the exciting feeling afterwards was really sweet. Now you just queue up. And in some ways that is cool, because you get the stuff done without having to look for a group for 2 hours. But on the other hand, that feeling of accomplishment is lost in the progress.

And another thing I really miss, quest-"bosses" actually being bosses. I'm talking about npcs like the animals in stranglethorn, the elite ones. Group quests, or possibly soloable if you really knew what you were doing. Now, everything is pretty much nerfed to the point where there are no quest elites, and the named mobs are not tougher than normal ones. Again, this was a change to make it easier, but it wasn't really that hard to begin with, and it made you feel awesome that you could potentially solo or 2-man a certain npc that was for a groupquest. Made you feel like you knew your class well.

So for me it's not so much about every little feature being better back in TBC than it is now. TBC had a lot of stuff that would be considered annoying, but it also had a certain feeling, or atmosphere if you will. The game is very different now, and while some of it is for the better, I sometimes miss that sense of "everyday epic experiences" that you could experience back in TBC.

[Coombs]

Common sense is where I got it.

What's changed about life in the past decades that suddenly makes leisure time suddenly less available? Folks have always had kids, jobs, families, etc. Leisure activities are chosen by many, and some activities are sacrificed for the sake of others, depending on their deemed worth.

Not a hard concept.

When I raided in TBC my entire guild was compromised of couples and people with full time jobs and children. I was one of the youngest in the guild at 23 and they were all 30+. We raided 4-5 nights a week and cleared sunwell before WoTLK. Obviously only children with hours and hours of time who are hardcore could have achieved that back in the day... People arguing against leisure time changing in the past 5 years don't know what the fuck they are talking about.

[Tomana]

And as I stated above, the people playing this game now don't play less than they did 5,6 years ago, they simply do more with more characters.

In MOP? I doubt that very much. What you think of is the period between 4.3 and MOP where people did LFR DS on several alts simply because there was not much else to do.

If the economy had an impact on the game, you'd see it reflected in subs, not in the amount of time it takes to accomplish a given task. Cata sub drops certainly do coincide with economical issues, but the community seems to almost unanimously feel that the content cause the small exodus. So money isn't the issue either.

Well, it may be one of the reasons that the total SubMMO market is stalling since 2008. There are several others of course.

What does this have to do with anything? Social networking has been around longer than WoW has, so that is rather irrelevant.

Not at today's scales. Not at the scale of Facebook games as well.

Chess and football at local levels are awful games, with absolutely no reward for a win. (sarcasm). Actually, video games in general, especially consoles, have had a much bigger impact on such activities over decades than just WoW itself. So that isn't it either. And getting good, progressing, or accomplishing anything (whatever you want to call it) in either of your example activities requires a lot of time and effort, and doing a lot of un-fun, often repetitive stuff. Studying and memorizing chess strats likely isn't considered 'fun' in and of itself, nor is football practice. They are means to a hopefully gratifying end.

How many occasional chess players actually read books and learn strats? Not many. Same things: a minority learns strats and plays, while a majority just wants to play.

But millions do buy the grinding philosophy, because that's the essence OF an MMORPG, especially a sub based one.

Where can I find those millions please? In EU/US, there are almost no such games left.

[SodiumChloride]

People who would have guild raided will find that it's a waste of time simply because LFR is easier.

You have to fight the game itself to make a good guild, and that's not fair.

But it's fair to force people to have a "less suitable" experience?

[Tomana]

When I raided in TBC my entire guild was compromised of couples and people with full time jobs and children. I was one of the youngest in the guild at 23 and they were all 30+. We raided 4-5 nights a week and cleared sunwell before WoTLK. Obviously only children with hours and hours of time who are hardcore could have achieved that back in the day... People arguing against leisure time changing in the past 5 years don't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Assuming this is true, you seem to forget one important piece of information: WoW BC was already much more casual than the previous generation of MMOs. I would really like to see someone pull stuff like that with LA or EQ.

Also, you miss another thing: people you played with were not the same generation as the people playing now. A lot of stuff changed in between.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Yes, except that if a lot of people do that, the game effectively dies or is reduced to a ~500K niche, like Rift or Eve.
And once it happens, the game stops for everyone, including you.
Bottom line: you can't analyze a social phenomenon (an MMORPG) from just YOUR point of view, it doesn't work that way.


What is? The 95% part? Take any "vanilla was better" thread on this forum, and you'll find stuff like "yeah, it was cool to be inspected and whispered in Org", "full epixx made you stood out" and everything in that tune.

Yeah, sure, 1/1081 posts might have something like this, but none recently, and none that you have responded to that I've seen in the last page.

You're right, it could be a social phenomenon, but I doubt Rift is at 500k because of anything you said, and I doubt would be if they made things a little differently either. (You know, not focusing on convenience)

[Vintersol]

Nowadays however, people think their subscription fee entitles them to more than the liberty of creating/playing a character on a WoW server; they believe it entitles them to see everything, do everything and to have everything. It is a new and unsightly breed of gamer, the likes of which isn't really seen beyond an MMO; to my knowledge, I have no clear/vivid memories of console gamers being as entitled as MMO gamers have become, and demanding that their game cater to them, rather than rising to the challenge of the game.

This. But i have to say, that this mindset of "here, u can haz 15 Bucks /13 Euros to cater me everything is handmade by Blizzard. Back in the days of vanilla, there were guilds that found AQ40 Bosses too difficult to handle. Blizzards answer was: If it's too strong, you are to weak. Go and farm BWL until your raid is suitable gearwise. At WotLK, blizzard himself told us that they don't want build content for 5% of the playerbase. Now the scrubs parroting that 5% argument in every way... assimilation successful. ^^

[Tomana]

Yeah, sure, 1/1081 posts might have something like this, but none recently, and none that you have responded to that I've seen in the last page.

Define "recently", it was a couple of months back

You're right, it could be a social phenomenon, but I doubt Rift is at 500k because of anything you said, and I doubt would be if they made things a little differently either. (You know, not focusing on convenience)

No one should ever reduce anything to only 1 reason. Sure, there are other reasons that Rift is 500k only. But focusing only on hardcore players is one of them.
Look also at TERA for example: it didn't work even in Korea, not to mention EU/US.